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[MoP] Survival Hunter 5.4


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#1 Esoth

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 12:36 AM

This post has been promoted to an article
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#2 Esoth

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 12:38 AM

I realize there are some formatting and grammar mistakes in this post. This post was thrown up a bit hastily so that players looking for an SV guide can have one tonight. However, I have not had a chance to properly polish this draft, for which I apologize.

edit: some of the Wowhead links are "broken" in that they are pointing to reused spell or item IDs. This will have to wait for Wowhead to be updated.
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#3 Rivkah

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 01:40 AM

A few notes to consider:

- Snake trap may be worth including in the rotation, especially for SV which gets extra snakes, until they nerf it. Currently it scales pretty well at 90 (haven't tested 85) since it now scales with RAP, haste and crit

- In my sims I was noticing that if you have a burst of high focus where you actually have to choose between prioritizing cobra shot to keep your sting from falling off, or just manually reapplying it later, it looks like it's actually more beneficial to just reapply later. This is a combination of the fact that improved serpent sting is not bad damage and the fact that we have a lot more focus flow than we used to so spending 25 focus to reapply it isn't as big a problem

- Lynx rush and murder of crows are giving different results depending on the sim. This is partly due the timing of rabid lining up with lynx rush (especially if you time readiness where you can get 2 lynx rush off during rabid). Murder is likely to be a more reliable and less timing sensitive talent, but simc actually puts lynx rush above murder

- Since barrage suppresses your autoshot (powershot no longer does) it doesn't scale as well with haste as powershot

#4 CamelKnight

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 08:11 PM

Thanks for this!

I see from a couple of tests on dummy's that http://elitistjerks..../#Lock_and_Load still applies.
You still get 8 ticks (5 dots, 3 normal hits) from Explosive Shot after getting Lock and Load. An "interleaving" shot, as it's called in the link I posted, still isn't necessary anymore.

I thought I'd mention it since you do point towards the Lock and Load section but you seem to have missed it while writing this :)

#5 Esoth

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 06:16 PM

I did miss writing that and will do so now, thank you for pointing that out. You are correct that it only does 8 ticks, but as mentioned here the damage on one or more ticks compensates for it. No damage is lost - it just does the total damage over 8 ticks instead of 9.
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#6 Lokrick

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 06:44 PM

I did miss writing that and will do so now, thank you for pointing that out. You are correct that it only does 8 ticks, but as mentioned here the damage on one or more ticks compensates for it. No damage is lost - it just does the total damage over 8 ticks instead of 9.


The important thing is that the number of ticks no longer matters; you will get all the damage. The reason I point this out is that what's actually going on is slightly more complicated, and the difference matters in some cases. Each explosive shot is an immediate direct damage impact (and so triggers trinkets and effects based on direct damage) and two ticks of "rolling" dot. The dot mechanics are unusual, however; the key characteristics are:
  • Like the standard "dot refresh" behavior, if the dot was already present, it will get one more tick plus the two new ones. Thus there will be exactly three ticks after the last impact of a set of explosive shots, and they will follow the same tick period as the previous dot (e.g., if ticks were happening at 1.15, 2.15, etc., additional ticks will be at approximately 3.15, 4.15, etc.).
  • The total damage for any remaining ticks of the prior dot will be summed with the total damage for the new ticks, and that total will be split across the new tick count (which will be 3 ticks).
  • Each tick can individually crit.
  • Crits, damage reduction, target debuffs, etc. are decided at the time of each tick (e.g., with Zakalwe casting Curse of Elements between ticks, we saw the difference from tick to tick).
This is similar to "ignite" behavior for mages, except that the ticks individually crit. Since the number of ticks no longer matters, the primary reason for spamming explosive shot is simply to get it on cooldown as soon as possible. However that may not be important: dire beast, glaive toss, and and kill shot all are short cooldowns with higher impact, and so may be higher priority than any of the individual explosive shots, especially the third focus-costing explosive shot of a lock and load sequence. It turns out to be quite nice that the rolling dot behavior basically doesn't influence that priority at all.

