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Unholy DPS 5.2 | Thunderstruck


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#21 spambot

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:28 PM

After several failed attempts to find someone on the internet to do the work for me, I went and ran some sims on reg Shin'ka(with gem) vs heroic Starshatter. There was plenty of info for frost but none for unholy so, anyway, according to my sims heroic Starshatter is roughly 300dps better. Not really all the surprising, but thought I'd share.

Also while I'm here, as far as raid strats go
ams and lichborne make you immune to breath of fear on Sha of Fear
desecrated ground makes you immune to amber prison on Wind Lord (its worth noting that I don't really know if this prevents you from trapping other people if you're too close as I've never been willing to wipe my raid to find out)
ams makes you immune to visions of demise on Empress (haven't tried lichborne for this one, but it might work too)

#22 Mendenbarr

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:56 AM

After several failed attempts to find someone on the internet to do the work for me, I went and ran some sims on reg Shin'ka(with gem) vs heroic Starshatter. There was plenty of info for frost but none for unholy so, anyway, according to my sims heroic Starshatter is roughly 300dps better. Not really all the surprising, but thought I'd share.

Also while I'm here, as far as raid strats go
ams and lichborne make you immune to breath of fear on Sha of Fear
desecrated ground makes you immune to amber prison on Wind Lord (its worth noting that I don't really know if this prevents you from trapping other people if you're too close as I've never been willing to wipe my raid to find out)
ams makes you immune to visions of demise on Empress (haven't tried lichborne for this one, but it might work too)


All these tips and more are available over at the advanced frost thread, which I'm considering making non-spec specific.

As far as the weapons, I ran the sims as well, and I'm getting different results:
I didn't reforge either weapons, or worry about the rest of the gear much, what do you specify as the other inputs?
Posted Image


Here's my code:
Spoiler




Edit: Yes, orc racial is included, I'll try re-running with a belf instead.

I re-ran with undead, changing nothing but the race, and removing blood fury from the rotation.
Same results, but less striking.

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#23 spambot

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:12 AM

Interesting. I just simmed my current gear and switched out the weapons. Didn't add any reforges or anything.
Did you include the orc racial with Shin'ka?

#24 Turyal

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 12:22 AM

I was overlooking the BiS and im a bit confused about a certain part. Wouldn't it be better to get the legs from MSV that has TONS of haste on them instead of the shoulders? The Tier shoulders got really good stats on them so i don't really understand the means to go for the 4 set with shoulder non-set, instead of the legs non-set. Is it the fact that we loose too much expertise without the Tier legs or something else? A detailed explanation of it all would be very much appreciated.

Would also like to add that on gara'jal, You can use AMZ on the tank instead of the raid as a way to prevent all that shadow dmg done to the tank being spread to everyone with totem on em. This way AMZ wont be used up straight away by 1 wave of shadowbolts from the adds on the raid, and it will prevent that dreaded instant death of raid members when the tank get hits like a truck from both boss shadow kicks and the adds shadowbolts. It really helped us out. Sure you can use it on the raid but i would have to say it is alot better to use it as a tank CD, Atleast before you bring the boss to 20%. AMZ has a 2min cd so its no problem having it back for the last 20% burst phase.

#25 Mendenbarr

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 07:41 AM

I was overlooking the BiS and im a bit confused about a certain part. Wouldn't it be better to get the legs from MSV that has TONS of haste on them instead of the shoulders? The Tier shoulders got really good stats on them so i don't really understand the means to go for the 4 set with shoulder non-set, instead of the legs non-set. Is it the fact that we loose too much expertise without the Tier legs or something else? A detailed explanation of it all would be very much appreciated.

Would also like to add that on gara'jal, You can use AMZ on the tank instead of the raid as a way to prevent all that shadow dmg done to the tank being spread to everyone with totem on em. This way AMZ wont be used up straight away by 1 wave of shadowbolts from the adds on the raid, and it will prevent that dreaded instant death of raid members when the tank get hits like a truck from both boss shadow kicks and the adds shadowbolts. It really helped us out. Sure you can use it on the raid but i would have to say it is alot better to use it as a tank CD, Atleast before you bring the boss to 20%. AMZ has a 2min cd so its no problem having it back for the last 20% burst phase.


