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[MoP] Beastmastery 5.2


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#21 Nooska

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 07:17 AM

I have confirmed Kill Command does not let you loot the mob in beta either. That leaves me with 2 test to do to see if I can explain how I could loot a mob my pet had killed without interaction from me (and indeed far away from me).
1) Lynx Rush may be considered the hunter (at least it sometimes seems as if I get threat from it, which may be a bug then).
2) Another player has damaged the mob, meaning any player damage makes a mob lotable, by the one that tagged it (and a pet tag points to the owning hunter)
If anyone else do these tests, please let me know.

#22 Pathemeous

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 02:48 PM

1) Lynx Rush is considered the pet (can be seen from Recount too, you'll see Lynx Rush appear in your pet's attacks - using the option to not merge pets with owners). Tested on a random wolf in Elwynn.
2) Tested with a Disc Priest in Tol Barad. The pet had attacked a spider and the priest finished it. The mob was lootable by me (the hunter).

This would suggest that option 2 was the cause.

#23 Pathemeous

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 03:24 PM

On the topic of BM DPS, I have a few considerations

Considering an opener of BW+KC-> LR + Readiness -> KC -> AS -> AS -> AS -> AS -> AS -> KC (allowing 3 KCs in the first BW duration), would it be wise to spend a RF somewhere before Readiness (I made a macro with RF + LR), seeing that the CD will be reset anyway.
The haste itself is not very useful, but the resulting increased focus regen comes in handy when doing two BW in quick succesion (~3 seconds gap to let the CD on KC get low enough to allow 2 KC in the next BW. In this gap applying SrS and popping DB).
Doing some napkin maths:
4.40 base focus regen
6.16 when affected by RF (+40%)
5.72 when affected by Chronohunter (+30%)
8.01 when affected by both RF and Chronohunter (+82.0454545%)
Especially because stacking them increases the focus regen exponentionally, it is free focus without execution time.

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Considering Dire Beast, how do others use this in the opener? I hear of people popping DB before doing BW, I heard of people macroing DB into BW (lines out nicely every minute).
I use Dire Beast after applying SrS when my first BW has ended (might consider whether to prioritize SrS or DB). Due to all the haste effects (as I mentioned above), and me using a CS to get at a more comfortable focus level for the next BW, I often end up capping focus a little during the BW (8Focus/s + 5Focus from DB = 13 Focus, while AS only spends 10Focus during BW).
I could consider leaving the CS and starting the next BW one second earlier, which should still allow 2 KC during the second BW.
Interested to hear how others value the short CD of DB in the priority with 2xBW happening.

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How do others handle LR?
Personally, I use 2x LR in the opener. I tried leaving them out but that greatly reduces the burst potential (8K difference IIRC).
This would suggest that spending a GCD on Lynx Rush during BW as opposed to an AS is a big gain and therefore LR should be stacked with BW as much as posisble without lowering the amount of LR in total.
In a fight that lasts less than ~3:12 minutes, which means there will be room for 3x LR (one in both BW in the opener, one after the CD has ended mid-fight), it would therefore be beneficial to delay LR by 30 seconds after it comes off CD to spend it during the next BW

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Do others use KS during BW?
The focus cost reduction of BW is lost when doing so, but seeing that KS hits for 420% Weapon Damage it would seem obvious to make it benefit from the 10% damage bonus from The Beast Within.
Mind here that You'd not delay KS at any point to make it line out inside the BW, it's simply a matter of whether or not to delay it during BW.

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Does anyone manually control Rabid in the same way as I described LR; by stacking it with BW whenever possible without lowering the amount of Rabids in total?

