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5.0.4 Resto Druid FAQ


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#21 Kjeldorian

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 07:23 PM

@ToL vs SoTF - The math was to evaluate only throughput by evaluating the highest HPET.

Assumptions:
Sample Numbers for Evaluation (Build 16030 Beta)
@90, SP = 18456, Haste = 21.47% (9th WG Tick), Crit = 12%, Harmony Up, RG Glyphed, WG Glyphed
GCD = 1.24 sec for non RJ spells, 1 sec for RJ
Baseline Druid w/o T4 talent would cast WG + SM off CD/ RJ as filler

  • RJ - 14.5k x 5 Ticks + 1 Direct Heal Tick = 87k
  • RG - 74k Crit + 22.2k Living Seed = 96.2k
  • LB (Single Stack, Blooms) - 24k Bloom + 2.1k x 18 Ticks = 61.8k
  • WG (6 Targets) - 3.4k x 9 Ticks = 30.6k per Target
  • SM (3 Max Targets) 47.6k + 5.7k x 9 Ticks (Max 3 Targets)

Tree of Life
ToL (WG + SM / Rejuv Rotation)
  • Gain from WG - 294k (3 Casts, +2 Targets, 15%) or 98k per
  • Gain from Rejuv - 286k (22 Casts of Rejuv, 15%) or 13k per
  • Gain from SM - 63k (2 Casts, 54.7k + 6.6k x 9 Ticks x 3 Targets) or 31.5k per
Total Gain over Non Talented T4 Druid = 643k
(w/o SM was 620k)

ToL (WG +SM / LB / RG OoC Rotation)

Tricky Part: 23 GCDs (24 - 1 Used for ToL) split between LB, RG, SM, and WG . Assuming - 4% Mutually Exclusive OoC procs from Lifebloom (Which may not be the case because WoWhead.com reports two variations of Lifebloom Normal Lifebloom and ToL Lifebloom which may have different OoC procs as seen from different expansions)
Lifebloom Net - (61.8k x 115% - 87k) = -16k (Every LB you cast in lieu of a Non-ToL RJ, the extra partial seconds are taken into account at the end of the next portion)
RG Net - (96.2k x 115% - 87k) = 24k.

We could do probability densities with the number of lifeblooms proc'ing OoC but I am lazy and will look only at the extreme case.

ToL (WG + SM/ RG Spam)
  • Gain from WG - 294k (3 Casts, +2 Targets, 15%) or 98k per
  • Gain from RG - 432k (18 Casts of RG) or 24k per
  • Gain from SM - 63k (2 Casts, 54.7k + 6.6k x 9 Ticks x 3 Targets) or 31.5k per
  • Loss from RJ -348k (4 RJs lost because 18 RG = 22 seconds)
Total Gain over Non Talented T4 Druid = 441k

Due to the limitation of the 1.24 sec GCD, you lose out on a lot of potential healing versus using the 1 sec GCD RJ. Every LB used in lieu of a RG sends you farther down in the max healing and spamming RG in ToL is mana heavy without OoC.

Soul of the Forest
What if? We took the above numbers vs the previous SoTF?
SoTF (Every other SM)
  • Gain from WG - 653k (8 Casts, 3.4k x (13 Ticks(Empowered) - 9 Ticks(Original) x 6 Targets))
  • Gain from RJ - 116k (4 Casts, 14.5k x (7 Ticks(Empowered)* - 5 Ticks(Original))
Total Gain over Non Talented T4 Druid = 769k

SoTF (Sync SM + WG)
  • Gain from WG - 979k (12 Casts, 3.4k x (13 Ticks(Empowered) - 9 Ticks(Original) x 6 Targets))
  • Loss from WG unused - 580k(6 Casts, 3.4k x 9 x 6) + (6 Rejuvs, 87k per)
Total Gain over Non Talented T4 Druid = 399k

Force of Nature
What if? For completeness sake, FoN evaluation.
Gain from FoN - 136k (3 Casts, 6.3k per Treant x 3 Treants x (7 casts (though 6 in testing)) - 87k (1 Rejuvenation))
Total Gain over Non Talented T4 Druid = 136k

Flaws
Remember this is a back of the envelope calculation. There are flaws such as:
  • Not including crit
  • Living seed for spells other than Regrowth were ignored
  • Mana was not taken into account so thus HPS (Sustained) was not taken into account
  • Neither were GCDs in maintenance in keeping Harmony or Lifebloom up
What you can draw though is that SoTF (used for WG every other SM) is superior to ToL for throughput in the long run.

