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[Prot] 5.0.4 - Somebody that I used to know


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#21 Wrathblood

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 09:16 PM

Oh, sure. Its not specifically the SW/GlofAW synergy that's causing me trouble (I suppose it would make it modestly more useful as a leveling glyph but that's about it), its more the whole spectrum of stat and talent interactions but I'm just about comfortable that I've figured out my viewpoint on most of it.

As for HotR and CS, I completely agree. My eyes nearly popped out when I realized how softly both of them were hitting. CS barely hits harder than autoattacks now and HotR is significantly weaker than that. Since they're so weak, even in a worst case scenario (swapping entirely from CS to HotR for single target) you'd probably only lose 1-1.5k dps.

We may ask a dps warrior to start with TC after the pull (if our Bear isn't available for some reason) for reliability purposes since I'm not quite sold on Hit/Exp as being worth capping/soft-capping (I'm working on estimating the relatively variability of damage intake from Hit vs Expertise vs Haste vs Mastery to convince myself). I missed my initial HotR on H10 Ultraxion this week on our initial attempt, the healers were apparently asleep, and he promptly 3-shot me (2 90k hits and a 70k hit).

#22 Ronark

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 12:00 AM

Theck, EF's HoT effect is not intended to scale with Bastion, to prevent it from becoming the defacto talent for that tier.

#23 Gloryrider

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 08:05 AM

I noticed another fun stat synergy that slightly benefits the hit/expertise gearing and isn't mentioned anywhere.
It's mainly something being mentioned in (non-healer) spellcasting areas, but as of now expertise is also beneficial towards your spell hit %. This means that your spell hit rating is (about? I'm not familiar with any tools to test these things) equal to the total rating of adding hit and expertise ratings together.

Also, what makes it so nice for us spell-using sword swingers, having the 7.5% hit cap (769 rating) and 7.5% softcap on expertise (also 769 rating) makes you end up with an exact 15.00% spell hit, which requires (you guessed it) 1538 or 2x769 "hit".

We don't use spell hit that often as tanks, but it's a good starting Threat boost to not have your AS fly wild (and your Judgment? i'm unsure on which table it is) and a minor survivability boost during an entire fight for the same reasons. Also, we don't have our free 8% spell hit from our Guarded by the Light passive but this seems the tool blizzard gave us to make up for that.

#24 Wrathblood

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 02:23 PM

Yeah, 7.5% hit and exp should cap us for everything but cs/hotr and autoattacks.

#25 Ronark

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 05:27 PM

I believe it boils down to this:

White hits, CS, HotR, HoW, ShoR, and Judgment use the Melee hit table. With the exception of HoW and Judgment, everything can be parried or dodged, and CS/HotR can be blocked.
L90 Talents, AS, HW, Cons, HoJ/FoJ, Turn Evil, and Repentance are the only abilities on the Spell hit table.

#26 Wrathblood

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 09:52 PM

Oh, duh. ShoR too, alomg with auto and CS/HotR. Thanks, afraid Id forgotten one.


So, J and C, for example, use different combat tables, but afaik they work the same in game, in that 7.5% hit and exp will cap them both equally.

#27 Ronark

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 10:50 PM

Oh, duh. ShoR too, alomg with auto and CS/HotR. Thanks, afraid Id forgotten one.


So, J and C, for example, use different combat tables, but afaik they work the same in game, in that 7.5% hit and exp will cap them both equally.


The only benefit for Expertise is getting to the soft and hard caps, where your Spells no longer miss (7.5% Hit + softcap 7.5% Expertise) and where your CS is no longer Parried (I don't recall what percentage the hardcap is at, i think 12.5%?).

With Judgment being reverted to a Melee hit that does Spell damage that is never Parried or Dodged, Expertise does nothing for it; That is why per point Hit is worth more than Expertise until the Hit cap.

#28 Wrathblood

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 04:40 AM

Well, there's benefit of getting part-way to a cap. If you have 4% Hit, you can still get misses but you won't get as many of them. And to a player, whether the ability is on the spell hit table or melee hit table, if you're at 7.5% hit and exp you can't tell the difference if its an ability that can't be Parried. Hit-cap and soft Exp cap is a guaranteed hit either way. But a Parryable (or, indeed, blockable) hit isn't the same.