#24 Nooska

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 04:12 PM

I would suggest macroing Rabid with LR.
As for opening, I am not quite ready to make a final determination on what to suggest, but I would currently say something on the order of;
SrS, BW, KC, LR, GT, Readiness, KC, LR, GT, AS, AS, CoS, BW, KC (etc).
I would pop SrS first to get it up and running, and I would add in that CoS before the second BW to extend SrS.
As to popping RF in there for the increased focus regen, that does sound like a good idea, but I'll remain neutral on it for now, untill I have some time to test it specifically - it would make sens in regards to keeping up SrS with a shorter CoS though, so another win there (remember to add in Glaive Toss or Powershot, currently Glaive Toss) before and after the Readiness.

#25 Pathemeous

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 04:59 PM

Ah yeah, I'm not taking GT into account in my previous reply. Actually I'm on about lv85 scaling (I know the topic is meant for lv90, my bad)
Macroing Rabid with LR seems like a good plan, I'll take that advice.

By adding in GT it will become practically impossible to have a 3rd KC in the first BW.
This brings me to another point.
I'm not a long-time BM player, but using logic, would it be safe to say that having 10 GCDs that are affected by BW is impossible? Without doing proper logging, it seems that the following factors cause this:
1) Inaccuracy with popping BW.
You'll very probably pop BW a little bit before the GCD allows any action. You don't want to 'wait' for the GCD to end (visually watching it) for the known latency reasons, to try to reduce this factor, it's not worth it and won't work anyway (see 2).
2) latency between shots.
While in theory there's literally 10 GCDs, only the slighest bit of latency (which is unavoidable, regardless of your localisation) will bring this down to 9, as the 10th will fall just outside the BW frame.

Could anyone state if this is correct?

#26 pichuca

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 07:12 PM

I would suggest macroing Rabid with LR.
As for opening, I am not quite ready to make a final determination on what to suggest, but I would currently say something on the order of;
SrS, BW, KC, LR, GT, Readiness, KC, LR, GT, AS, AS, CoS, BW, KC (etc).
I would pop SrS first to get it up and running, and I would add in that CoS before the second BW to extend SrS.
As to popping RF in there for the increased focus regen, that does sound like a good idea, but I'll remain neutral on it for now, untill I have some time to test it specifically - it would make sens in regards to keeping up SrS with a shorter CoS though, so another win there (remember to add in Glaive Toss or Powershot, currently Glaive Toss) before and after the Readiness.


I´m pretty sure you just forgot it, but you should also pop Dire Beast just after LR, then Readiness, and DB again, you can have the two dire beasts at the same time. You need at least 4 or maybe 5 instant shots between each LR to make sure you cast the second when the pet has finished the first one, as it takes 4-5 secs for the 9 hits.

On live I´m doing almost exactly what you suggested: SrS, BW+RF+PVP trinket, KC, LR, DB, Readiness, KC, DB, LR, AS, AS(At this point BW is just about to drop, so I may overlap it for about 0.5 sec), BW, KC and then pop the second RF asap im out of focus after some more ASs+KC. I don´t really enjoy refreshing SrS during this phase, so I would just cast it again just before popping the second RF over refreshing it earlier with CoS. It is a small DPS loss (not even closely noticeable). That´s what I got after several hours of testing, trying to find out the best opening secuence. That leads to crazy burst both on Raid and PVP, being able to pull around 90-100k DPS for the first 20 seconds of fight, or either killing someone with full resil gear without even the need of shooting at him.

Don´t think that the opening secuence would change a lot at 90, just adding GT for another 2 GCDs.

#27 Nooska

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 07:58 PM

Corect, I forgot about DB, as I've been using TotH extensively on the beta (toth is better for questing), and yes, DB should be popped in there - will remember to make a specific mention of having 2xDB up via readines when I get to the talents - hopefully later this week will see some time to extend whats currently up.
Adding DB (x2) should also remove the need/want for an RF in there for cous reasons - that just means we may want to delay readiness till after an RF sequence after the first BW (which also builds up focus, and helps not grabbing aggro on non hit-capped tanks for example) - will have to do some more analysis of that though.

