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[Priests 5.0.4] I Get Misty


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#21 serrif

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 06:41 PM

Keep in mind that if neither MB nor SWD is about to come off cooldown, then DP is lower priority (other than MF) until you can cast MB or SWD on the next GCD after the DP.

#22 Izichial

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 11:22 PM

It's probably worth pointing out that Spirit Shell is (currently) not affected by Archangel.
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#23 Balkoth

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 03:59 PM

To expand on what Serrif said...

MB > SW: D (sub 20%) > SF/MBen > FDCL > SW:P > VT > DPx3 > MF


This is more accurate. DPx3 should replace Mind Flay casting time, since once you have the orbs you don't actually *need* to unload them until the next MB/SW:D is coming up. In fact, if you delay SF/MBen/SW:P/VT for a DPx3, you'll actually lose overall DPS (unless you've put yourself in a situation where MB/SW:D will be ready in a second so you only have time to cast one spell...which would have to be DPx3 in that case).
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#24 Omanko

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 04:47 PM

As I posted here, any such priority-list needs to be read with the theory behind it in mind. You are of course correct in what you say; we only differ in the representation of the facts. Whichever way you choose, there is a potential to read it incorrectly if you don't know the details.

#25 keikun332

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 09:39 PM

Talent Choices For a Disc Priest

From Darkness, Comes Light:

The interesting thing I take from this talent is that not only does it save you mana by making a flash heal free, but it also give you an emergency button that you can hold on to for 15 seconds. In terms of raw mana conservation, the only way I can see placing an "Mp5" amount on it is to determine how often the talent will proc dependent on your play style.

Smite: 1.5 Sec Cast, 15% chance, 40 casts = 6 procs = 1 minute = 30,000 Mana Saved = 2000 Mp5
Heal/G.Heal: 2.5 Sec Cast, 15% chance, 24 casts = 3.6 procs = 1 minute = 1500 Mp5

So obviously, an atonement healer will benefit greatly from this talent, as you will see the contemporary atonement priest smite spam at least 75% of the time.

Now, something to keep in mind: is this is not mana gained via regeneration, but more mana saved by pressing an instant cast, free, emergency heal. What reinforces this style is that fact that you can hold up to 2 charges of this talent, which allows you to hold off on using your flash heal till someone takes a big hit, or when you accumulate a second charge (so you do not waste charges)


MindBender:

In order to fully calculate the mana gained by taking this talent, one must compare this talent to the built in ability shadow fiend.

Both hit about 12 times

The Mindbender will give 1.3% mana back per strike, and usually about 1 - 2 hits will miss, so lets use 10 hits total, making mindbender give 13% mana back per minute, which is 1083 MP5

The Shadowfiend gives 3% back, resulting in 30% mana back per 3 minutes, which is 10% mana back per minute, which is 833 Mp5

So in essence, taking this talent will give you 250 Mp5

On the positive side, lets say a fight last an amount of time where you can fit in 1 fiend/5 benders, 2 fiends/8 benders etc: then you will have an increase in potential MP5. So this can be taken into consideration if you are consistent on the usage of said abilities.

So in terms of equality: Mindbender works out to be just about equal to FDCL (~1500 Mp5) , but does not give the utility that FDCL provides.


Power Word: Solace

So in order for PW:So to be viable as a regeneration talent, it will have to give 1500 Mp5 in a semi comfortable fashion. That is, without sacrificing much of your healing potential because this is the only button that stops your healing for increased mana regeneration. Every cast will restore 700 mana. at about 3.33 casts per 5 seconds which comes out to 2331 Mp5. Much more Mp5 than any of the above mentioned abilities.

But this is only when the spell is utilized, so how can we keep the Mp5 up? Over the course of 1 minute, Mindbender will give 13000 mana. To equal this amount, we will have to cast PW:So 19 times per minute, which will occupy 28.5 seconds per minute. Almost a 50% up time...

So generally speaking, the Maximum Mp5 will not equal it's average Mp5. With about a 25% up time (that is, about once every 4 seconds) you will have an Mp5 output of about 1200. This also comes with a reduced healing output.