Wait, can you clarify that? Are you saying that HoW and J can be neither parried nor dodged? Because I just had a HoW be dodged against Ultraxion on Wed.

#29 Lookit

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 06:24 AM

In 5.0.4 it is now possible to dodge ranged physical attacks, making hunters value expertise for the first time. This is probably the explanation for a dodged HoW.

#30 Nooska

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 07:27 AM

In 5.0.4 it is now possible to dodge ranged physical attacks, making hunters value expertise for the first time. This is probably the explanation for a dodged HoW.


Actually no. J is a melee attack with increased range (as opposed to a ranged attack), and I do believe (I'll go and find a reference link in a second) that it had its dodge/parry flag turned back off after having had at least dodge turned on for a while in the beta.

Edit: No, the dodge/parry flag is not turned off in the latest tests I could find, it was Theck speculating that it may be considered a bug in a blue response (that J is flagged for dodge/parry), but the main gusto is still that J is a melee attack with an increased range.

#31 Gloryrider

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 08:45 AM

I have a question about blockable hits. Did this mechanic change with 5.0.4? Before, I only saw ShoR hits being blocked but never parried. Can other skills now be blocked from the front too?

#32 Wrathblood

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 12:44 PM

Its not entirely scientific, but looking back over this week's raids I used close to 900 Judgments. I was prot for roughly 2/3 of those, and in that Prot gear I'm at roughly 280 Hit and 130 Exp (sort of convenient I hadn't yet decided to shift to Hit/Exp yet). Over the week, I had a number of J's Miss, but had zero J's be Parried or Dodged. I had ~155 HoW's over the week and WoL recorded both Misses and Dodges. Also, WoL recorded zero blocks against me over the week, I'm more inclined to believe that WoL is tracking things improperly than that bosses no longer block, but this isn't sufficient evidence for a conclusion either way.

Checking other logs from paladin tanks seems to echo this. After looking through logs with thousands of collective J's, I have seen zero Dodges or Parries. HoW appears to be Dodge able but I have seen zero Parries.

Hmm. This could go either way. I feel comfortable that HoW is considered physical attack (unclear if its melee or ranged) which cannot be parried. But I'm going to need to go through a bunch of Ultraxion logs to see what J is. I feel comfortable that it cannot be parried or dodged, but that doesn't tell us if its a spell or a weird ranged melee attack that cannot be dodged or parried. The boss dummies appear to still be borked, so need to go through a bunch of Ultraxion and Morchok logs and compare the results with the tanks' gearing, looking for evidence as to whether or not Exp is doing anything.

#33 Arthur Dent

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 01:43 PM

Judgement was a spell at the beginning of the beta and then reverted back to a melee attack a couple weeks ago for PvP reasons.Blue post
It could be dodged/parried at the time, but this was a bug that is now fixed. Yet another blue.

I do remember another post that stated that HoW was intended to be dodge- but not parryable. Can't find that one right now though.


Oh and just on an unrelated sidenote: Despite the statement that resistances would be gone, the mechanic itself is still in place and functioning. Items like still work as they used to.

#34 Wrathblood

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 02:34 PM

Interesting. I hadn't seen that first blue post (not enough pvp, I guess) but I saw that second one and thought it was just a smidgen too vague to confirm that J was now a no-parry/dodge but it certainly is a vote in favor. Some pvping should confirm the melee vs spell part. Next week I was planning on running hit-capped but low exp anyway and that should confirm it.

Edit - Also, as a side note, I've started on a fairly substantial rewrite of the OP to incorporate synergies and some other stuff. I'll make a post when its done.

#35 Theck

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 02:18 AM

Theck, EF's HoT effect is not intended to scale with Bastion, to prevent it from becoming the defacto talent for that tier.


The intent has bounced around a few times on beta already in this case. In any event, there's no danger of it becoming the de-facto talent. EF's HoT currently does about half as much healing as SS grants absorption. If EF's HoT portion got the full benefit from Bastion (~150% more healing in high-mastery gear), EF would at least be a contender. I'd still take Sacred Shield, because absorption is generally preferable to healing and wouldn't incur an opportunity cost. But at least it wouldn't be quite as much of a no-brainer.

<edit> Catching up, regarding J and HoW: J is a melee attack that cannot be parried or dodged. HoW is a ranged attack, and is therefore subject to hit and dodge, but not parry. We've tested both of those fairly exhaustively over the last few beta patches before 5.0.4 went live.