@Efflorescence Crits - On live (5.0.4) and a recent LFR Testing on Beta (Build 16010) the crit rate for Efflo was on par with general spell crit with no noticeable trend with respect to when crits occur.

5.0.4 H Madness 25 ~15% Crit rate for Efflo and other spells
16010 Beta LFR Testing ~11% Crit rate for efflo and other spells.

The interesting thing though was that Efflo was updating every tick, so that a spell proc trinket resulted in stronger Efflo ticks post swiftmend placement.

#22 Taringe

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 01:23 PM

Regarding the Incarnation vs. SotF debate: I believe, in the end, it will very much come down to personal preference (which is a good thing). Hopefully FoN can be brought up to a level where it is also competitive.

For me, I suspect I will be going to Incarnation is nearly all situations. I am not keen on the thought of being forced into alligning every single WG and SM in order to get the most out of SotF. How much of the bonus is lost when they get out of sync? Healing is very much a dynamic and living environment.

Additionally, I think the mana considerations (As noted by Kjeldorian's flaws list) will play a significant role specifically in the early stages of raiding. These early times are also where decisions like these talents matter most.

#23 Kjeldorian

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 08:07 PM

Soul of the Forest
Same assumptions as above including:
  • Regrowth Unglyphed ticks for 2.8k
  • Tranquility ticks are 5.5k

Worst case scenarios:
SoTF Empowering Other Spells:
  • RJ Tick 7 or 14.5 x 7 Ticks + 1 Direct Heal Tick = 116k or 29k gain
  • Lifebloom Tick 27 (No Bloom) or 2.1k x 27 Ticks over Tick 18 (No Bloom) is a 19k gain
  • Tranquility -6.59 channel time -> 4.39 channel time or 1.2 sec, no HoT benefit.
  • Regrowth Unglyphed Tick 5 or 2.7k x 5 Ticks over Tick 4 is a 2.8k gain
  • Healing Touch - 2.06 cast time -> 1.3 cast time or speed up by .7 second cast time
  • Regrowth - 1.23 cast time -> .86 sec cast time (1 sec gcd hard cap) or speed up of .23 second cast time
  • Nature's Swiftness - same as regrowth
  • Wild Mushroom: Bloom - Nothing

Absolute worst is using WM:B after swiftmend as it consumes the buff with no changes.
Practical worst case scenario is using a HoT like LB or RJ after SM.

SoTF (RJ only)
  • Gain from RJ - 348k (12 Casts, 29k per)
Total Gain over Non Talented T4 Druid = 348k

Now considering something proposed in the mmo resto guide, unglyphed WG
SoTF (SM + WG Sync)
For every other WG to sync to SM we will have a 1 second idle time which can't be spent on a Healing Spell else SoTF is consumed, which would have been a RJ in the baseline model. Also with a 16 second rotation we can only fit 11.25 SM in the 3 minute window.
  • Gain from WG Empowered- 2486.25k (11.25 Casts, 3.4x 13(Empowered) x 5 Targets))
  • Gain from WG Unglyphed - 1721.25k (11.25 Casts, 3.4x 9Ticks x 5 Targets)
  • Loss from WG Glyphed - 3304.8k(18 Casts, 3.4 x 9 Ticks x 6 Targets)
  • Loss from Sync - 1130.25k (.75 Swiftmend, 201.5k * .75 + 11.25 RJ * 87k)
  • Loss from RJ - 485.46k(5.58 RJ @87k per)
Total Gain over Non Talented T4 Druid = -713k
My previous analysis did not take into account the additional WGs because they assumed they were the same, but they were not. So lines 1 + 2 is the the addition of all WG unglyphed (22.5 casts), line 3 is what the Non-Talented Druid would have gotten via Glyphed WG, Line 4 is the 11.25 seconds lost waiting for the sync every period, and Line 5 is the RJ lost from the extra 4.5 GCDs.