So in general, I feel that the choice is not quite totally cut and dry, with PW:So being at the bottom due to having to reduce overall healing output for a regeneration that may come in some fights and may not in others. (As disc, I just start tossing out PoH to keep bubbles refreshed and growing)

Now here is another thing to note for FDCL: If you find yourself not casting GH very often, then the odds of getting your proc obviously goes down. But unless that amount of Mp5 you wind up with is greater than 250, FDCL still comes out on top in terms of total healed while using less amounts of mana over the fight duration, which in a sense, is a period of time that you will gain more mana because you spent no mana doing a heal that you will have to eventually do or risk that player dying. This is also important to note when dealing with PW:So, as the amount of time you do not spend actively healing/shielding means that the full amount of DTPS will be applied to your healing load, which you will then have to expend Flash heals if you let too many players drop below 50%. Remember: You need to cast PW:So at least once every 4 seconds in order to be competitive. Thats about 2 spells between each PW:So. So in instances where you cannot simply cast 2 spells then a PW:So, you will have to remind yourself that you "Lost" Mp5 because you had to cast more than 2 heals between each PW:So.

Moments of Lulls can and will make up for this, but you also lose a valuable asset in keeping Divine Aegis up as a Disc Priest. If you are a holy priest, Then I guess you could go ham hocks and spam to your hearts content.


And I would like to say right now, that in the end, Disc Priests will gain Stam as a stat for throughput. Why?

Shell Shield.

Due to the cap of Shell Shield being directly linked to the amount of HP you have, and gemming for Spirit shares the same color as Stamina, swapping the two stats will be easy when it comes time to increase your throughput.

Now the important note: A GH will easily surpass the SS cap if you did not gem stamina. Lets concider that the tank somehow takes more DPS than one Shelled GH. Increasing your Int will do nothing, as the bubble cannot be any bigger. More Spirit will only give you regeneration, and I'm assuming at this point: you are comfortable with the amount of regeneration you have (since you are thinking of ways to increase your throughput)

So, in essence, by making your bubble bigger, you increase your overall absorbs. An option available to you when changing out spirit gems.

I can see GH spam in tank and spank encounters with SS up basically making the tank invincible for 15 seconds every minute. And if the shields from the GH is large enough, a few PoHs later and the group shares a similar amount of invulnerability.

#26 serrif

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 03:00 AM

The Mindbender will give 1.3% mana back per strike, and usually about 1 - 2 hits will miss, so lets use 10 hits total, making mindbender give 13% mana back per minute, which is 1083 MP5

The Shadowfiend gives 3% back, resulting in 30% mana back per 3 minutes, which is 10% mana back per minute, which is 833 Mp5

So in essence, taking this talent will give you 250 Mp5

Not quite. Shadowfiend only stays up for 12 seconds instead of 15, which costs it 2 swings, lowering the estimated mp5 of shadowfiend to 667 mp5, or a difference of 417 mp5.

Power Word: Solace

So in order for PW:So to be viable as a regeneration talent, it will have to give 1500 Mp5 in a semi comfortable fashion. That is, without sacrificing much of your healing potential because this is the only button that stops your healing for increased mana regeneration. Every cast will restore 700 mana. at about 3.33 casts per 5 seconds which comes out to 2331 Mp5. Much more Mp5 than any of the above mentioned abilities.

You need to compare Solace + fiend to Mindbender. Since you need to make up a 417 mp5 deficit, and you get 700 mana per cast, you need to cast a solace every 5 * 700 / 417 = 8.4 seconds for them to be equivalent assuming optimal mindbender and fiend usage and steady state. If you account for the additional GCDs that Mindbender uses over shadowfiend, Solace uses 1 GCD every 9.3 seconds to break even. If you can spare more, then solace is more regen. If you can't, then mindbender is better.