#28 Pathemeous

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 08:08 PM

Wouldn't it be better to split the two BW apart? This way you can a) spend the time in between them refreshing SrS with CS, B) have 5 KC in BW range instead of 3.

Then you have a) The SrS up from start without reapplying it, which you say is a (small) DPS gain, B) more abilities that hit harder than AS in BW range.

Surely, if you want to burst than back to back BW is of course better, but on long term this should improve your DPS.

In this sequence you can simply put the first LR in BW one, and the second LR in BW two. Delaying a 90 seconds long ability by 5 seconds won't usually redyce the amount you can squeeze in in a fight

#29 pichuca

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 08:58 PM

Nevermind you can still get the 5 KCs in there delaying BW 5 sec, and still get the second LR and DB in the first BW. You just need to cast the first DB before BW, the beast will update its damage 1-2 secs after you pop BW. Right after the third KC you can use CoS and refresh the sting if you want to

#30 javaman123

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 04:39 AM

re: Agi>hit==exp (to cap)>>mastery>crit>>haste
I have confirmed that when I reforge for mastery over crit, I lose 10% of my DPS and overall damage.
Sure, my pet does 5% more damage. However, if I reforge for crit over mastery, it gives me 10% more DPS and damage using level 85 blood elf hunter (beastmastery)

Has anyone else had this same experience?

#31 Chillbow

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 01:17 PM

When you're saying ( GT ) What exactly does that mean?! Can't figure it out for the life of me, please help.. Cheers

#32 NoGoal

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 01:52 PM

GT == Glaive Toss; the level 90 talent.

#33 Hamsda

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 01:54 PM

When you're saying ( GT ) What exactly does that mean?! Can't figure it out for the life of me, please help.. Cheers


GT refers to one of the lvl90 hunter talents, Glaive Toss. Currently it sims the highest benefits and thus will likely be chosen once MoP and the new raid content is released. (of course these things can always change)
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#34 Namarus

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 08:15 PM

How do others handle LR?
Personally, I use 2x LR in the opener. I tried leaving them out but that greatly reduces the burst potential (8K difference IIRC).
This would suggest that spending a GCD on Lynx Rush during BW as opposed to an AS is a big gain and therefore LR should be stacked with BW as much as posisble without lowering the amount of LR in total.
In a fight that lasts less than ~3:12 minutes, which means there will be room for 3x LR (one in both BW in the opener, one after the CD has ended mid-fight), it would therefore be beneficial to delay LR by 30 seconds after it comes off CD to spend it during the next BW


This is a burning question for me. On longer fights is it better to use LR, stacking it with BW or to just use it every time it's up.

Napkin math ahead.

200%x9x1.2 = 2160% for a Bestial Wrath modified Lynx Rush

200%x9 = 1800% standard Lynx Rush

Saving LR for every BW gives you 6 total for a 6m18s = 12,960%

If you don't save LR for use with BW then over the same period gives 4 x(LR+BW) + 3x(LR) = 14,040% (note I delayed the use the final 2 LR by 6s to use BW with them).

#35 Fluflis

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 09:40 AM

This is a burning question for me. On longer fights is it better to use LR, stacking it with BW or to just use it every time it's up.

Napkin math ahead.

200%x9x1.2 = 2160% for a Bestial Wrath modified Lynx Rush

200%x9 = 1800% standard Lynx Rush

Saving LR for every BW gives you 6 total for a 6m18s = 12,960%

If you don't save LR for use with BW then over the same period gives 4 x(LR+BW) + 3x(LR) = 14,040% (note I delayed the use the final 2 LR by 6s to use BW with them).


Same rule as usual applies there, if by waiting to line it up with BW makes you lose one use of Lynx Rush then it's not worth waiting. If you know that you have time for only one Lynx Rush till boss dies and you can line it up with BW it's gain. Two Lynx Rush out of BW > One Lynx Rush with BW.

Also if you have Rabid macroed with Lynx Rush you don't only delay Lynx Rush but Rabid as well.