#24 apostolis

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 12:53 AM

stupid thought but assuming you do a healing touch (if glyph) it make the cd for swiftmend lower ..so you can sync it better.

yes when casting swiftmend effect to other players was critting but i found strange that it seemed to affected more than 3 people (4 people sometimes besides the person that swiftmend hit) at least thats what my screen and (what happend to me) showed.

also notice the force of nature does't finish the cast of last spell at least its bar reaches middle and then vanish and i count 5 spells casts with 6 being vanished in the middle i replied the test few times (i click the cd and throw a hot immediatelly)


Also with current tier dont forget you have the timeslip of spells making rejuv with more duration..so you cant exactly produce accurate results or assumptions i think.

p.s. udpate some times they do 6 casts sometimes 5 casts

#25 Kjeldorian

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 04:18 AM

@ FoN - It scales on your haste, theoretically with 15.67% personal haste and 5% spell haste (under 2.14 second cast time HT) you should be able to get 7, but the targeting mechanic is pausing. GC has mentioned it and about improving it's mechanic.

@ Glyphing HT - You generally don't cast HT except for NS since RG has a higher HPET during OoC casts

@ Swiftmned - Checked WoL - no instances of efflo healing more than three people at any tick, though ticks do get very close during blood lust, both on a recent live h madness kill and a beta LFR.

The tier 4 talents above were done at 90 on the PTR w/o t13 due to lack of availability of auto scaling and test time.

#26 apostolis

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:58 AM

might have been a bug when i was testing if it heals more than 3 ..but once it healed me and then jump to another person and once it healed 4 different targets ...anyway... (how can you see at wol where the ticks go ?? to check if it reached 3 or 4 people ? dont think that is possible at least in raid enviroment unless you do your own test in an instance etc..)

where did you see FON scales with haste? curious.

Well i used to prefer casting healing touch to regrowth prepatch when on clearcasting or in certain bosses (since it was also lowering nature swiftness prepatch) One healing touch in certain cases to make the swiftmend cd decrease by 1 sec to make it sync better is not bad esp when damage is high. Also why do you think rg is better esp in clearcasting? healing touch can heal up to 120 (Or more) when crit (ok in this lvl and content nerf its mostly overhealing but in lvl 90?)

Waiting on your thoughts :)

#27 apostolis

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 02:11 PM

some numbers at our current lvl :


with 2005 haste and soul forest you get 12 ticks of wild growth (8 ticks without soul forest) with 2057 haste +soul forest and heroic trinket proc at same time you get 15 ticks


with soul forest 2057 haste without heroic trinket (of haste) proc you get 12 ticks so numbers unless i misread them are wrong.

---with 2057 haste wg ticks are 8 as with 2005 haste so 2057 is no new haste limit on its own ---

18 ticks of lifebloom (with bloom glyph on) with soul forest and 2057 haste



21 ticks of lifebloom with soul forest 2057 haste (with bloom glyph on) and heroic trinket proc (haste) ///

with soul forest + 2057 haste + heroic trinket proc (without bloom glyph on) i got 32 ticks lb

// with soul forest 2057 haste i got 21 ticks of lb (no bloom glyph no heroic trinket proc)



thats it for now ...
(testing the haste as suggested by other sources at 2057 haste no raid buffs)

#28 Earen

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 02:46 PM

I have completed the compendium; however, before posting it I wanted to make sure that we had a general consensus on a few things (listed below). I have largely kept Hamlet's formatting, but did change a few areas - with the main one being the talents section. I have opted to use a table (with a legend) quite similar to the one seen in the resto shaman compendium, where each talent is listed as either recommended, situational or skipped.