Now the important note: A GH will easily surpass the SS cap if you did not gem stamina. Lets concider that the tank somehow takes more DPS than one Shelled GH. Increasing your Int will do nothing, as the bubble cannot be any bigger. More Spirit will only give you regeneration, and I'm assuming at this point: you are comfortable with the amount of regeneration you have (since you are thinking of ways to increase your throughput)


How are you seeing this? At 150k hp which is where you should be at, a spirit shell max bubble is 90k. Since spirit shell heals average in crit instead of having a crit chance, 1 greater heal can't reach that threshold at heroic DS gear levels. 2 gheals might, though. Realistically, your highest HPS use of spirit shell is PoH by a long shot.

#27 Szeretlek

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 05:41 AM

So, in essence, by making your bubble bigger, you increase your overall absorbs. An option available to you when changing out spirit gems.

Only in crazy world I will gem stamina as Disc instead of Mastery, Spirit or Int.

About FDCL.
I dont cast GH or FH often in that expansion. And with Penance Glyph and Holy Fire Glyph I throw away Smite from my bar. You just smash PoH button so many times, that needed to get your raid healed. And that is right way to do it.
If you find yourselve to benefiting from FDCL - try cast more PoH`s. It will be hps increase anyway.

About Solace.
I have lul moments only in progression raids, where mana is tight and you need play in conserve mode.
So if you are find yourselves benefiting from Solace - try cast more PoH`s!

About Mindbender.
It is great tool to keep mana flowing all the time. I cast 1st MB after 15'' and just keep it on cooldown. It is simply more convinient SF, which is ready when you need it.
If you find yourselves not benefiting from MB - try cast for 5 min in non-stop mode PoH`s and you will get how cool it is. You wont have lul phases for Solace and you will cast high hps and high hpm PoH instead of low hps and low hpm GH/FH so FDCL doesnt proc.

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#28 Havoc12

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 03:45 PM

Spirit Shell ignores a lot of buffs: It ignores all temporary crit buffs and all effects which say increases your healing done by x%, except for grace. So ToF and archangel for example which increase healing do not affect PWS and spirit shell. That makes ToF a terrible talent for disc.

ToF procs from pain, so if you cast pain on a 15% health mob you get 15% increase in healing for 30s. ToF is strong (for holy) for those fights where you are constantly zerging adds down. A great example is tsulong. You can keep the buff up constantly during the day phase and you get 15% more HPS on tsulong. It also stacks with the 500% healing bonus from the breath. On the downside it is tricky to pull off. I personally don't like ToF as it is now, because it does not benefit your procing cast. So if you hit a group with low health they dont get any benefit from ToF and usually damage is healed quickly so your second cast overheals more, which kinda eliminates the bonus of ToF. In fights like spine where you have adds at <15% health for long periods of time though ToF is a semi-permanent 15% buff so its good, but still its really annoying to have to keep refreshing pain on an add.

The formula for fiend and mindbender is number of attacks = (1+duration/15). It is currently not modified by haste.

Mindbender attacks 11 times while shadowfiend attacks 9 times.

Contrary to what people think solace is best for those fights where you have heavy damage all the time and mindbender is best for those fights who have lots of downtime. There are several reasons for that:

Casting as much solace as you can and then lowering spirit for throughput stats is much much worse than maxing spirit and casting the minimum number of solaces required to get you to the end of the fight (though some people will disagree with me on this it can be demonstrated mathematically that this is the case).

Basically lots of ppl think that what you need to do is spam solace during the downtime and then have lots of mana available during the big spikes. However if the fight has a lot of down time than mana drain is low and with just mindbender you will have enough mana to both cast a few high HPM heals during the down time and all the mana you want to spam high throughput combos during the spikes. So with solace you are just wasting healing time getting mana you don't need during the downtime. You cant lower your spirit and get more throughput so that you can get more oomph during the spikes, because solace+throughput is much worse than spirit and less solace. With mindbender you can heal more than with solace during the down time and heal about the same during the burst.

However when there is tons of damage flying around, you will end up oom and because with solace you can cast solace when you are oom but with mindbender you have no choice but to sit around and wait for the CD to finish, solace ends up winning.