#7 Fluflis

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 12:51 AM

Since I don't see it anywhere mentioned, concerning the opening I believe casting a Black Arrow and after the Readiness Explosive trap (if bosses actually activate it) would give the maximum chance for LnL since you can't have double Black Arrow.

I mentioned it on Marksmanship thread as well, apart from the damage differences between A Murder of Crows and Lynx Rush it's worth noting that you can use the second Lynx Rush with Readiness 4second after the first one which is not only inside Rabid timer but also in side the first Agility potion timer. Whereas with Murder of Crows you have to wait full 30 seconds from the first to use the second after Readiness. I don't know how much of a damage difference that is and how much the time range of fight kill affects it, but it's one more factor to consider.
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#8 Rivkah

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 02:14 AM

Since I don't see it anywhere mentioned, concerning the opening I believe casting a Black Arrow and after the Readiness Explosive trap (if bosses actually activate it) would give the maximum chance for LnL since you can't have double Black Arrow.


It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure that it's actually worth doing. Some things to note:
- Unless you've just cast BA you may be pushing back your next BA (even if the BA DoT is close to full duration, you will push it back a bit as the duration is shorter than the CD)
- Explosive trap does roughly half as much damage as black arrow per tick in good gear
- Although you will increase your LnL proc rate slightly, there is still a 10 sec ICD on LnL, so there's a limit on how much you gain from this
- The usual hassles associated with trap placement such as fiddling with position, target moving, etc.

#9 Malabarba

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 03:04 PM

Question on Thrill of the Hunt for Survival.

I was practicing some rotations with TotH and noticed that I'd frequently get a streak of Lock and Load and Thrill of the Hunt triggering one after the other. Occasionally this would happen when I was already at a decently high level of focus. In this case, I'd try to fire off as many of the shots as possible (preferring explosive shot over arcane shot), but would spend so much time firing free shots that Serpent Sting would fall off. (And unfortunately it's not like BM's Bestial Wrath where you can fire a Cobra shot first to prevent you from needing to refresh until right at the end)

Ideally, you want a few things to be the case:
1) With Thrill of the Hunt, you want to get the Arcane Shots fired off ASAP so that you don't trigger it while it's already active, thus wasting one of the free Arcane Shots.
2) You don't want to let Serpent Sting drop off;
3) You don't want to fire a Cobra Shot when you're close to capping focus.

I kept running into a conflict though and am not sure what the best way to handle it though:
I figure if focus isn't high, a Cobra Shot is easily interleaved because it doesn't cost focus, so won't trigger a new Thrill of the Hunt. But if focus is high, Explosive Shot is on cooldown, and Thrill of the Hunt is active, we don't really have a very good focus dump to prevent us from capping except perhaps for a manual application of Serpent Sting.

So where's the approximate breakpoint for focus capping and using a cobra shot to keep Serpent Sting up versus letting serpent sting fall off and applying it after you've burned through all of your Thrill of the Hunt procs? (Or is there something else I'm missing entirely)

#10 Lilbitters

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 03:49 PM

[...]But if focus is high, Explosive Shot is on cooldown, and Thrill of the Hunt is active, we don't really have a very good focus dump to prevent us from capping except perhaps for a manual application of Serpent Sting.

So where's the approximate breakpoint for focus capping and using a cobra shot to keep Serpent Sting up versus letting serpent sting fall off and applying it after you've burned through all of your Thrill of the Hunt procs? (Or is there something else I'm missing entirely)


Using Multi-Shot would be a better solution, as it does more damage than casting a normal Serpent Sting, extends the DoT at full duration (which is better than just a 6 second extension from Cobra Shot), and utilizes the excess focus that would otherwise be wasted if you were focus capped. You also get the potential benefit of it hitting a secondary target if one happens to be in range.
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#11 Whitefyst

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 06:41 PM

I kept running into a conflict though and am not sure what the best way to handle it though:
I figure if focus isn't high, a Cobra Shot is easily interleaved because it doesn't cost focus, so won't trigger a new Thrill of the Hunt. But if focus is high, Explosive Shot is on cooldown, and Thrill of the Hunt is active, we don't really have a very good focus dump to prevent us from capping except perhaps for a manual application of Serpent Sting.