If you have any feedback on the below, let me know and I can make changes prior to putting the compendium up for general consumption.

Talents
  • Level 60 Talents: I have recommended both SotF and Incarnation, but listed FoN as Situaltional. I have not been on the beta in a couple of weeks, but FoN was still underperforming the other two abilities at that time - which is also consistent with Kjeldorian's napkin math. If anyone has observed differently, please let me know.
  • Level 90 Talents: I have recommended both Heart of the Wild and Nature's Vigil, but listed Dream of Cenarius as Situational (debating moving it to "skip" in it's current iteration - if anyone has thoughts on that).

Haste Breakpoints
  • I have listed 3039 as our first major breakpoint - this gives us an extra Rejuv tick.
  • I have listed 6652 as our eventual goal once gear is able to support reaching it - this gives us two additional ticks of Wild Growth.

Abilities
  • While I have not done a seperate note on SotF, I did mention its benefits on several places (i.e. in the ability discussing Wild Growth). However, I have retained the discussion of ToL. As such, I think it may also be of benefit to give SotF a similar, seperate note.
  • Kjeldorian, I was thinking of adding a "preferred" SotF rotation based on your math above. Would you be OK if I used your conclusions for this function? I would be happy to PM you what I draft so you can review it to make sure I didn't make an error. Alternatively, if you'd like to do a brief write up of the conclusions with a recommended SotF "rotation" (with and without 4T14) for maximum output I'd be happy to add it in. Just let me know which you'd prefer.

Symbiosis
  • I have stated that the best target for the raid would be to give Symbiosis to a tank.
  • I have stated that if all tanks already have Symbiosis the druid's best target would be the player that offers them an additional survivability ability, unless your raid or an encounter dictates otherwise.

Trinkets
  • I have not put in any information regarding trinkets in as yet (other than "coming soon"), as I thought it would be more beneficial to add that in after we have more experience with both the content and the gear. However, if anyone has early math or thoughts on any of the available trinkets, please let me know and I'd be happy to add it in.

Tree Calcs
  • I have taken out the Tree Calcs explanation for now. Once I have confirmation that someone is upkeeping the spreadsheet, I will add it back in. I believe I saw some chatter in some of the other threads that someone is trying to continue the sheet, but I am uncertain how/if it is currently working or the current state of the spreadsheet. If anyone has additional information to share on this, please let me know.

If you have questions - or disagree - with any of the above, please respectfully let me know. If you want to know if something is part of the compendium, please ask. In the post above I have just listed the things I want to be sure there is a general consensus on before posting.
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#29 Kjeldorian

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 03:18 PM

@ WoL - In the expression editor in the tab with Dashboard, Healing Done, Dashboard etc, you can run "spellid = 81269" that will show every time the Efflo of swiftmend heals. Ideally you'll no more than three people getting healed at every interval.

Example:
Spoiler


Note multiple groups of three people, sometimes one or two people at a time based on Efflo placement.

@FoN - Yes pets scale with our Haste and Crit, a good measure of the treants HT cast time is your HT cast time. (though there is a slight delay between casts as they get new targets, GC mentioned the delay).

@HT vs RG (Glyphed) during OoC, Using sample numbers from above.
RG crit varies from 72k - 74k with a cast time of 1.24 sec, HT varies from 67-70k (134 - 140k crits) with a cast time of 2.06 sec.
w/o Living Seed
  • Healing Per Execution Time [HPET] for RG is ~58.9k
  • HPET for HT is ~33.3, HT Crit is ~66.5k, @12% Crit the average is ~37.3k
I did not include Living Seed because it is still as lackluster as it was in Cata, unless you're Tank Healing and not moving the talent produces a small overall healing done. Their may be cases where you want the reduced swiftmend glyph because you really need efflo about every ~10 (with 4 pc bonus) - 11 (w/o 4 pc bonus) seconds and you will need to consider how your raid handles an encounter.

