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The Blue Post Thread: Mists Edition


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#1 Aldriana

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 12:29 AM

In the interest of keeping the forums organized, any blue post regarding rogues that is being copied to these forums should be posted only in this thread. Before copying such a post into this thread, please make sure it hasn't already been posted. Please do not copy/paste blue threads anywhere else unless you are also providing significant additional analysis relevant to the thread's content.

Feel free to also use this thread for basic discussion of changes, but please try to be constructive about it. Whining about nerfs, asking for specific gear advice in light of the changes, and any other behavior that would get you an infraction anywhere else of the forums will still get you an infraction here.

#2 Rfeann

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 06:07 PM

Alrighty, assuming it's fine to use this thread as an archive dump (since the following has already been referred to in another thread), I'll start this blue party with the following tidbit from Ghostcrawler last night in the Beta Classes forum, which may ever-so-slightly impact our mob-number cutoff regarding when to switch from single-target damage (or BF damage) to some semblance of an AoE rotation:

Rogues needed a rather significant boost to their sustained AoE damage. We opted to give that to them in the form of buffing something that was previously primarily there for utility, not damage, by a very large amount, turning it into a major damage button. We increased the damage of Crimson Tempest’s DoT by 700%.



#3 Rfeann

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 03:21 AM

I'm sure y'all have seen it already, but the existence of this thread, coupled with my own obsessive-compulsive desire to compile everything that anyone of note says about rogues, leaves me compelled to quote from today's batch of official Patch 5.0.5 hotfixes:

  • Crimson Tempest should now stack correctly with Sanguinary Veins and Mastery: Executioner.
  • Cheat Death can now only absorb up to twice the rogue's maximum health.


It's time to come back down to earth now, you crazy shining Sub AoE diamonds.

#4 Rfeann

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 04:47 PM

As jtstormrage noted in this "Mists of Pandaria: All Specs" thread post, and I put here due to aforementioned mental stability issues, this is from the Sept. 20 update to the official Patch 5.0.5 hotfix notes:

Sanguinary Vein now provides at 16% damage increase (down from 20%).


They should call hotfixes "coldfixes" when they involve damage reductions.

#5 rayanne

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:08 AM

To be fair, I remain impartial in that I always have to (and want to) take the broad view when considering class issues. I also know that you guys are frustrated, but the hard truth is that, even before Legendary weapon hijinks, Rogues needed some adjustment.

Still, we want every class to feel fun and satisfying to play, and I wanted to drop by and find out some specifics regarding why you guys are sad.

Edit: Please don't exaggerate the issues, by the way. It's much easier to relay information when I'm not trying to separate fact from fiction.


Not sure where to post this. They are taking feedback on our class in official forums.

#6 koaschten

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 10:51 PM

Not sure where to post this. They are taking feedback on our class in official forums.


Please always post a source link.

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#7 Rfeann

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 03:19 AM

Another day, another somewhat relevant hotfix for PvE rogues; this one's from the Oct. 12 additions to the official hotfix notes for 5.0.5.

The Windsong and Elemental Force weapon enchantments can now be activated by periodic effects.


I wasn't aware of any reports that either enchant was performing below its expected proc frequency for rogues in particular, but I'll be curious as all get-out to know if there's a noticeable impact from this fix. (Or if it turns out like my archnemesis, the Zen Alchemist Satan Stone, and the reported fix has no apparent effect at all.)

#8 koaschten

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:10 AM

The periodic proc fix seems to work, as it procs perfectly fine from recuperate ticks.
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#9 Pathal

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:57 PM

Windsong and Elemental Force Information - Forums - World of Warcraft

We recently hotfixed the Windsong and Elemental Force weapon enchants to improve their performance for many users. The important part for most players is that Windsong is now is a useful enchant for all classes and specs, since it will trigger on all damage or healing, be it spell, melee, or ranged, and direct or periodic. Elemental Force will also trigger from all damage, so is useful for all damage dealers.