As for the rest: AS, HoW, Cons are all spells (and cons rolls hit/miss per tick), as are our L90 talents. CS, HotR(phys), SotR are basic melee attacks.

<edit #2> Also, I've updated my spreadsheet to include the Draenei racial hit bonus and toggle-able raid buffs.

#36 Charybdis

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 12:46 AM

Incoming health buff and SS change.

After consideration, we are a bit worried about paladin survivability as well. Shield of the Righteous, buffed by mastery, is a massive amount of mitigation, but the risk is that whenever paladins didn't have it available, they'd risk spike damage. (As an aside, it was also weird for paladins to suddenly be the spikey tank after years of being the opposite.) We're going to increase the Stamina benefit of Guarded by the Light from 15% to 25%.

One additional paladin note is that we are moving the initial tick of Sacred Shield to the end. We didn't want players to feel like the right way to play was to constantly cancel and overwrite the bubble.



#37 Sagemor

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 02:42 AM

Cleanse Macro

#showtooltip Cleanse
/cast [target=mouseover,exists,help] Cleanse; [target=target,help] Cleanse; [target=targettarget,exists,help] Cleanse; [target=player] Cleanse; Cleanse;

Hand of Protection Macro

#showtooltip Hand of Protection
/cast [target=mouseover,exists,help] Hand of Protection; [target=target,help] Hand of Protection; [target=targettarget,exists,help] Hand of Protection; [target=player] Hand of Protection; Hand of Protection;

Interrupt Focus Macro

#showtooltip Rebuke
/cast [target=focus, exists, harm] Rebuke; Rebuke;


Because I like to simplify things, with the macros all being the same spell, you can make it easier. In addition to not needing the spell after the showtooltip, you can just put each condition (in the order of most important to least) in their own set of brackets, then follow it with the spell. Also, with mouseovers, if you dont have one, it ignores it, so no need to have the exists in it.

#showtooltip
/cast [@mouseover,help][@target,help][@targettarget,exists,help][@player] Cleanse

Other useful things, one of the later posts mentions having a friendly as a focus (for purposes of Rebuke), you can do something like this:

#showtooltip
/cast [@focus, exists, harm][@focustarget, exists, harm][ ] Rebuke

Notice the ending [ ], that just tells the macro to behave normally in the even none of the previous conditions are met. If you have a [@player] in there for a good spell (like the cleanse) there is no need for this.


If anyone wants help with macros, I love making them. Before they added the mage portal drop down boxes, I made a macro that managed to get all SW/IF/Darn portals and teleports into 1 button :)

#38 Wrathblood

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 03:06 AM

Macro creation is something I'm not overly proficient with. If anyone has ideas for more I'm happy to include them.

Additionally, I've just finished a significant rewrite of the OP. Among other things, I've standardized a lot more stuff when describing abilities (what kind of attack it is, along with an explanation of what it does and what is required to cap hitting with it, how hard it hits, coefficients, range, cooldown), redid the rotation and pull part a bit to include the effect of talents, stat weights, targets for ShoR uptime, and generally included a lot more discussing how the various stats and talents synergize with each other, and the implications for gearing strategies. As always, if anyone spots anything that's obviously wrong or just badly explained, please let me know.

The last thing I'm considering is whether to include a more robust opening overview that explains how to put together and play a Prot pally in a couple paragraphs. On the one hand, I think it would help a lot of people. On the other hand, EJ isn't really "Prot pallies for dummies". Pondering whether to just leave it alone or find a way to make it worthwhile.

Edit - Charybdis, you know, I think I barely mention SS at all and I'm not even sure I put it in the list of abilities. Good opportunity to make sure its properly covered. Is that health buff on live as well or just beta?

#39 Tyvi

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:37 AM

- At level 45, take Sacred Shield. Its the best one for tanking.


Why is Sacred Shield the best for tanking? I understand that SS gives you the most healing/absorb over time but I question the value of that. In my personal experience, tanks tend to die from burst damage and not because they happened to take slightly more incoming DPS than incoming HPS for a longer period. SS is also always active and doesn't do much in periods where you don't take damage.

Personally, I think Selfless Healer is the better talent because it gives you yet another tool to combat burst damage, especially if you combo it with Glyph of Flash of Light and follow up with a WoG. That's in addition of SH being great raid utility for pretty much any encounter but more specifically for 2 tank fights where you can FoL your co-tank when he takes burst damage.