@SoTF (85 Testing)
Not including the 5% raid haste hurts, with the 5% raid haste and at 15.67% Haste (aka 2005 Haste) you can reach WG Tick 13 with SoTF, LB Tick 27, RJ Tick 7.

w/ and the previously recommended 2032 Haste (30.97% w/ SoW) you get WG Tick 14, LB Tick 31, and RJ Tick 8. Interesting to note you can get WG Tick 8 (31.52% w/ SoW) at 2101 Haste, though I doubt it's worth it at this stage of the xpac given how just like the end of Wrath, shields are doing most of the healing.

w/ (Hard to control, impractical to wait for when it's up, more of a thought exercise) @2005 Haste you get (41.25% w/ Buff up) WG Tick 9. LB Tick 18, RJ Tick 5

@LB (Blooming) for Haste Breakpoint calculation testing shows it follows the existing rule with the original base ticks being 10 instead of 15. I don't know why 2057 was recommended as it's kind of in the middle of nowhere with lifebloom breakpoints in either glyphed or unglyphed form.

#30 Nihlo

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 04:04 PM

Tree Calcs

  • I have taken out the Tree Calcs explanation for now. Once I have confirmation that someone is upkeeping the spreadsheet, I will add it back in. I believe I saw some chatter in some of the other threads that someone is trying to continue the sheet, but I am uncertain how/if it is currently working or the current state of the spreadsheet. If anyone has additional information to share on this, please let me know.


Here is an the latest treecalcs, it's not yet perfect but working and with lvl90 a lot of things will be quite different anyway. Another simple online Calculator would be the HealCalc.

People might also be interested in some proffession-tipps and a basic Dungeon-Item-List to get raid-ready. Something like this.

#31 Earen

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 05:00 PM

Profession information is listed in the compendium, as well as gems, enchants and stat priorities (you can look at the 4.3 version of the compendium for a basic idea of what will be included). The list above is just a few basic points that may be debatable that I wanted to see if there were any additional thoughts on. The list above is not inclusive of even a fraction of the content in the compendium.

I am hesitant to add a "starter gear" list to the compendium, as it will quickly become outdated and the relevancy will be limited as people gain raid gear. If people think it would be helpful, I can perhaps make a second posting with regards to gear in general - as has been done in the past. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?
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#32 Quincunx

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 06:57 PM

The SoTF (Every other SM) model is boosting 8 WGs and 6 RJs. Are we supposed to be getting 14 Swiftmends off in this model, and 12 in every other?

I appreciate that mana management is unconsidered by design, but penalizing the unglyphed WG model for the healing of uncast RJs implies that every empty GCD over a 3m period should be filled with a RJ.

#33 Kjeldorian

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 09:35 PM

@SoTF Miscalc - You are correct regarding the number of swiftmends in the SoTF (WG Glyphed Rotation) which brings the number down 58k from 827k to 769k, the post has been edited.

@WG Unglyphed - That was the base assumption that the untalented Druid would be casting WG / SM off CD and Rejuv as the filler. The arguments for glyphing vs unglyphing has already been addressed when the WG Glyph was proposed back during the 4.3 implementation (early last December) Convenient Link and the conditions have not changed much, WG costs 22% of base mana, RJ costs 16% of base mana, and the difference in GCDs remains the same.

Redid the math, unglyphing ends up hurting at the end :(

#34 Kjeldorian

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 07:31 AM

SoTF Calculations with a 13 second SM:

Three min window, maximum of 13 swiftmends (I do clip .8 of a swiftmend, but we'll consider the lower of the scenario)

SoTF (4 PC / WG Glyph Force Sync)
Casting waiting / delay between every WG and SM with RJ filler (3 seconds of WG downtime or 42 seconds of WG downtime).
  • Gain from WG - 1126k (13.8 WG Casts, 3.4k x 4Gained Ticks x 6 Targets or 81.6k gain per)
  • Loss from Syncing - 319k (4.2 WG Casts Lost @ 183.6k + 5.2 RJ Gained @ 87k)
  • Gain from SW - 171k (1.8 SM Cast, 47.6k + 5.7k x 9 Ticks (Max 3 Targets) - 2.2 RJ Loss @87k)
Total Gain over Non Talented T4 Druid = 978k