Additionally, these two enchants use a new system for triggering, which we wanted to give some details on. These are the gritty details, which you do not need to understand in order to use these enchants, but we wanted to detail for the benefit of the theorycrafting community. If mathy simulations and modeling aren’t your thing, none of this will matter much to you.

We have had various methods for triggering procs throughout WoW’s history. Most procs fall into two categories for the past few years:

  • Relatively high but static proc chance, with a significant cooldown. Most trinkets and caster procs fall into this category. For example, a trinket may have a 30% chance to proc on hit, with a 55sec cooldown. This lets us balance the trinket with a pretty safe assumption of procing about once per minute. Unfortunately, since it’s so reliable, it doesn’t really feel like a random proc, but rather like an On Use trinket that’s just on auto-cast. The uptime won’t increase significantly with any stats with this type of proc.
  • Relatively low proc chance with some normalization based on weapon speed, typically referred to as ‘PPM’ (procs per minute). Most melee weapon enchants fall into this category. For example, a weapon enchant may have 3 PPM. That checks your weapon speed, and gives your attacks a % chance based on that. If you have a 3.6speed weapon, your attacks will have a 3(PPM) * 3.6(weaponspeed) / 60 (sec per min) = 18% chance. All your white and yellow attacks with that weapon will have an 18% chance to trigger the enchant. Despite being supposedly ‘3 PPM’, that really will result in significantly more than 3 procs per minute, since all of the special attacks can proc it. Since there is no cooldown involved here, this type of enchant can feel random and streaky, instead of reliable. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing though, as you are just as likely to get lucky and get several procs in a row, which can be exciting. Some stats, primarily haste, will increase the frequency of these procs. However, since they vary heavily based on weapon speed, and how many special attacks you’re doing, these can procing significantly more or less for one class/spec/weapon than another, making them difficult to balance.

So, there are pros and cons of both of those types of procs. We’re trying a new system for these enchants. This new system, nicknamed Real PPM, aims to give the random nature of procs, the scaling with haste, and the ability for us to balance them assuming a standard proc frequency. Here’s the short version of how you can expect them to function:

  • Windsong is 2 Real PPM. Elemental Force is 10 Real PPM.
  • Regardless of how you’re attacking or healing, slow or fast, with DoTs or direct heals, whatever, you can expect to get the same proc frequency, on average.
  • Dual wielding and having both weapons enchanted with the same enchant will double the frequency of procs that you get.
  • This Real PPM is increased by your haste %. (The highest of your melee, ranged, or spell haste is chosen).
  • Simple as that. Whether you’re an Affliction Warlock dealing very frequent DoT ticks and Malefic Grasp ticks, or a Holy Paladin casting purely Holy Lights, or a Combat Rogue quickly attacking and using specials, or an Enhancement Shaman attacking with slow melee attacks and spells, or a Shadow Priest channeling Mind Sear on fifty Onyxian Whelps, you’ll get 2*Haste Windsong procs or 10*Haste Elemental Force procs per enchant per minute.
  • We’re excited to see how this proc system works out. If it works well, we may start using it for more types of procs. Feedback about how it feels is most welcome.

Here are even more nitty gritty details, if you’re interested:

  • It can proc from any damage/healing event. It keeps track of the last time it had a chance to proc for that enchant.
  • It calculates the difference in time since the last chance to proc. It uses that time to determine the chance for that event to trigger a proc.[/li][li]For example, if you have 22% Haste, it was 1.4sec since the last chance to proc, and you’ve got Windsong, then the chance to proc is 2(ppm) * 1.22(haste) * 1.4(time since last chance) / 60 (sec per min) = 5.693%.
  • The ‘time since the last chance to proc’ is capped at 10sec, so that your first attack of a fight isn’t a guaranteed proc.

If you have any questions about this, please feel free to post them here, and we’ll try to answer them.



#10 Viper

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:39 PM

Windsong and Elemental Force Information - Forums - World of Warcraft

In 5.1, we’re migrating four additional procs over to the Real PPM system. Dancing Steel and Jade Spirit are 2 Real PPM, River's Song is 4 Real PPM, and Colossus is 6 Real PPM.