Heartless explains this in the OP

The level 90 BiS list has been slightly tricky. Generally when making a BiS list, we would choose each item per slot based on the highest DPS, list them all out, and reforge it however we desired. There is a problematic trend with this tier though because a lot of high-end pieces have incredibly high cap stat ratings. When I say 'high' I mean 600, 700, 800 hit rating per piece before you even socket the gems. When it takes 2550 rating (at most) to cap melee hit, we run into a serious overcapping issue. It's not any stretch of the imagination that you could end up with ~4000 hit rating if you weren't mindful of it. Yikes, right? So the dilemma is simply this: some items are amazing on an individual basis but they rapidly devalue when viewed within the reality of a full gear set. Therefore, I've selected items that are still excellent (second pick if not the top individual pick) because they give valuable non-cap stats and better socket colors/bonuses. In the end, this allowed for a higher, cumulative DPS potential by reducing as much stat waste as possible.

A sample reforging and gem setup is provided here (via Wowhead). You'll notice that in a few cases, I avoided the socket bonus if it contributed to overcapping hit. Enchants have been eschewed as well as belt buckles. I leave that explanation to my previous data tables for gearing.



The tier legs have expertise and mastery, which while are in no way amazing, don't have hit. Switching to the legs from will adds a fair amount of hit, and requires the tier shoulders, which also have hit on them. It seems well within reason to be around 2550 with an upgrade or two with the OP's BiS list, but taking the non-set legs puts you up to about 3k rating after reforging as much as possible away and before item upgrades, which only make the problem worse.


As far as your second point, a quick trip over to the blood thread shows that, sadly AMZ does nothing for shadowy attacks

AMZ doesn't work on shadowy attacks, similar to AMS and our blood shield because they are all absorbs. Tanking Gara'jal in heroic modes requires an adjusted Death Strike playstyle, placing shields on the melee attack before and after each shadowy attack, preventing your voodoo'd raid members from being two shot. Until they change the fight either through a hotfix to make blood shield work on shadowy attacks (don't hold your breath) or just a flat out nerf, this plus proper cooldown mapping (including externals) is pretty much the only way you can safely tank 25H gara. (not sure about 10m, but from what i hear it isn't nearly as big of an issue)



#26 Turyal

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 12:13 PM

Thanks for the reply! I should probably have given it a more thorough read about the OP part. As for gara jal, I was refering to using it for other tanks and not yourself as a dk. Im unholy dps in our guild and our druid tank really appreciate me using amz on him. If what you say about his shadow attacks can't be absorbed by amz, then it would indeed be better to use it on the raid. It is just that it worked out really well for us.

#27 Charybdis

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:10 AM

MMO-C datamined set bonuses:

Item - Death Knight T15 DPS 2P Bonus (New) Your attacks have a chance to raise the spirit of a fallen Zandalari as your Death Knight minion for 15 sec.
Item - Death Knight T15 DPS 4P Bonus (New) Increases the duration of Army of the Dead by 15 sec.

The 2p could work fairly well as-is assuming they get the numbers right and the minion doesn't replace the ghoul or cause other assorted problems.

The 4p has to be a placeholder. Adding more time to a 10 minute CD doesn't change it being a 10 min CD, and them making a set bonus around a typically once-per-fight ability is just plain odd even if the numbers are such that it keeps up with expected DPS bonuses.

#28 Rixin

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:36 AM

The 2p could work fairly well as-is assuming they get the numbers right and the minion doesn't replace the ghoul or cause other assorted problems.


IIRC garg, blood worms, frost and blood ghouls are minions the unholy one is a pet. Should work just like army just more little guys following you around doing your bidding :)

#29 Otou

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 01:37 PM

The 4p has to be a placeholder. Adding more time to a 10 minute CD doesn't change it being a 10 min CD, and them making a set bonus around a typically once-per-fight ability is just plain odd even if the numbers are such that it keeps up with expected DPS bonuses.

Considering Army does over 50k dps during it's 35~ sec active time, increasing that to 50 seconds is pretty amazing.

It's a lot of damage during that minute of combat, it's just not amazing versus 10 minutes of Patchwerk. However, most fights aren't Patchwerk, and you can usually expect burn phases/damage buffs to take advantage of. It's a really solid 4pc bonus, when you start thinking of creative ways to use it.

#30 Nangz

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:15 PM

By my check, its also the first tier bonus since TOC that clearly benefits unholy more than frost.

On the army specific mechanics, the change to tooltip of it lasting 40 seconds isn't a change but just a tooltip description, thus this 4 piece comes down to a 37.5% increase in duration.

Simcraft shows that army deals this much damage per spec.

Spec | Current | 4 Piece | Increase
DW Frost BIS: |3.7% |5.0875% |1.3875%
2h Frost BIS: | 4% | 5.5% | 1.5%
Unholy BIS: | 5.6% | 7.75 | 2.1%



The number isn't exactly as striking as say, this tier's bonus disparity, however it exists, and it looks nice ^.^



Off the topic of the future tier bonuses and onto current fights i've been experimenting with an opening that seems to differ what i've come to understand is the "common" opening.