Lilbitters previous post has the best answer since it better uses the focus, "extends SrS", and does good damage.

However, I do want to point out that you should not overly be concerned with overcapping focus. So many people seem to think that it is a sin to ever cap focus, and that is not true. It is only unideal to cap focus due to poor shot selection (which is indeed the majority of the cases where people cap focus). However, it is never unideal to overcap focus when you are performing the best possible shot selection that you can under the current situation.

So if you are overcapping focus a lot, the first thing to ask is if there is any changes you make where you can better utilize that focus for increased DPS. If there is, then make the adjustments to better utilize the focus. However, if there are no adjustments to make and you are confident that you are performing the maximum DPS shot selection, then do not worry about the overcapping.

#12 danshot

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 10:39 AM

Does that mean it's ideal to pull with multi-shot instead of serpent sting?

with all of our new CDS, what's the ideal survival hunter opening rotation?

1-multi-shot
2-stampede
3-crow
4-db
5-rf
6-readiness
7-stampede
8-db
9-explosive shot
10-black arrow

that means our first black arrow would be so late though

#13 Lilbitters

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 08:00 PM

Does that mean it's ideal to pull with multi-shot instead of serpent sting?

with all of our new CDS, what's the ideal survival hunter opening rotation?

I have been doing a bit of testing with my opening rotation and have discovered a few things that might not be easily apparent, although they do make sense when you think about it.

An example is delaying Stampede to be almost the lowest priority ability just above Cobra Shot and Arcane Shot. Although it's our highest damage per execution time ability, because of it being such a long cooldown and not being reset by Readiness, there isn't an immediate need to cast it early, as long as it still benefits from haste effects and the pre-pot. Obviously encounter length would determine the merit of this, but as long as the encounter doesn't end between 5:20 and 5:30 or between 10:20 and 10:30, then delaying Stampede initially by 10 seconds wouldn't reduce the overall number of times it can be cast and used for full duration.

Trying various priority rotations in FemaleDwarf led me to the settle with the following opening (which is partially troll specific, Berserking allows for enough focus regen for an additional Arcane Shot to replace a Cobra Shot at the 15th GCD). Also for Survival, there is a large period of just using Explosive/Arcane Shots, but the actual timing of them may be different due to Lock and Load proc timing, this just assumes the best case scenario of it being within the first 5 ticks of the initial Black Arrow cast. Note that the due to stacking Rapid Fire with Heroism/Bloodlust on the pull, the openings listed below are possible with 0 haste from gear, making Cobra Shot a 0.999 second cast time. Also a second Virmen's Bite is listed, but I haven't actually calculated whether it's more beneficial to save it for the Kill Shot phase and lined up with later cooldowns (although Heroism/Bloodlust wouldn't be available again unless the encounter is over 10 minutes) and it may be more beneficial to save it for a more crucial DPS check phase, so that can be omitted.

