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Unholy DPS 5.2 | Thunderstruck


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#41 Illundai

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 02:15 PM

Eh, I don't know... Jackwar @ The Maelstrom - Community - World of Warcraft
I don't think it's as rare as you think.

#42 MagdalenaDK

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 04:47 AM

With the changes to RPPM trinkets and the very real existence of the Festerblight playstyle (covered in Mendenbarr's "Advanced DK tactics" post), it looks like Spark of Zandalar has been displaced by Fabled Feather of Ji-Kun as our BiS trinket. Regardless of whether or not someone is actively pursuing the Festerblight playstyle, Feather's potent proc puts it considerably ahead of any other alternative this tier.

#43 Mendenbarr

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 05:27 AM

Unholy Gargoyle mechanics:

30 second duration, 3 minute cooldown, casts gargoyle strike with a base cast time of 2.000 seconds. This scales with the players spell haste linearly, eg. if you have 20% spell haste, the cast time becomes (2/1.2) or 1.666 cast time. However, despite the expected 15 shots with a cast time of 2 and a 30 second duration, gary only manages to get off 11 casts with 0 haste.

Testing at first indicated that, no matter his cast time, he would always get off 11 casts. But then...
[TABLE]Spell haste | Cast Time | Casts
00.00% | 2.000 | 11/10/9
19.08% | 1.679 | 11/11/11
19.18% | 1.678 | 11
21.03% | 1.652 | 11/11
21.41% | 1.647 | 11
21.43% | 1.647 | 11/12
23.31% | 1.622 | 11
23.60% | 1.618 | 11/11/12
24.18% | 1.611 | 12
24.29% | 1.609 | (11) * 8/(12)*4
24.48% | 1.607 | 12
24.88% | 1.602 | 13/14
25.01% | 1.600 | 15/16
25.04% | 1.599 | 12/12/13/14
25.26% | 1.597 | 16
25.39% | 1.595 | 16
27.27% | 1.571 | 11
27.34% | 1.570 | 15
27.36% | 1.570 | 16
27.67% | 1.567 | 14
28.71% | 1.553 | 16/16/16/17
29.64% | 1.543 | (16)*5/15
30.51% | 1.532 | 15/15/16
31.28% | 1.523 | (16)*6
42.77% | 1.401 | 13 (using zerking)
52.00% | 1.315 | 17
62.95% | 1.227 | 16
65.57% | 1.208 | 16
69.66% | 1.179 | 17/17
111.83% | 0.944 | 16 (lv 80)[/TABLE]

Unholy seems to have a haste breakthrough! At this value of spell haste, which SEEMS to be between 27.27 and 27.34, which is 9015 and 9044 haste rating raid buffed, gary starts to scale with haste. This is a major breakthrough, because all of that haste starts to apply to gary at once, and napkin math puts it at as much as a 2-4k dps. This needs more research to find the exact point and confirm the findings. I'll be compiling data, but in-game it's difficult to test every single level of haste.

So here is what we are going to do. Spend 5 minutes to respec to unholy (unless you already are), go to a training dummy, and cast Gargoyle with recount up. Please PRIVATE MESSAGE me the following:
Haste rating.
Spell haste in spellbook.
Cast time of gary, (less digits are ok, easy for me to confirm this by looking at spell haste)
The number of casts gary gets off.

Tips!
The most important numbers are between 9k and 9.1k haste.
Much much higher numbers are also important, to see if there are multiple breakthroughs.
5% spell haste does effect gary.
If you want to test a higher number, try getting a shaman to cast bloodlust on you.
DO NOT use darkmist vortex, it will only be up for part of gary's duration, and screw with the number of casts.
Bloodlust only works if it's up for the entire duration of gary.
The more numbers we have, the better.


Credit for discovery of this little quirk goes to Devodante.
Thanks for the numbers from:
Frozendekay
lilucky136
Nangz
Vyoh
Minxyqt
Zaiku
markkali
php
Discodelya
Jujope



Update:
Still collecting more numbers, but this set of data indicates there is a haste breakpoint, and it's after 27.34%, but I'm still not sure where it starts. Gary's AI works in "ticks", every X ms, he decides what to do. If he finishes a cast, and there isn't a tick for another 300 ms, he'll just derp around and do nothing for that 300 ms. The "breakpoint" appears to be where he finishes a cast right before a tick happens.