Army
Prepot
Pull
Icy Touch
Plague Strike
normal rotation until trinket procs
Outbreak
UF+Gargoyle
normal rotation

Recently i've been switching Prepot and Army in order to get an army buffed by my prepot. This still gives enough time to have my Outbreak and Gargoyle buffed by the pot but i'm curious if the 4 second duration lost by the army channel is worth it vs the 4 extra seconds of rotation under UF as per the opening listed above.

edit: thx for the table format. I nub.

#31 Mendenbarr

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:52 PM

On the army specific mechanics, the change to tooltip of it lasting 40 seconds isn't a change but just a tooltip description, thus this 4 piece comes down to a 37.5% increase in duration.







As far as army goes keep in mind that first, as Otou mentioned, while army lasts 40 seconds, it's only active for about 35, as the stupid ghouls take a few seconds before they do anything, which means it's closer to ~42% increase in duration then a 37.5% increase. This is offset by the fact that you'd normally have bloodlust/heroism up for the duration of army, in addition to a pot, trinket or two, and any other cds. These are all likely over by the end of the normal army duration, leaving the ~42% increased duration to be a significantly lower damage increase.

How low? A quick simcraft unholy BiS with army taken out shows us that unholy bursts at 150k, and averages 104k, and dips to about 95k at the 40 second point in a fight. Assuming one armies on the pull, the dmg of army would drop to about ~70% of what it is during the first 40 seconds with a lust, pot, and cds/trinket procs. Another sim with army shows that it averages 81k dps for unholy, and 70% of that would be 56.7k for an extra 15 seconds, or 850k every 10 minutes.
On a fight exactly 10 minutes long, that is a 01.70% increase, on a fight 5 minutes long, it's a 03.31% increase, and on a fight with a 100 second duration, it's a 08.57% increase.


Recently i've been switching Prepot and Army in order to get an army buffed by my prepot. This still gives enough time to have my Outbreak and Gargoyle buffed by the pot but i'm curious if the 4 second duration lost by the army channel is worth it vs the 4 extra seconds of rotation under UF as per the opening listed above.

edit: thx for the table format. I nub.


As far as potting before army, it's a bad idea because army ghouls change dynamically with your stats, meaning that potting after casting army still grants the ghouls the strength boost.

#32 Otou

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:19 AM

The Risen Zandalari from the T15 2 pc bonus, is confirmed to be a guardian. It deals the same damage as a normal DK ghoul, and also benefits from Unholy's Mastery.

It works using the newer Real PPM system, at a rate of 1 RPPM. There is no artificial limit on the number of Risen Zandalari spawned.

Real PPM works based on haste, and the time since the last proc chance occurred.
It uses the formula: (RPPM * Haste * SecondsSinceLastProcChance) / 60 seconds = Proc Chance per Damage/Heal
(SecondsSinceLastProcChance is capped at 10)

For instance if you have 45% melee haste, and have yet to use any valid damage/heal abilities. You would have:

(1RPPM * 1.45Haste * 10SecondsSinceLastProcChance) / 60 seconds = 24.167% Proc Chance per Damage/Heal

However, RPPM counts up from the last time a proc chance occurred. Let's say you cast a Scourge Strike. Your next damage/heal event 1 second later is a disease tick. The proc chance on that disease tick, is calculated based on the time since your last damage/heal event (Scourge Strike 1 second ago). This happens regardless of whether the Scourge Strike proc'd a Risen Zandalari or not.

(1RPPM * 1.45Haste * 1SecondsSinceLastProcChance) / 60 seconds = 2.4167% Proc Chance per Damage/Heal


#33 CausalXXLinkXx

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:15 AM

EDIT: The Zandalari does physical damage and doesn't benefit from Unholy mastery.

Ghostcrawler edited his post, the summoned Zandalari does not scale with unholy.

#34 Charybdis

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:52 AM

GC added some more information:

Death Knight
- We are changing the 4pc Frost / Unholy set bonus from Army of the Dead to Killing Machine and Sudden Doom proc more often. We don't have numbers yet and it's possible they won't work out. In addition to all the concerns mentioned, it was a really valid point that Army of the Dead is hard to use in Raid Finder, where most of our players experience raids. You rarely get countdowns before a pull and players in general are used to yelling at DKs who use Army because they had a bad experience at some point with the ghoul taunt.


In short, it seems we can kiss any set bonus modifying AotD goodbye since they've realized not everyone thinks it gets used well.

Changing it to work on KM and SD has some interesting effects. Since this is the Unholy thread, I'll go over that.