The following are the first 25 GCDs that I've been using in live Beta testing and how I had to adjust the settings to make FemaleDwarf model it relatively accurately:
Survival Opening:
-03: Hunter's Mark
-02: Misdirection
-01: Virmen's Bite (Pre-potion)
+00: Black Arrow, Petattack (Heroism/Bloodlust activated)
+01: Rabid, A Murder of Crows
+02: Rapid Fire, Berserking, Dire Beast
+03: Glaive Toss
+04: Explosive Shot (needs 0.19 delay for non-Troll)
+05: Readiness
+06: Dire Beast
+07: Glaive Toss
+08: Explosive Shot
+09: Stampede
+10: Multi-Shot
+11: Explosive Shot (LNL)
+12: Explosive Shot (LNL)
+13: Explosive Shot
+14: Arcane Shot (Cobra Shot for non-Troll)
+15: Arcane Shot
+16: Arcane Shot
+17: Arcane Shot
+18: Black Arrow
+19: Explosive Shot
+20: Rapid Fire, Cobra Shot
+21: Cobra Shot
+22: Glaive Toss
+23: Arcane Shot
+24: Virmen's Bite, Arcane Shot

-Priority: BA,aMoC,RF,DB,KS,GT,ES,Ready,Stamp,Multi,AS,CoS
-Arcane at min focus:60
-Uncheck don't save for Serp
-Check don't save for aMoC


I used the same approach for coming up with a Beast Mastery opening which is below.
Beast Mastery Opening:
-03: Hunter's Mark
-02: Misdirection
-01: Virmen's Bite (Pre-potion)
+00: Serpent Sting, Petattack (Heroism/Bloodlust activated)
+01: Bestial Wrath, Rabid, A Murder of Crows
+02: Kill Command
+03: Dire Beast
+04: Glaive Toss
+05: Rapid Fire, Berserking, Readiness
+06: Kill Command
+07: Dire Beast
+08: Glaive Toss
+09: Stampede
+10: Arcane Shot
+11: Arcane Shot
+12: Kill Command
+13: Cobra Shot
+14: Arcane Shot
+15: Arcane Shot
+16: Arcane Shot
+17: Arcane Shot
+18: Bestial Wrath, Kill Command
+19: Cobra Shot
+20: Rapid Fire, Arcane Shot
+21: Arcane Shot
+22: Arcane Shot
+23: Glaive Toss
+24: Virmen's Bite, Kill Command

-Priority: SrS,BW,aMoC,KS,KC,DB,GT,FF,RF,Ready,Stamp,AS,CoS
-Arcane at min focus:60
-Uncheck don't save for SrS
-Check don't save for aMoC


Haven't had the chance to analyze the Marksmanship opening, but I'm sure Whitefyst already has recommendations.

Edit: I was going from the results from FemaleDwarfs simulated shot breakdown, however I came to realize that FD is using a GCD for Readiness, when in fact it does not use a GCD. This may require a shift in shot selection during the opening, but the priority should remain the similar.
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#14 Rivkah

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 05:16 AM

Edit: I was going from the results from FemaleDwarfs simulated shot breakdown, however I came to realize that FD is using a GCD for Readiness, when in fact it does not use a GCD. This may require a shift in shot selection during the opening, but the priority should remain the similar.


I've fixed the GCD issue, thanks for bringing that to my attention.

One thing to note is that making sure you get as much of your stampede as possible overlapping with as many haste CDs as possible is beneficial because the extra focus regen can affect the number of basic attacks and the number that benefit from wild hunt. Troll berserking affects pet attack speed and regen as well (unlike rapid fire which only affects the pet regen), so making sure stampede gets most of it is also valuable (dire beast also sees a benefit, again unlike rapid fire). I'm not sure if it outweighs the slight delay you might incur on other abilities but it's something to keep in mind.

#15 Namarus

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 01:11 PM

I've fixed the GCD issue, thanks for bringing that to my attention.

One thing to note is that making sure you get as much of your stampede as possible overlapping with as many haste CDs as possible is beneficial because the extra focus regen can affect the number of basic attacks and the number that benefit from wild hunt. Troll berserking affects pet attack speed and regen as well (unlike rapid fire which only affects the pet regen), so making sure stampede gets most of it is also valuable (dire beast also sees a benefit, again unlike rapid fire). I'm not sure if it outweighs the slight delay you might incur on other abilities but it's something to keep in mind.