Also seeing evidence from multiple places that his first cast always has a time of 2 seconds, regardless of haste. I'm not sure what this indicates, perhaps that it takes him a certain amount of time to scale to his master's stats.




Update 2:
https://twitter.com/...891610425409536
I'm done with this for the time being.

#44 lilucky136

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:09 AM

It's pretty amazing how different .05% haste can cause the gargoyle to get 4 extra hits in. The other haste marks seem a bit high to even worry about but atleast it shows how beneficial the gargoyle can be during hero. Question is if he ever reaches a maximum or if he will keep on going.

#45 Digitalizm

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:31 PM

Wouldn't it be a better choice to switch in the Tier15 Chest instead of and replace the Tier15 Legs with the heroic thunderforged version of ? Can't find a heroic thunderforged version of it, yet, as wowhead seems to be somekind of slow regarding their respective versions. I may be wrong, but I doubt it at this point, as I ran this already in chardev and I'd, personally, prefer a haste/expertise setpiece above a crit/mastery one, if the offsetpieces are almost on par (except the fact that you'd change two red for two yellow sockets).

#46 MagdalenaDK

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 11:56 PM

Wouldn't it be a better choice to switch in the Tier15 Chest instead of and replace the Tier15 Legs with the heroic thunderforged version of ? Can't find a heroic thunderforged version of it, yet, as wowhead seems to be somekind of slow regarding their respective versions. I may be wrong, but I doubt it at this point, as I ran this already in chardev and I'd, personally, prefer a haste/expertise setpiece above a crit/mastery one, if the offsetpieces are almost on par (except the fact that you'd change two red for two yellow sockets).


Don't forget that the BiS list also changes with Spark of Zandalar being replaced by Fabled Feather of Ji-Kun (i.e. more Hit). I'm skeptical that additional accuracy stats (i.e. the tier chest) would amount to a DPS gain compared to the tier legs which are Crit/Mastery. Then there's also the fact that the Ra-den chest ends up netting more strength overall.

#47 Mendenbarr

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 05:32 AM

Personally, I've been seeing the highest dps with this gearlist


Spoiler


Note the head as the offset. Not only is the golden crown nicely itemized, you also shed 1110 hit rating, which is huge.

#48 piece

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 02:06 PM

Hi,

I don't understand why you suggest gemming for pure strengh. Your stat weights clearly say that haste is better. Not much but still. As I understand the stat weights, I would put a fierce gem into red sockets and a quick one in yellow. Do I miss something?

#49 Mendenbarr

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 09:59 PM

Some stat values:
Unholy T15H is 535 ilevel, with 4 set t15, and legendary meta
Unholy T15N is 522 ilevel, with 4 set t15, and a normal meta
Unholy patchwerk (Single target, no lag, no movement, no AMS, perfect player skill):
Posted Image

You can clearly see that, for the patchwerk values, in 535 gear, 2x haste and 2x crit are both higher than str. In 522 gear, 2x haste is still higher, but 2x crit isn't. If you go back to naxx, and fight patchwerk, and want to be perfect, you should gem 320 haste in yellow, and 80 str 160 haste in red. However, there has not been a patchwerk fight since patchwerk.

Unholy AMS Soaking (Single target, no lag, no movement, 200k ams soak once per minute, perfect player skill):
Posted Image

AMS is present on nearly every single fight this tier, and last tier, and every tier. Magic damage is abundant on most fights, and every dk worth his salt uses AMS to soak up free runic, which increases damage, and changes stat weights. AMS clearly drops the value of haste way, way down, because str and mastery make the free DCs hit harder, and crit makes them do extra damage, but haste makes you lose more resources while AMS soaking. In 535 gear, 2x crit beats str, but 2x haste doesn't come close, and haste is actually lower than mastery and crit. And in 522 gear, and lower, STR reigns supreme.