So it is the opposite of what you might expect:

Lots and lots of heavy damage --> take solace and spam it during the lowest points in the incoming damage. You will spend less time oom and more time healing than you would with bender

Very spikey fight with lots of down time --> get mindbender and heal conservatively during the downtime, you will still have as much mana as you need to heal hard during the spikes, but you will also get a good chunk of the healing during the downtime.

1 spirit is worth 0.6mp6 roughly without rapture.
425 haste rating is worth 1% haste

Thus if you trade 1000 spirit for 1000 haste rating you will end up with -600mp5 but 2.353% more haste. That is obviously no where near enough gain in casting time to allow you to get an extra 600mp5 from the extra solace. In effect you would just lose about 600mp5 and if mana is limiting you would just cast less spells and heal less overall.

In gems items and enchants intellect has twice the stat budget of spirit, so you have to trade 2 spirit for 1 int.

500 intellect is about 2% increase in healing as well I think. That means in order to break even you would need for that 600mp5 loss to reduce your overall number of casts by 1.9%. In a 6 minute fight 600mp5 is equal to 14.4% of your max mana. You would need that to be 1.9% of the total mana you have available i.e. you need to have 7.58 times your max mana available to you in a 6 minute fight. With a 300k starting pool that is equivalent to an overall mana regeneration of 27.4k mp5. Incidentally the mana drain of PoH is 30kmp5. If you had 27.4k mp5 then you would be able to spam PoH for about 10 minutes straight in combat. In MoP right now with 10k spirit in scaled gear I am looking at maximum 12k mp5 in combat.

In other words the only way to trade spirit for intellect is through buff food and flask/elixir. When gemming/enchanting/gearing you have to go for max spirit. , so the only way that you can trade spirit for intellect anyway is through food and flask/elixirs where int and spirit are 1:1. Even with the 1:1trade spirit is better until you get to roughly 13k spirit.

#29 Ninahagen

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 05:17 PM

Most people think Solace shines better in irregulars fight because it is obvious, or it seems obvious.

You are mixing "regular / irregular damage" with "sustainable / unsustainable damage (mana-wise)".

You may have
1°) Regular and sustainable damage. In that case, you are constantly healing because your mana-regeneration is enough, and you don't have time to cast Solace. Solace is bad.
2°) Regular unsustainable damage. In that case, you have to manage mana, and you are not constantly casting. In that case, you have time for Solace, and Solace being good or not depends on how much Solaces you can cast while still keeping an optimized (and not dumb) gameplay (an optimized gameplay).
3°) Irregular sustainable damage. There are period of time where there's nothing to heal, or almost nothing to heal. During this time, you may cast Solace.
4°) Irregular unsustainable. There are period of time where there's nothing to heal, but you are not even able to sustain the time where there is heal to do. You have even more time during which you could spam Solace.

You are comparing Regular unsustainable and Irregular sustainable.

And I'm not convinced Mind Bender is always better for 3°), at least not theorically, nor that Solace is always better for 2°). It always depends on how much time you have available for casting Solace.

I share the point of view of those many ppl that tend to think Solace shines better in irregular fights, and that's because without thinking much, I can imagine the following example:

- I don't know how effective is spirit. I assume 1 spirit gives MP5_1SPIRIT, and it may be weak or strong, I don't care.
- I don't know how effective is solace. I assume one cast takes 1 GCD, and returns MANA_1SOLACE. It may be weak or strong, I don't care.

I imagine one fight with a giant ogre and his big stick.
He smacks my tank at the beginning of the fight, for heavy damages, then he's staring at the raid with fish eyes and does nothing during 1 GCD x MANA_MAX / MANA_1SOLACE (so if I spam Solace during all that time, I get back 100% of my mana).
After waiting that much, he smacks my tank again.
Each time he's done smacking my tank (beginning of the fight, and a bit later), I have to instantly spend 100% of my mana on one big healing nuke. The healing spell costs 100% of my mana, and is instant, and I don't really care how much heal it does.

In this example, it is clear to me that, since there's no damage to heal between 2 big stick smacking, spending my time with Solace seems kinda good (no drawback?), and will return 100% of my mana, whatever weak or strong each Solace is. And as follows, the mana I get from spirit is completely useless, no matter how strong spirit is.