27% Gain over the Non-4pc / WG Glyphed Every Other (769k)

SoTF (4 PC / WG Natural Sync)
Casting WG with Swiftmend every 3rd SW when they realign at 39 seconds with a 1 second difference after SM Global.
  • Gain from WG - 367.2k (4.5 WG Casts 3.4k x 4Gained Ticks x 6 Targets or 81.6k gain per)
  • Loss from WG - 34k (.45 WG Casts Lost@ 183.6k +.56 RJ Gained @87k)
  • Gain from RJ - 270k (9.3 Empowered RJ Casts @ 29k gain per)
  • Gain from SW - 171k (1.8 SM Cast, 47.6k + 5.7k x 9 Ticks (Max 3 Targets) - 2.2 RJ Loss @87k)
Total Gain over Non Talented T4 Druid = 774

.7% Gain over the Non-4pc / WG Glyphed Every Other (769k)

Four piece T14 allows for forced syncing to create better bursts or a 1-2 SM / WG combo.

SoTF (4 PC / WG No Glyph Force Sync)
Syncing the 8 sec WG to the 13 sec SM is a 3.76 sec loss for WG[5 sec - 1 GCD] (losing 47% of the possible Wild Growths while it's idle on the CD)
  • Gain from WG Empowered- 3050k (13.8 Casts, 3.4x 13(Empowered) x 5 Targets))
  • Gain from WG Unglyphed - 0k (0 Casts, 3.4x 9Ticks x 5 Targets)
  • Loss from WG Glyphed - 3305k(18 Casts, 3.4 x 9 Ticks x 6 Targets)
  • Gain from RJ - 452k(5.2 RJ Cast, due to (8.7 WG Casts Lost - 4.5 WG from Unglyphed)@87k per)[The 4.5 WG GCDs were originally RJ and would have been subtracted but since they were not used due to loss from sync there is no change]

    Total Gain over Non Talented T4 Druid = 197k

    74% Loss over the Non-4pc / WG Glyphed Every Other (769k)

    SoTF (4 PC / WG No Glyph Force Sync)
    Syncing the 8 sec WG to every 2nd SW reduces the gap to 2 sec. [waiting .76 seconds for WG #3 @ 25.24 sec to sync with SW#2 @ 26 seconds + 1.24 sec GCD to cast SM] (losing 25% of the possible Wild Growths)
    [list]
  • Gain from WG Empowered- 1525k (6.9 Casts, 3.4x 13(Empowered) x 5 Targets))
  • Gain from WG Unglyphed - 2111k (13.8 Casts, 3.4x 9Ticks x 5 Targets)
  • Loss from WG Glyphed - 3305k(18 Casts, 3.4 x 9 Ticks x 6 Targets)
  • Loss from RJ - 291k(3.35 RJ @87k, We cast 2.7 WG more than the 18 WG Base)

Total Gain over Non Talented T4 Druid = 40k

95% Loss over the Non-4pc / WG Glyphed Every Other (769k)

TL DR
If you have the 4 piece you will gain by glyphing WG and by using WG with every SM. If you want to heal without WG glyphed, you should have some very compelling evidence.

#35 JDris87

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 02:37 PM

I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone talking about the benefits of ToL while glyphed for blooming. In heroic raid testing, after blanketing a raid, single stacks of LB were blooming for 40k. Combine that with instant, glyphed RG's from OoC procs and it makes for a substantial throughput CD. The only downfall I can see is the number of GCD's sacrificed.