Unholy Average Skill (Single target, no lag, no movement, no AMS, average player skill):
Posted Image

In all honesty, the average skill of a dk is, well, average. Even the best of the best can make mistakes, press the wrong button, not react perfectly to a proc, and while you are dealing with numerous fight mechanics, you will make mistakes. And many of us are not the best of the best, and make many more mistakes. It's important to take this into account when dealing with stat weights. These don't change stat weights much, everything is a little lower, but they do lower haste in 522 gear the most of all, illustrating it's tricky value.



Unholy Cleave (3 targets, no lag, no movement, no AMS, perfect player skill):
Posted Image
Cleave is commonplace as well in many fights, and needs to be looked at. This is the single target rotation, just with three targets instead of one. Note how haste drops, yet again, well below crit in 535 gear, and is tied with crit in 522 gear. In this example, 2x haste does beat str gemming, but 2x crit beats 2x haste in 535, and in 522, str is well above 2x anything.

Unholy AE (8 targets, no lag, no movement, no AMS, perfect player skill):
Posted Image
Straight up AE is also found very often in raids, and this profile used 8 targets that lasted the whole fight, as well as an AE rotation, blood boil spamming, and disease spreading.
Note how high mastery is, how high crit is, and how low haste is relative to them.


The point being that, in general, strength is more reliable than haste, and stays better in more situations, which is why I suggest gemming for strength.

#50 MagdalenaDK

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 05:42 AM

With the advent of the Festerblight playstyle for Unholy DKs, DKDots has become a pretty popular addon that many players have come to rely upon (I'd argue that it's a great addon for Blood and Frost DKs too). Unfortunately, 5.2 has introduced some new bugs which occasionally cause the addon to crash or not load.
Fortunately the project has been taken up by Kuren (US-Kilrogg), who has designed a new addon to function identically to DKDots: DKDiseases.

In terms of both functionality and aesthetics the addon is identical to DKDots, though the errors present in the former should not affect this new addon. We hope the community finds this replacement for DKDots useful.

#51 Jessamy

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:41 PM

For those who use them as a reference, the best-in-slot lists in the guide at the beginning of the thread have been updated.

#52 Subv3rsus

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 07:25 AM

Out of sheer curiosity, has anyone tried sims with only getting the 2P bonus and getting crit/haste on the other 3 pieces? Noticed that Raziee from Method opted for this method and only got his 2P.

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#53 huntcaudata

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 02:48 PM

Yes. You can see some results in this thread, or the advanced tactics thread, I believe.

I ran them myself (though not since the Unholy Might nerf) and found that Shoulders/Chest 2-piece w/Heroic Thunderforged off-set items was about 50 (yes, fifty) dps behind 4-piece on patchwerk fights, but quite a bit ahead on AOE, and I would suggest that anyone with access to H:TF off-set pieces use them instead of 4-piece. And Shoulders/Chest is the best 2-piece combo, better than Ra-den chest, etc.

If you have some non-Thunderforged pieces, or don't have Shoulders/Chest, or some other variation you'd need to sim it yourself to know for sure.

#54 Raizenyoukai

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 08:26 PM

I don't think this has really been touched up on, but I've been seeing alot of the top DK's taking Runic Corruption over Blood Tap. I was wondering if this is purely a preference of play, or if it actually has a big benefit to use in the 530+ ilevel range.

#55 Wheva

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:11 PM

Its preference mostly. In theory BT still has the best results but with how FesteringBlight uses Festering Strike more often then normal Unholy, RC allows less micro management since it affects all runes thus leaving the blood-frost rune pairs synced up.
Also RC just feels really good and natural for Unholy; for most DK's, Tier 5 talents are mostly about personal preference that what actually does the most dps. At the end of the day either one wont make-or-break your dps.
This question was also answered during the first live #Archerus Discussion and Q&A, the vod can be found here: mendenbarr - #Acherus Q&ALive Chat for Death KnightDK roundtable

#56 Lamperouqe

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:51 AM

RC gives you the chance for ridiculous rune regeneration peaks with back-to-back procs and with FeS we can take advantage of those without wasting RC proc time on fully charged runes, which works perfectly for festerblight. It's just adding more rng in to the mix with BT being pretty static and RC peaking much higher but also nose diving if you happen to get no procs. I'd say that the best parses come with good RC rng resulting in more attacks giving more chances for everything RPPM based to proc. After I made the switch I've had 5 stacks of Rampage for the entire last phase on Qon just due to RC procs and AMS keeping me gcd locked, not even having to HoW, but conversely I've also had severe cases of resource starvation due to RC not proccing. I guess, especially on farm, I just prefer chance over consistency.