So, better come with 0 (zero) spirit, and boost the damages of Solace and the healing of my big heal, with spellpower and critical strike.

I'd say that's an example I get from my weak mind, that explains to me quite quickly that irregular fights tend to favor Solace. It's not said that Solace is better in real fights, but it's a trend.

#30 Havoc12

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 11:26 PM

Having done all fights in the current tier, I have found no fight at all with extended periods of no damage. There is always healing to be done. Some fights are more bursty and the damage is not equaly spread out and in some fight there is constant damage which keeps ramping up and up as the encounter proceeds.

Thus there are effectively no irregular fights as such. There is always something to heal. As disc also there is never any downtime at all, since you need to stack aegis for the spikes.

In general terms and depending on your mana regen mindbender perfoms better in the spikey fights because the spell selection there allows you to cast continuously with just mindbender. The fights where there is constant ramping damage are those fights where you spend time being oom. These fights generally favour solace but some of them have a mana regen mechanic already (e.g. tsulong).

In fights with downtime, some of it is always best used with potions of concenation

=================================================================================

Lei shi and the sha of fear on LFR are heavy tank healing fights, which favour FDCL. Spamming PoH in these fights produced weak results for me. The other great fight for FDCL is gajarat the spirit binder.

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#31 serrif

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 11:32 PM

Why do you "need to stack aegis for the spikes"? This seems like a very inefficient method of healing.

#32 arison

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 06:14 AM

Basically the way to think about Solace is opportunity cost. What are you casting it instead of? Probably Heal or Smite -- otherwise the opportunity cost is incredibly high. Using the handy (still beta) calculator, at level 85, Smite/Heal are roughly 14k hps. So every time you use Solace, you lose 1.5 * 14k = ~20k healing. If you cast for 8.4s per minute, we're talking a cost of 120k healing, or 2000 hps.

But those 5.7 Solace casts (over 8.4 seconds) would be ~4 Heal/Smite casts, which would have cost you 1,900 mana each (2700 for Smite). So by not casting them, you don't spend nearly 8k-11.5k mana (and regain 700*8.4, or 5800 from Solace itself). The majority of the "regen" from Solace comes from simply not spending mana, not from the mana it returns. In fights where there are lulls, you wouldn't cast anyway, so that regen isn't material, but for other fights where you actively choose to Solace instead of Smite or Heal, you are truly "gaining" that mana.

So really, for one Solace cast, you can get 0.6 Heal/Smite cases, which cost 1900-2700 mana. So 0.6 * 1900 = 1140 mana. Each cast of Solace, in a fight where you otherwise would cast Heal, means you "get" 1840 mana. At that rate, to match Mindbender, you need only cast it around 2.5 times (Mindbender giving 417mp5, or ~5k more mana per minute than Shadowfiend).

Of course, if there was healing to be done, then other healers will need to make up for your lack of casting, so basically you're stealing their mana :) But perhaps a HoT or smart heal will make up for it.

So Solace isn't so terrible as the math looks. If you can cast 2.5 per minute on a normal fight (instead of a Smite or Heal), you match Mindbender. For a fight with a ton of downtime, though, you need 5.6 casts to match Mindbender.

(Technically the two extra lost GCDs for Mindbender also should be accounted for, but that ends up being pretty small, and since it's castable while moving, less of a practical cost).
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#33 Ninahagen

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 09:28 AM

If there's little to heal, you can let it to the other healers.
Sure you are 'stealing' their mana, but so what?

If you help them, which is not really needed, the global healing will remain the same anyway, since it's capped to damage income. But in that case, you do not improve your mana regen. So global mana regen suffers (unless all your colleagues are priests with solace too, or unless all your colleagues have such active manaregen spells).

Healing is teamwork.

If you are the only healer, little damage do not force you to cast heals all the time. You may cast Solace, then when the life bars are low enough, you heal them.

#34 Havoc12

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 04:24 PM

Arison mindbender provides ~15k mana per minute more than shadowfiend or roughly 1250mp5. 2.5 coasts of solace per minute add 5250 mana.