#11 Viper

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:52 PM

Since this keeps coming up in the past week or so,

Rogue
•Anticipation now generates the correct number of combo points when Crimson Tempest is used.

Source: Patch 5.1 Hotfixes - November 27 - World of Warcraft

#12 koaschten

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:13 PM

Mutilate, Killing Spree, and Fan of Knives once again apply poisons correctly.

Source: Patch 5.1 Hotfixes - November 28 - World of Warcraft
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#13 Moritsume

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:19 AM

This explains the reports of Dancing Steel not allowing for dual-procs,

The change to Dancing Steel is actually part of its status as a Real Proc Per Minute (RPMM) system, which was in the patch notes.

The Dancing Steel, Jade Spirit, Colossus, and River’s Song enchantments now use the Real PPM system utilized by Windsong and Elemental Force.


You can read more about how RPMM works here: Windsong and Elemental Force Information - Forums - World of Warcraft

Dual wielding with a RPMM enchants means that you'll get double the frequency of procs, but the system doesn't currently allow for double active procs.


Source: 5.1: What did you break about rogues, Blizz? - Forums - World of Warcraft

#14 Torima

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:56 PM

Posted in another thread and should have gone here about dancing steal now being able to double proc.

Good news, everyone!

As I mentioned, we've been investigating the possibility of altering the Real PPM system to allow double procs. It hadn't been done previously due to technical challenges, but we found a solution much faster than expected, and we're currently working on a hotfix to allow Real PPM enchantments to proc separately per weapon.

Yes, this means that if everything goes smoothly, you'll soon be able to have two simultaneous Dancing Steel procs, or (very rarely) six simultaneous Windsong procs.g



#15 Rfeann

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:08 PM

Posted in another thread and should have gone here about dancing steal now being able to double proc.

Just to be clear: Daxxarri's follow-up post was not about Dancing Steel *now* being able to double proc. It was a statement that an improvement to the Real PPM proc mechanic was in the works that *will* allow Dancing Steel (as well as Windsong and all other Real PPM procs) to double proc if the enchant is put on both of our weapons.

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#16 chultt

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:38 PM

Just to be clear: Daxxarri's follow-up post was not about Dancing Steel *now* being able to double proc. It was a statement that an improvement to the Real PPM proc mechanic was in the works that *will* allow Dancing Steel (as well as Windsong and all other Real PPM procs) to double proc if the enchant is put on both of our weapons.


It was hotifxed in last night, actually. I caught it mid raid doubling up. I'm not certain if Windsong was as well, as I don't use it currently.

#17 Rfeann

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:51 AM

Aaand here's the official bit:

Enchantments using the Real PPM system will now generate two buffs simultaneously, rather than simply refreshing the duration of an existing effect.


That's from the 11/29 update to the official 5.1 hotfix notes.

Sorry for misinterpreting your earlier post, chultt!

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#18 snowman2050

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:15 AM

Taken from developer interview with Ghostcrawler.

- Patch 5.2 will bring more talent changes than Patch 5.1, but they will mostly be number tweaks. Rogue talents were mentioned as something that needs to be looked at.

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#19 Rfeann

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:03 PM

From last night's additions to the official Patch 5.1 hotfix notes:

Enchant Weapon: Elemental Force will no longer incorrectly activate from healing effects, and can only be triggered by damaging melee attacks or spells.

This should hopefully mark an end to those embarrassing moments when a rogue has been stealthed, with Recuperate rolling, sneaking ever-so-expertly up on her unsuspecting prey, when ELEMENTAL FORCE PROC BAM, and suddenly she's got a big ol' "here I am" target painted on her back.

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#20 Rigapples

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:33 PM

Here is the link to the 5.2 notes. (Official Forums and MMO links)
Patch 5.2 PTR Patch Note Preview - World of Warcraft
Patch 5.2 PTR Patch Note Preview - MMO-Champion BlueTracker

Discussion found here posted by Aldriana:
http://elitistjerks....ges_discussion/




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