On that note I was wondering if during your testing you noticed if Dire Beast's haste changed dynamically with haste changes from the hunter.

For example,

1. Use Dire Beast
2. Haste increase or decreases

Do Dire Beast attacks increase, decrease or remain static?

#16 Rivkah

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 04:36 PM

On that note I was wondering if during your testing you noticed if Dire Beast's haste changed dynamically with haste changes from the hunter.

For example,

1. Use Dire Beast
2. Haste increase or decreases

Do Dire Beast attacks increase, decrease or remain static?


Dire Beast has a base attack speed of 2 and does scale with the hunter's melee haste similar to hunter pets. I don't believe it scales with ranged haste like rapid fire (pretty sure I checked, but it's been a bit so it might not hurt to recheck). So the haste will increase the number of attacks your Dire Beast gets, which increases the damage done and the focus regen it gives the hunter, as long as the attack speed becomes fast enough to fit in additional attacks during the period Dire Beast is active for.

For example, with no haste on the hunter, the Dire Beast can get between 7-8 attacks (7.5). With heroism up, it goes up to 9-10 (9.75). Usually the extra attack will fit in since there is no delay on the first attack, but it seems a little erratic and doesn't always squeeze in the same amount of attacks for the same haste.

#17 Namarus

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 06:46 PM

Dire Beast has a base attack speed of 2 and does scale with the hunter's melee haste similar to hunter pets. I don't believe it scales with ranged haste like rapid fire (pretty sure I checked, but it's been a bit so it might not hurt to recheck). So the haste will increase the number of attacks your Dire Beast gets, which increases the damage done and the focus regen it gives the hunter, as long as the attack speed becomes fast enough to fit in additional attacks during the period Dire Beast is active for.

For example, with no haste on the hunter, the Dire Beast can get between 7-8 attacks (7.5). With heroism up, it goes up to 9-10 (9.75). Usually the extra attack will fit in since there is no delay on the first attack, but it seems a little erratic and doesn't always squeeze in the same amount of attacks for the same haste.


I think you misunderstood what I was trying to ask. Let me try to explain it again.

As you say you get around 7.5 attacks with zero haste when you summon a dire beast. However, does the number of attacks increase if you summon a 0 haste dire beast and then gain a haste effect, or does the "proc" haste effect have no effect on an already summoned Dire Beast.

Alternately if you have a haste proc active and summon a dire beast will it keep the haste that it was summoned at if the proc haste expires while it is active?

In other words does the Dire Beast update it's attack speed dynamically as hunter haste changes, while active?

#18 Rivkah

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 07:13 PM

In other words does the Dire Beast update it's attack speed dynamically as hunter haste changes, while active?


I'm fairly sure it does, although I didn't do detailed tests on the frequency of updates as it's difficult to measure precisely. Blizzard made changes in this expansion to make guardian style pets no longer freeze stats on summon but instead be kept up to date with the summoner stats. This applies to pets like fire elementals as well. I will note that my site doesn't accurately reflect this- the attack count is calculated when you summon the dire beast as it would have required a significant amount of extra code to explicitly simulate each dire beast attack separately.

#19 LilM8

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 01:58 PM

I was thinking about the best course of action in multi target fights, more specifically: when to use SrS or Multi Shot for multi dotting.

Here are my thoughts so far, using numbers from Rivkah's femaledwarf.com with my own char as a reference:


A. 2 or more targets, spread far apart

1 AS: 32900 dmg, 20 focus = 1645 DPF
1 SrS: 53969 dmg, 25 focus = 2159 DPF

Using SrS to dot other targets seems to be clearly better than only using AS as a focus dump, even when assuming that the other targets won't have the 5% spell damage debuff.