Why would you replace solace with a smite or holy fire? There is an optimum number of solaces that you can cast per fight. If you cast more or less you will cast less heals than the maximum possible.

Solace effectively allows you to trade some of your casting time in exchange for being able to spend a larger amount of mana in your remaining casting time.

You can either heal all the time and pace yourself so you dont run oom. Or you can cast solace until you have enough mana to go flat out for the rest of the encounter.
==================================================================================


Having little to heal for a long time often means there is more damage being done than a short strong spike lasting seconds. This is not true of every encounter, but it is true for many.

If you only heal the spikes your output will be very low, even in fights like feng or stone guardian, where there is more damage in the spikes than the rest of the encounter. My experience is that if you only heal the spikes your will never run oom even fi you dont cast a single solace. The difference between the top healer and the last healer is how much of the remaining damage they take, because spikes are cleared quickly by absorbs and instant/fast aoe casts. That is why solace kinda sucks on spikey fights. You can keep yourself chain casting practically with mindbender anyway. When solace shines is those fights with very high mana drain. Solace minimises your time spent oom, quite efficiently.

Ideally what you want in every single encounter is to maximise the time you spend casting and use as much mana with spells that are big and fat and high HPM.

I have not seen an encounter so far where you ignore the low damage phases and still produce an acceptable output.

=================================================================================

I have not found a way to produce a nice healing output with disc without stacking aegis. It might seem inefficient but remember everytimy ou PoH someone you leave an aegis shield. Since you will cast several PoHs after a spike during top-up, you end up with a lot of left over aegis. If you don't keep that alive you end up with a PoH that heals for 60% its normal amount. Also stacking mastery is a good idea for disc since so much of your healing is absorbs. Spirit Shells helps with that by turning spells into pure absorbs, but its just not enough on its own.

I find that spikes are healed extremely quickly by other healers and disc just can't compete. Most of what you get is what you absorb. If you are able to get good numbers without stacking aegis I would be delighted to know how you did it.

#35 arison

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 04:51 AM

Shadowfiend is 27k (9 hits of 3%) mana per 3 minutes, or 9k mana per minute, or 750mp5. Mindbender is 16060 mana per minute (11 hits of 1.46%), or 1338mp5. And yes, the tooltip lies. It is 1.46% mana, not 1.3% mana.

My numbers for Shadowfiend were off in my original post, but I just tested it to confirm. So the difference is 588mp5, obviously in Mindbender's favor. So Havoc, you can't just say Mindbender provides "another" 15k mana because you still get some of it from Shadowfiend.

To compare regen, you have to look at the 588mp5 delta. 588mp5 is 7056 mana per minute, or ~10 casts of Solace ignoring the mana you'd gain by not casting mana-consuming spells. If you're using Solace instead of Heal, you lose the healing but also don't spend 1900 mana over 2.5 seconds (Heal's cast time, before being modified by haste, of course). Since PW:Solace benefits from haste, we can simply divide the cast times; in the time you cast one Solace, you could cast 0.6 Heals, which cost 1900 mana. So using Solace instead of heal gains 700 mana and prevents the spending of 1140 mana. With no haste, that's 1840 mana per 1.5s, aka 6133mp5.

So how many "packets" of 1840 mana do you need to match the regen of Mindbender (which is 588mp5, as above)? In 60 seconds, 588 mp5 is 7056 mana. So you need to 3.8 casts per minute (as opposed to my 2.5 number earlier).

Bottom line: mana not spent is mana regenerated. Only take Solace when you have downtime in a fight (significant time where you would otherwise not cast). Otherwise Mindbender, potentially with time not casting a spell when you might want to, is far superior regen and hps. In general when people say they like how Solace feels for regen, they likely aren't accounting for what would happen if they simply didn't heal during those times. Since you can always choose to not cast to "gain" most of the regen Solace provides, you really do need the full ~10 casts per minute of Solace to keep up with Mindbender's incremental mana over Shadowfiend.