Increasing SD procs grants even more resources through the L75 talent, will perhaps increase Super Timmy's uptime, and also fill in more GCDs. Chances are it'll actually boost haste since more autoattacks mean more procs and all that fun stuff, if you can spend it all.

The 2p being physical damage means mastery might see a decline relative to other stats. Since it's already on the bottom for level 90 though, it doesn't change much.

#35 Jessamy

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 06:16 PM

Chances are it'll actually boost haste since more autoattacks mean more procs and all that fun stuff, if you can spend it all.

It's more likely to lower the relative value of haste, not raise it. Haste provides four benefits to a death knight. First, it increases your swing speed, giving you more white damage (auto attacks). Second, those extra white attacks give more opportunities for passive abilities to proc. Third, it provides the same benefit to minions. Fourth, it speeds up rune recharging.

The contribution of haste to the first and third of these damage pieces will be the same. But with more free death coils, these will make up slightly less of your total damage. So this lowers the value of haste, but not by much.

The contribution of haste to the second piece will go up slightly. More auto attacks means more chances for sudden doom procs, and a higher proc chance makes this more important.

The fourth piece is where things get interesting. More haste means more runes. Spending more runes means more runic power. More runic power means more death coils. It all adds up to less time waiting to use a damaging ability. Once you become gcd-capped, more haste doesn't help you this way at all. And since you don't have resources available at a steady rate, you're probably already occasionally gcd-capped. More free resources will amplify this effect.

#36 Mendenbarr

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 04:43 PM

As of the latest build on the PTR, SS used on blood runes converted into death runes via FeS refreshed as death runes.

After starting with UUFFBB, the normal rotation ends up leaving runes like this:
UUDFDB
UUDDDD
UUFDDD
UUFFDD
At this point, one FeS would use up a D/F pair, but convert both F runes into D, leaving you back at:
UUDDDD



Edit: While reloading did nothing, Relogging has changed rune behavior back to expected. Unable to replicate results at this time.


In addition, the 2-set tier bonus has been brought down to about .4% for both frost and unholy, each minion summoned melees for 500, claws for 1000, and does about 10k during it's 15 seconds uptime.
All testing done with about 50k ap on the PTR, latest build as of this post.

#37 MagdalenaDK

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 01:38 PM

Patch 5.2 goes Live today, so I'll be updating the Wowhead profiles to reflect Heroic Thunderforged gear as soon as possible. I'll also be updating the meta-gem section to reflect the inclusion of the Capacitive Primal Diamond.
Keep in mind that losing the 3% increased Critical effect (since the Capacitive Diamond doesn't use it) will mean a slight devaluation of the value of the stat, but likely not enough to actually have its place in the stat priority disrupted.

#38 croana

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 01:08 PM

Apologies if I'm repeating someone, but I haven't seen this in my quick scan of the comments and the front of the post hasn't been updated to reflect this change:

1) Plague Strike now applies both Frost Fever and Blood Plague to a target.
2) Icy Touch now procs Reaping.

This means that when we enter an AoE situation, we no longer want to use Festering Strike to convert our frost runes into death runes. Instead, we'll want to just go ahead and apply diseases with either Outbreak or Plague Strike, then use BB/IT twice in conjunction with Death and Decay before continuing into Blood Boil spam. So the rotation or priority should look kind of as follows:

Diseases (Outbreak or PS), spread with BB (assuming Roiling Blood talent), Death and Decay
IT, BB [if FFBB]
IT, BB [if DFDB, at least one D on cooldown]
DC as needed when reaching RP cap
unholy rune spell as needed (SS/SR/Dark Transformation/DnD)
BB spam [if UUDDDD, one U on cooldown]

#39 ryuplaneswalker

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 05:34 AM

I hate to ask, but in your Best in Slot lists you have Uroe and Zerat as the heroic best in slots, wouldn't the Greatsword of Frozen Hells be a better itemized sword for us?

#40 MagdalenaDK

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 10:49 PM

I hate to ask, but in your Best in Slot lists you have Uroe and Zerat as the heroic best in slots, wouldn't the Greatsword of Frozen Hells be a better itemized sword for us?


There's been a great deal of confusion about this items due to lack of knowledge about its source. On the PTR, we had a Thunderforged normal (i.e. ilvl 528) version drop off trash, but assumed that heroic versions wouldn't be attainable, since heroic versions of trash drops do not exist outside of the Black Market Auction House.

Now, however, we're getting reports of the sword being a rare shared loot drop off bosses, in the same style as certain items were in the Firelands raid. Thus, while it's entirely possible that Heroic/Heroic Thunderforged versions of this sword do exist, it is likely too unreliable and rare a drop to seriously consider putting on an attainable loot table.




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