#36 apostolis

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 03:08 PM

Well i dont see much of hps increase while going tree and apply lb in raid. What is interesting to compare is how much healing, the bloom gluph does vs non glyph lbs

I will use numbers i am seeing at my screen now :

1 application of non glyph lifebloom does 21 ticks of 1214 healing per tick (i ignore few critical ticks of 2501 healing) plus 16k healing (non crit) a total of 41 to 42 k healing
1 application of glyph lifebloom does 12 ticks of 1214 healing per tick (i ignore few critical ticks of 2501 healing) plus an average of 24k healing (non crit) a total of 38 to 39 k healing



My stats are 2057 haste, 24,47% mastery 17,27% crit spirit 2072 (2338 per 5 secs mana regen) with no buffs at all. Also the above numbers are without any trinket procs.

As some people have said healing is dynamic so it all goes down to how each one heals and use his cds since there are lot of considerations to make the choice of glyph bloom a good or bad one. For example more ticks more chance to have a crit lb tick on the other hand 3 applications of lb with bloom glyph will return 70k healing when they bloom making a quite nice healing for tanks that have their hp going up and down (e.g. impales or morchok's damage or even yor's add if you can time it between purple debuff being reapplied)

My 2 cents.

#37 JDris87

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:10 PM

I was certain you were wrong, but it turns out that you're right. I went ahead and used your numbers.

W/O glyph: 1.4 ticks per sec @1699.6 hps with a 16k bloom.
W/ glyph: 1.2 ticks per sec @1456.8 hps with a 24k bloom.

Assuming you're preemptively hot'ing 7 seconds before damage goes out, we'll spend 7 GCD and measure accordingly from there. Each LB application will be measured by itself first and measurement will start as soon as the damage goes out(exactly 7 seconds after the first application). There are no overheals and there are no crits. Haste will be set at 2057 without a trinket proc.

With Glyph
1st application: has 3 seconds remaining=4370.4+24k=28370.4
2nd application: 4 seconds remaining=5827.2+24k=29827.2
3rd application: 5 seconds remaining=7284+24k=31284
4th application: 6 seconds remaining=8740.8+24k=32740.8
5th application: 7 seconds remaining=10197.6+24k=34197.6
6th application: 8 seconds remaining=11654.4+24k=35654.4
7th application: 9 seconds remaining=13111.2+24k=37111.2
LB ONLY with glyph of blooming totals over 10 seconds=229185.6=22918.56 hps from LB alone.

I'll use the OoC calculation for both with and without glyphs. It's fair to assume that with 7 applications of LB, OoC will proc 5 times in a 10 second period. This calculation is easy since we're glyphed for RG and there's no HoT effect. We will also assume each RG is a crit.

OoCx5 x 60k=300000=30000 hps from RG alone.

That leaves us with 52,918.56 hps over a 17 second period with a 10 second active time.
There's still 5 GCD's to use in this calculation but I would rather just do a straight comparison of with or without glyph of blooming.

Since we'll be gaining 5 extra seconds without the glyph, I'll add 5 extra targets starting 12 seconds before damage goes out. The last 5 applications will not bloom since damage is stopping after 10 seconds.

Without Glyph
1st application: has 3 seconds remaining=5098.8+16k=21098.8
2nd application: 4 seconds remaining=6798.4+16k=22798.4
3rd application: 5 seconds remaining=8498+16k=24498
4th application: 6 seconds remaining=10197.6+16k=26197.6
5th application: 7 seconds remaining=11897.2+16k=27897.2
6th application: 8 seconds remaining=13596.8+16k=29596.8
7th application: 9 seconds remaining=15296.4+16k=31296.4
8th application: 9 seconds remaining=15296.4
9th application: 9 seconds remaining=15296.4
10th application: 9 seconds remaining=15296.4
11th application: 9 seconds remaining=15296.4
12th application: 9 seconds remaining=15296.4
LB ONLY without glyph of blooming totals over 10 seconds=259865.2=25986.52 hps from LB alone.

Combined with the 30k hps gives us a total of 55986.52 hps. It's actually going to be more since there'll be more OoC procs.

As far as its utility on tanks, that will be an easy judgement call to make if you're using timers.