Take Solace on fights where there are lulls where you otherwise wouldn't be doing much.
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#36 Szeretlek

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 07:04 AM

I have not found a way to produce a nice healing output with disc without stacking aegis. It might seem inefficient but remember everytimy ou PoH someone you leave an aegis shield. Since you will cast several PoHs after a spike during top-up, you end up with a lot of left over aegis. If you don't keep that alive you end up with a PoH that heals for 60% its normal amount. Also stacking mastery is a good idea for disc since so much of your healing is absorbs. Spirit Shells helps with that by turning spells into pure absorbs, but its just not enough on its own.

I find that spikes are healed extremely quickly by other healers and disc just can't compete. Most of what you get is what you absorb. If you are able to get good numbers without stacking aegis I would be delighted to know how you did it.

I agreed with that statement absolutely.
Discipline output is based on stealing HPS with shields. In paradise world all damage should go to absorbs and no one will get lower then 100% hp. Others healers (except Holy Paly with their mastery) just cant heal anything even if they want.
I found that even I get tremendous hps numbers throuhout fights (50k effective hps Madness hm 0% buff) others healers have ways to overwhelm me if damage done to raid would be much higher. Its just how much damage we left them to heal.
Discipline priest cant compare with others if we wont use our healing style - preshielding (stacking aegis, spirit shell or even PWS). That what we should do in "low" phases - stack bubbles.
In my previous post I meant excatly that idea. I just cant let myself cast that Solace thing. I need cast one more PoH =)
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#37 serrif

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 08:55 AM

Szeretlek: Of course, pre-shielding will yield a higher hps in a fight where your raid has more than enough healing capability. That log shows what happens, then: your resto druid's hots were around 50% overheal. If I can spend 1 PoH to heal up a spike vs spending two PoH to build up the Aegis to absorb that spike in advance, the choice of what to do seems obvious to me. The mana inefficiency of pre-stacking Aegis could easily be translated into a movement of regen stats into throughput secondaries instead.

#38 Havoc12

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 06:20 PM

Shadowfiend is 27k (9 hits of 3%) mana per 3 minutes, or 9k mana per minute, or 750mp5. Mindbender is 16060 mana per minute (11 hits of 1.46%), or 1338mp5. And yes, the tooltip lies. It is 1.46% mana, not 1.3% mana.

My numbers for Shadowfiend were off in my original post, but I just tested it to confirm. So the difference is 588mp5, obviously in Mindbender's favor. So Havoc, you can't just say Mindbender provides "another" 15k mana because you still get some of it from Shadowfiend.

Since you can always choose to not cast to "gain" most of the regen Solace provides, you really do need the full ~10 casts per minute of Solace to keep up with Mindbender's incremental mana over Shadowfiend.

Take Solace on fights where there are lulls where you otherwise wouldn't be doing much.

.....If I can spend 1 PoH to heal up a spike vs spending two PoH to build up the Aegis to absorb that spike in advance, the choice of what to do seems obvious to me. The mana inefficiency of pre-stacking Aegis could easily be translated into a movement of regen stats into throughput secondaries instead.


I see you are using level 85 values. If you want to do this properly you do it like this: Mindbender returns 11*1.46 = 16.06% of your max mana per minute and costs 1 GCD per minute. Shadowfiend returns 9% of your max mana per minute, with 0.33 GCDs per minute. The gain is 6.06% of your max mana and the cost is 0.67 GCDs per minute. You need to cast 6.06/0.7 = 8.657 solaces per minute to get equal return, but hat costs you an additional 8 GCDs per minute over shadowfiend. = 20% of your casting time in one minute must be used for solace, which is not a joke. As disc 27s of every minute are spent casting spirit shell or spamming heals with archangel, 16seconds stacking evangelism and you need to use PWS as well for rapture every 9seconds per minute. That means 27+16+9 = 52seconds. Not much time left for solace.

However that kind of thinking is not right for comparing solace with mindbender, I explained why in the other thread, where we modeled the whole thing.

There is a cap on how many solace casts are productive in an encounter based on the length on the encounter and your spell selection. You can cast that amount of solaces in practically every encounter.