For any AE based fight BT is the way to go though.

#57 Raizenyoukai

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 08:35 AM

Yeah, I have been using BT for a majority of this tier with 2H Frost and Unholy. It feels really controlled, but since I have been done with bleeding-edge progression for a few tiers now, I noticed alot of DK's who tend to have a consistency at high levels were going for RC.

I don't play festerblight, so I mainly used BT to make sure I knew when and where my runes were going on more and more fights.

I was also wondering if the 9044 Haste Rating I've heard about was indeed a breakpoint for Haste to reach and then start going into Crit more, or if Haste is just wanting to be stacked as high as possible. I'm Worgen, so the thought of making more use of the Crit racial would be quite nice if it is indeed a good way to go.

#58 Jeges

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:32 PM

It's obviously early days, but here's some preliminary math on the proposed T16 4pc bonus:

(all numbers approximated from logs and simulations, not guaranteed exact for any particular encounter, but should be close, with the possible exception that I might be overestimating the benefits of a transformed ghoul, which would overestimate the value of the 4pc)
Assume the ghoul does 13% of our total damage.
Being transformed, it does 2.5x the damage that it does not transformed (is this reasonable?)
One Death Coil every 3.6s.
Normally, the ghoul is transformed for 30s, then untransformed for 18s.
With the tier bonus, this becomes 51.4s (30/[1-1.5/3.6]) transformed, then 18s to re-transform.

There's some coefficient X such that:
(2.5*30*X + 18*X)/(30+18) = 13
So, X=6.71

With the tier bonus, we have
(2.5*51.4*X + 18*X)/(51.4+18) = 14.17

So the 4pc is a DPS increase of a little over one percent. That's pretty underwhelming, particularly given how spectacular the 4pc bonus is for Frost.

#59 Mendenbarr

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:43 PM

Here are my results for napkin mathing the 4-set:

Unholy gets an extra 1.5 seconds on DT when a DC is cast. Assuming this is an extension mechanic, here is what we know: Over a 7.5 min fight, unholy got off 132.5 DCs in the sim, without AMS soaking. It also managed 10.7 DTs, so 53.5 DCs were used when DT was down, to get it up. That leaves 78.7 DCs that extend DT's time. With a 68.51% uptime on DT, we can assume that a "cycle" of starting with 0 stacks, ramping up to 5, and then DT going up and off, lasts about 44 seconds atm. This leads to the expected 10.7 casts. That's about 13 DCs per cycle. Without the bonus, 5 DCs would start up, then 8 would do nothing for DT. With the bonus, the DT lasts another 12 seconds. During that time you'll get another 3.5 DCs off, or another 5 seconds, and in that 5 seconds you would gain another 2. This extends the total average duration from 30 seconds to 49 seconds of uptime, and the ramp-up time would still be about 14 seconds. This brings DT uptime from 68% to 78%. What does 10% more DT uptime mean? According to simc, having that 68% uptime on DT is a 7167.5 dps increase, so a 10% uptime boost would bring that up to 8221 dps, or a gain of 1053.5 dps, which is about 0.5% That's really sad, because it's a neat bonus idea.

Jeges, nice work on your math, but I believe you are both overestimating the ghoul a bit, and didn't take DC banking prior to DT falling off into account, which leads to apparently a higher benefit. While we may DC every 3.6 seconds on average, when DT is up, we may DC every 5 seconds, and when it's down, every 1-2 seconds, to get it back up. I used numbers from a 541 gearset.

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#60 huntcaudata

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 12:56 AM

On missing piece of the puzzle, longer DT's mean less DT's which means a couple extra Scourge Strikes. Not sure if that'll bring the bonus up to a reasonable range, but we should probably include it for completeness' sake.




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