#38 apostolis

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 10:27 AM

If i remember correctly since i need to check again the glyph regrowth is also producing less healing than the non glyph regrowth but it will be interesting to see numbers when someone has the glyph regrowth + power torrent + tree form (and innervate at same time to reduce the instant cost of regrowths ->for the sake of testing only this combo) .

Then run numbers without the glyph regrowth + tree form+power torrent +heroic trinket proc (with and without) since the haste is affecting our regrowth ticks (and innervate at same time to reduce the instant cost of regrowths ->for the sake of testing only this combo)

I think it will be very good if we can examine what is the best glyphs (bloom,wild growth,regrowth) to have while selecting incarnation. We can then have the incarnation talent vs sotf talent debate under a new scope.

p.s. Apologies if the comparison have been made with all the above assumptions already .

#39 Kjeldorian

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 07:23 AM

As already mentioned the main problem with LB (Blooming) is the GCDs lost. To put this in a better frame of mind:

In a three minute fight, you end up using eighteen GCDs to maintain your LB stack since you'll have to hard cast LB to refresh the stack where you can spend zero GCDs to maintain your LB stack without it glyphed. And keeping lifebloom rolling is essential for your mana because Omen of Clarity is the only self major mana mechanic outside of Innervate.

The second reason against Blooming is generally the unpredictability of the bloom component, in Cata there are few fights where there is the need for a predictable bloom that isn't already covered via H Pally / D Priest shields. In practice, the bloom portion will tend to end up healing poorly with a 80%+ overheal unless the fight has a Loatheb mechanic (Yors'ahj Purple). In MoP, having seen all of the fights in one iteration or another, there are few fights where you can use the 10 second bloom effectively that once again isn't addressed by the prior.

Regarding JDRis87's analysis, 5 OoC procs in 10 seconds is very generous as with a 4% chance every tick you would only have a 24.9% chance of that occurring (12 ticks @ 21.43% Haste, 96% per none event, 7 events)

@ Regrowth, I'll use the level 90 numbers posted before.
RG Crit - 74k
RG Normal - 37k
RG Ticks - 2.8k
12% Crit, 21.47% Haste (RG Tick 4)

RG Unglyphed
Weighted Avg: 37k (28% No Crit) +74k (72% Crit) + 2.8k x 4 (88% No Crit) + 5.6k x 4 (12% Crit) = 76.2k

RG Glyphed
74k

Without including living seed, RG Unglyphed has a slight advantage over RG Glyphed, however Living Seed results in the table flipping for it glyphed.

RG Ungylphed:
76.2k + 22.2k (.72%) = 92.2k

RG Glyphed
74k + 22.2k = 96.2k

The only other factor is the refresh of the HoT if the target is below 50% which requires consistently low players or a healer mechanic.

It ends up being situational between the two, where one favors Tank Healing (Glyphed) vs Heavy Raid Healing (Unglyphed) but the situation would have to be rather extreme for the difference to shine (less than 5% difference between the two)

Final Note:
WG (Unglyphed) / LB (Bloom) are both losses due to the loss GCDs unless a boss mechanic has a specific mechanic such as no healing allowed after a certain extend or a boss pulses every 8 seconds. (Hoping then by using these glyphs we minimize our overheal on said spells) If the spell isn't great in your normal caster form which will be 83% of the time if you pop ToL every time it's up, ToL will not make it any better.

#40 tyo07

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 02:02 PM

hello, I am a bit curious whether I should utilize mushroom heal whenever posibble because to put 3 shroom all the time will means I lose 3 seconds at least and 1 seconds to detonate. That means I only have 6 seconds to track other people and with that time, I find it hard to manage my hot. Later in MoP when damage goes spiky, I'm fairly sure that sometimes I will miss that mass blanketing rejuv. In other hand, shroom detonate is a cheap and good AoE hea(app 15k for 3 shroom)..

So yeah, I just think that I will never have a time to cast that healing touch or nourish. Anybody thinking the same?




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