I suppose where you stand on this topic comes down to how you think about overall damage vs burst damage (if it wasn't obvious by now, I think the latter is much more important to deal with).
I think it's a rather interesting topic because us DKs had a similar discussion with our T75 talents. One gave more Death Strikes per minute (=more overall healing/absorbs, the Sacred Shield equivalent) whereas the other let you store charges to use when truly needed at the expense of losing some Death Strikes per minute (the Selfless Healer equivalent) and so far the latter seems to be winning simply because it puts you in control and tanks are more scared of burst damage than anything else.

(If you need a more Paladin specific example, think back about when Holy Shield was made a cooldown. I believe you lost overall damage reduction but you gained a truly powerful CD instead and I'd wager people prefered HS as a CD over the static +10% block value you lost to gain it.)

We may ask a dps warrior to start with TC after the pull (if our Bear isn't available for some reason) for reliability purposes since I'm not quite sold on Hit/Exp as being worth capping/soft-capping (I'm working on estimating the relatively variability of damage intake from Hit vs Expertise vs Haste vs Mastery to convince myself). I missed my initial HotR on H10 Ultraxion this week on our initial attempt, the healers were apparently asleep, and he promptly 3-shot me (2 90k hits and a 70k hit).


I wouldn't worry too much about accuracy capping just for applying Weakened Blows on the pull. Most bosses don't start at their full damage potential so if it doesn't go up instantly it's not a big deal. Plus, you generally will also start fully shielded and hotted up. I don't think your Ultraxion death was caused by the lack of Weakened Blows atleast. :v:
(And since it was mentioned earlier: DPS DKs cannot apply Weakened Blows, it's a Blood specific talent.)

That said, accuracy still has value for your mitigation. Avoidance may or may not offer you slighly more damage reduction over time but this harks back to what I mentioned earlier: Total damage taken or burst damage taken, what is more important? And how important is being able to react to it to yourself instead of relying on avoidance? Accuracy will increase your HP generation which in turn means you can ShotR/WoG more often. Losing avoidance means you will have to do so more often. However, avoidance is a fickle thing and just because you have 33% avoidance doesn't mean you will dodge every 3rd swing after all. You could go for a while without any avoided hit at which point you better hope you have some HP ready to react to that (the reverse is true as well; you can just as well run into lucky avoidance strings but since that isn't potentially lethal we care less about it).

And this isn't even accounting for the increased DPS you will do if you gear for accuracy. Tank DPS is going to matter quite a bit more than it did in Cataclysm with the new Vengeance (not that I don't think it wasn't important already) so that's one more point in favor of accuracy stats.


Just out of curiosity, have people been holding onto 3+ HP yet when they are fine on health so they can use it when you start getting hit again or are you going for highest ShotR uptime, no matter what?

#40 Hamsda

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 10:22 AM

Speaking from a healer perspective (and tanking as prot paladin sometimes) I can only agree with you on the value of accuracy stats (in combination with mastery of course) vs avoidance stats.
It doesn't matter too much that stacking avoidance yields overall less total damage taken, according to thecks calculations on sacredduty, because we healers will overheal a tank most of the time due to hots and stacked heals, but are more likely to waste quite a significant amount of mana with fast heals (which may end up in overheal nonetheless) when the tank takes spiky damage.
Thats the reason why I would heavily favor accuracy+mastery on a paladin and warrior. They may take more damage but it will be less spiky overall and will therefore be less likely to trigger those "warning signals" a healer sees if tank health goes below a certain trashhold.

But that is also the reason why a protection paladin should choose SS in my opinion. The shield will lessen the overall damage and I doubt a SH heal would make a huge difference in regards to burst damage. SH would most likely only cause 1 more heal from a healer to be overheal, since it is highly unlikely that you wont receive any heal at all after taking a big hit (which is quite unlikely with the avoidance+mastery+SS approach).

Of course there may be certain fights, where SS will be quite "useless"... the thrash ability of sha of fear or anger, can't remember which one has it, comes to mind or a fight where the classic tank swap is enforced by some mechanic and a SS is already available from a healadin.

p.s.: sorry if some points are not quite understandable or may not come across as I intend, my english is not the best at the moment and I'm a bit sleep deprived...
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