Did you notice what I posted before. 1000 spirit traded for 1000 haste costs you 688mp5 and gains like 2% extra casting time. Trading spirit for intellect produces a similar result, except when its buff food/flash, where the trade is still bad but less so. If you do trade away spirit for throughput, what will happen is you will cut your healing out by a very large margin. Trading spirit for throughput before ~13k spirit is a terrible terrible idea.

Attempting to not stack aegis will leave you in the dust of other healers and probably kicked out of your raid, because you are not doing your job. The whole point of bring disc to the fight is to reduce incoming damage. Absorption stacks instantly "heal" part of the spike, so they deliver their healing much faster than actual heals and help minimise the time members of your raid spend in the "danger zone" after a spike.

Equally importantly, PoH your main aoe heal is slow and only hits 5 targets, so if you have to heal 5 groups, it will take you 10seconds to get the last one. In contrast monks other classes hit a lot more targets simultaneously and heal the fast. Having someone hitting each group with big fat heals also increases their overheal. You are also forgetting that 40% of PoH is aegis. In other words if you only cast it when there is something to heal you are healing them initially for 60% of the heal and then leaving behind an absorption shield. If you don't keep that alive until they take damage and you lose it you are only using 60% of your PoH.

If you only try to heal when PoH will actually heal something, you will only raise PoH mana efficiency slightly, but you will contribute very little to the raid and your personal healing will be utter shite.

#39 arison

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 07:25 PM

I see you are using level 85 values.

Also that kind of thinking is not right for comparing solace with mindbender, I explained why in the other thread.


None of the numbers change for 90 as they are all based on your total mana pool -- they scale equally. And while it is your opinion that your way of thinking is correct, that is a long way from being a fact. I find your logic and theorycrafting to be pretty obtuse and circuitous, but part of that is the formulas aren't appearing for me. Perhaps if you restate your viewpoint more concisely it will be clearer, but so far, I'm far from convinced your logic is correct. Saying things like Disc never having downtime because of building DA stacks is pretty silly, for instance (using PoH for pure DA pre-emption is horrible efficiency). It's also tough to

As near as I can tell, your logic is "if you use fast, high throughput spells, you have spare time to cast solace because you have to stop casting sometimes because otherwise go OOM." You also base much of your logic on earlier experiences in LFR/dungeons (before our spells were reduced) and seem to ignore base regen and opportunity cost of not using even lower efficiency spells (particularly Smite as Disc).

Basically I still think it comes down to fight mechanics. Each fight will present different regen opportunities. The problem with Solace is you can get most of the benefits simply by not casting, regardless of which talent you take from the tier. The 0.7% mana isn't that big a deal compared to not spending mana during the same time, but you can get that effect simply by sitting on your hands. Mana not spent is mana regenerated.
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#40 Havoc12

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 05:45 AM

And while it is your opinion that your way of thinking is correct, that is a long way from being a fact. I find your logic and theorycrafting to be pretty obtuse and circuitous.... DA stacks is pretty silly, for instance (using PoH for pure DA pre-emption is horrible efficiency).....

Basically I still think it comes down to fight mechanics... but you can get that effect simply by sitting on your hands. Mana not spent is mana regenerated.


The innefficiency of DA stacking, is mitigated by the fact that you don't lose all the aegis that you build while healing. Using PoH only when there is a deficit has only slightly higher efficiency than pure aegis stacking, because it often means letting your DA stacks expire and because you have overheal. The "horrible" efficiency is something that you will get even if you try to only use PoH when it will heal, because poh is slow and group limited, very a ton of other fast and raid wide heals available.

So far I have never seen any disc priest produce high numbers without obvious DA stacking. If you are able to produce high numbers please post a log or a recount/skada screenshot where you do exactly that and tell us how you do it, because trust me we all want to know.

Smite? Smite is only cast to stack evangelism and even then not really, because it's not really worth casting.

Concerning solace and mindbender Seems to me you don't really understand the model at all if you think I am ignoring regen, but I have already explained it enough and its inappropriate to fill more posts about it.

Basically you can always get enough mana back from solace to beat mindbender. The question is can the HPS you generate from the extra mana, compare with loss in HPS due to the loss of casting time.




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