B. 2 targets next to each other (i.e. Stone Guard in Mogu'shan Vaults)

a) using 1 MS every 15 sec to also dot the second target:

One MS cast does ((10307 MS dmg + 16268 Imp SrS dmg) * 2 targets) + 53969 dmg for a full SrS on the secondary target
-> 107119 dmg for 40 focus = 2678 DPF

B) "spamming" MS

I'm not sure how to calculate what happens when you use MS instead of AS as a focus dump all the time. Let's say only the MS does damage, while the SrS dot has no chance to tick (which obviously is too low, because you can't just spam MS all the time):
((10307 MS dmg + 16268 Imp SrS dmg) * 2 targets)
-> 53150 dmg for 40 focus = 1328 DPF

So with two targets next to each other, it seems to be a good idea to use MS every 15 seconds to also dot the second target. I'm not sure what happens if you would simply use MS as a focus dump instead of AS while maintaining your normal rotation otherwise. FD.com says for 1 target it's "only" a loss of 2228 DPS (60637 DPS -> 58409 DPS), so for two targets the DPS loss will be smaller. Maybe it would be even a DPS gain.

C. 3 targets next to each other

a) using 1 MS every 15 sec to also dot the 2 other targets:

((10307 MS dmg + 16268 Imp SrS dmg) * 3 targets) + 53969 * 2 dmg for a full SrS on both other targets
-> 187663 dmg for 40 focus = 4692 DPF


B) "spamming" MS
Let's say again that the SrS dots don't do any damage at all, because I don't know how to calculate the dots:
((10307 MS dmg + 16268 Imp SrS dmg) * 3 targets)
->79725 dmg for 40 focus = 1993 DPF

I'm not sure what to make of 3 target fights. The DPF and DPS becomes better than using AS, so using MS as a focus dump while maintaining your normal rotation otherwise seems advantageous.
Would it be even better to forego other shots completely, only using CoS and MS? I don't know. ES only does 50499 dmg for 35 focus = 2020 DPF for me, which is comparable, and the DPS is worse... on the other hand there are the free LnL ES.

--
edit:
Maybe FD can help if I try to alter the priority list a bit more. Using my own character as a reference:

2 targets, normal rotation but using MS instead of AS as the focus dump:
According to FD, this would be a loss of 2162 DPS in my case, but MS and Imp SrS do 3294 DPS which would be gained on the secondary target.

2 targets, spec into TotH instead of DB and use MS as the focus dump:
For a single target this would mean a loss of 4930 DPS and a gain of 4311 DPS from MS and Imp SrS on the second target, so it seems to be not a good idea. (For three targets, with 4311 DPS on both secondary targets it obviously would be worthwile to take TotH over DB)

3 targets, AoE rotation (ExT, RF, MS and CoS only, specced into TotH):
This would mean 21568 DPS lost single target, but 11934 *2 = 23868 DPS gained on the other targets. Without TotH it only would be 8140 *2 = 16280 DPS gained, though.


To sum up my thoughts so far:

- multi dotting with SrS is better than a simple AS if targets are spread far apart

- 2 targets next to each other: one MS at least every 15 sec is good; using MS instead of AS as the focus dump while still maintaining the normal rotation seems even slightly better. Speccing into TotH is not advisable, since it's a minor DPS loss.

- 3 targets next to each other: Using MS instead of AS as the focus dump is good; using the AoE rotation (Explosive Trap, Multi Shot, Cobra Shot, Glaive Toss or Barrage) seems slightly better if you're specced into TotH and worse if you are not.

#20 sircuddles

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 09:47 AM

I'm curious about our optimal opener while using MoC, since it has such a huge focus cost. What I've been doing, which I'm not sure is optimal, is the following (~4.5% Haste):

MoC
Stampede
RF/Berserk
DB
ES
GT
BA
SrS
CS
ES
Readiness

This gives me just enough focus to last through the opener and not be starved of focus. Popping RF/Zerk and DB earlier gives the most focus regen as early as possible. I've found that when I use a 'regular' opener, like with SrS or ES first, I'm ending up starved and forced to CS at awkward times.




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