For the opener you were discussing, dont forget that on pulls we also use a pot so maybe Rapid Fire is not of best use with all cooldowns stacking at start till we use Readiness but early use means we get to use 2 BW within the pot timer.
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#36 Namarus

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 04:27 PM

Same rule as usual applies there, if by waiting to line it up with BW makes you lose one use of Lynx Rush then it's not worth waiting. If you know that you have time for only one Lynx Rush till boss dies and you can line it up with BW it's gain. Two Lynx Rush out of BW > One Lynx Rush with BW.

Also if you have Rabid macroed with Lynx Rush you don't only delay Lynx Rush but Rabid as well.

For the opener you were discussing, dont forget that on pulls we also use a pot so maybe Rapid Fire is not of best use with all cooldowns stacking at start till we use Readiness but early use means we get to use 2 BW within the pot timer.


Good point, something else to consider, is that generally Rapid Fire for BM is not a very good dps cooldown.

However, combined with pot+BW increases pet focus regeneration

1. Increasing hunter focus regeneration increases pet energy regeneration.

2.More autoshots means more potential critical strikes with autoshot while agility bonus from pot is active. This increases pet focus regeneration.

3. More pet focus means higher damaged pet Basic Attacks which is further increased while BW is active.

#37 Lokrick

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 08:21 PM

Good point, something else to consider, is that generally Rapid Fire for BM is not a very good dps cooldown.


Concretely, we can run that in simc. The invocation below suppresses rapid fire and changes readiness not to wait for it. I checked that the resulting html had the right number of readiness and rapid fires.
> simc ptr=1 Hunter_BM_T14N.simc copy=BM_no_RF skip_actions=rapid_fire modify_action=readiness html=bm_no_rf.html

84903  50.6%  Hunter_BM_T14N
83048  49.4%  BM_no_RF

So rapid fire is worth 1.9k for BM in T14N using the current profiles.

#38 Nooska

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 07:32 AM

My understanding of the point Namarus is making, is that because RF is a pretty lackluster CD for BM, there is really no reason to not use it during BW anymore, even though we don't benefit from the haste directly, because of the increased forcus refen for both us and pet (are we sure RF increases pet focus regen? - will check in beta when I log on there later today).

#39 Azortharion

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 10:20 AM

Based on the math, theorycrafting and my own testing / analyzing of beta logs and the likes, this kind of opening sequence is what I have come up with, ensuring you get the most out of your buffs:

SrS (effective opener, makes it easier to start off, too)> RF + BW > DB > LR (or Blink Strike) > KC > Readiness > DB (two beasts) > LR > AS > (two AS' to make sure the pet has finished doing the first rush)AS > LR > BW + RF.

This ensures that you are using your pet cooldowns within BW range to start with, and allows for maximum spammage of Arcane Shot, having considered the points made above with how RF functions well with BW, but not so much alone.

#40 Nooska

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 10:39 AM

Having just completed a couple of tests on the "internal test bosses" where I let the pet attack the boss till focus was the limiting factor of basic attacks, then observing it for a while, then using RF, I feel confident that RF does affect pet focus regen (despite being ranged haste).
Specifically I observed mostly 5, sometimes 4 seconds between basic attacks (claw in this case) after letting my pet drain itself of focus. Popping RF increased the frequency to just over 3 seconds on average while RF was up. At no time did I myself attack the boss, so GftT was not a factor.

One thing I can certainly say as a biproduct of this testing, is that crit is worth a lot more than mastery untill we get enough GftT procs that the pet is never focus starved for basic attacks, this is likely the reason for thej variation in crit value that I observed at earlier simming.
That the pet doe snot generate enough focus to use basic attacks on cd also explains why haste at lower gear levels seem more attractive (valuation wise), because it affects pet focus regen twice - base focus regen and autoshot speed - neither one nor both combined will analytically make haste = crit at any point for pet focus though.




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