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#21 Tydas

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:54 AM

Well that's not realy optimal since the point is getting some extra timing.
Having a key to stopcast would mean that we'll lose reaction time.
Getting closer to an irrelevant move since we already lose 1sec GCD. I won't even talk about your " turning back " as you can admit that it is 100% non-optimal. :P
Well it's not that bad but if we could "/stopcast [if=casting]" or something like that it would just improve our reaction time.

#22 Nooska

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:45 AM

Your wished for conditional is actually built in to the /stopcasting command, as it does nothing unless you are actually casting. My point is that when you want to stop casting CoS or SS, it is because you want to stop your output - hence turning your back works very well. The first part of my post is that you do not want to stop casting your CoS or SS in any case where you are trying to poor out as much DPS as possible. Also allow med to make a correction here - we should not be spamming our keys, we should be hitting them as close a spossible to being able to use a new ability, correcting for latency - you should only ever hit a key once to trigger an ability.

#23 Lokrick

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:00 PM

Your wished for conditional is actually built in to the /stopcasting command, as it does nothing unless you are actually casting. My point is that when you want to stop casting CoS or SS, it is because you want to stop your output - hence turning your back works very well. The first part of my post is that you do not want to stop casting your CoS or SS in any case where you are trying to poor out as much DPS as possible. Also allow med to make a correction here - we should not be spamming our keys, we should be hitting them as close a spossible to being able to use a new ability, correcting for latency - you should only ever hit a key once to trigger an ability.


It is worth noting that in the case of Cobra or Steady Shots, turning around is not enough: you will continue to cast the shot and only "realize" that it won't work once it tries to fire. For example, you can start the cast while facing the target dummy, turn away, then turn back before the cast completes and it will still hit the target (all while moving/jumping).

#24 Nooska

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:09 AM

Just to be absolutely clear (as it seems I haven't been) - yes, turning around doesn't cancel the cast untill it is completed and fails with a "target must be in front of you" error. This carries over from my point of never cancelling a cast to try to increase your damage output, it only matters if you need to stop your damage output (for whatever reason, there can be many).

#25 CrenVerdis

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:21 AM

Is this viable Nooska?
I get it about stopping damage output and that there are different ways to do so. But take for example my gear. SV reforged I have roughly the same haste as I do now. This leaves my Cobras at ca. 1.7s casttime. Is this .7s time of finishing the cast still a dps increase over the course of a fight? On longer fights I could imagine being one ES short for not canceling for ES.

#26 Nooska

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:58 PM

Looking at it from known values and using that 1.7 second CoS.
1 second is the GCD
We know from simulations that it is a dps gain to delay the nuke for SV and BM (ExS, KC respectively) by .3 seconds. This leaves us with .4 seconds to get the damage of the CoS, versus 1.3 seconds of not damaging. So the valuation (while not obvious) is .4 seconds for a CoS versus delaying the ExS (and additional) .4 seconds. Will those .4 seconds buy us anything over the course of a fight? No, nothing we have will buy us anything in less than .4 seconds, so you gain nothing directly by cancelling your CoS , and you would have to do it 3 times over a fight (and not lose any tenths of a second to indecision or anything else) to even be able to fuin in an extra instant - and as we know, when we add in shots its by default CoS, because we don't gain any focus from nowhere, so really you have to cancel 4 times over a fight to gain 1 CoS - a CoS which you could have gotten 4 times by not cancelling.
If we take the worst case scenario for continuing the CoS shot - that we have the focus to add that instant, we have to cancel 3 times for 1 instant, or to make it neater, 5 times for 2 instants. Then it becomes a valuation of 5 CoS versus 2 AS. CoS will win every time.

Looking at a base 2.0 casttime with raid buff (meaning 1.8 cast time), we don't gain .4 seconds but .5 seconds, so the valuation becomes 2 CoS versus 1 AS, or 4 CoS versus 1 CoS.

Cancelling an ongoing cast will alwyas be a loss of damage, even if cancelled for a higher priority shot - and adding in a human reaction time (choice reaction time, as you don't just have to react, you have to register and decide an action - no reactions here, brain has to be involved) of .3 seconds (which is pretty good for CRT - mean CRT is about .5 - .6 seconds) its easy to see how much time we will usually lose, and the above setup actually relies on a CRT of 0 - beyond human capability.

#27 CrenVerdis

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 04:16 PM

Thank you for your insight, but what happens if LnL proccs within the gcd... say .5s in? you could react to this and even if you add .4 decision time you could still start spamming within that gcd?
Or am I thinking about this timings wrong?
I totally agree with you the later the procc occures the less lucrative it is to cancel.

Furthermore I'm not quite sure if this still belongs in this thread? Maybe a push into the SV one?

#28 Mericet

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:11 PM

I don't know how it affects the calculations but canceling a cobra/steady shot does NOT incur the full 1 second GCD, it actually cuts it short and lets you fire the second shot earlier. You can test this pretty easily with a GCD tracker and a macro on explosive shot or whatever you want. Note that for some reason you need to write /stopcasting on 2 consecutive lines in the macro or it won't always work. If you hit cobra shot and then hit the macro you will cancel the focus shot and fire the second shot in less than a second.

#29 Tydas

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:52 AM

Anyway even if it's not a theoretical DPS gain, while you are facing an encounter there's some situation when you just need to cut the cast.
For example with a KillShot on an Add.

/stopcasting command, as it does nothing unless you are actually casting.

It actually does something really annoying as you spam it, you should try it.
I am not sure if it can affect DPS, but it does affect my patience.
And yes i spam my keys every time i cast something, on the last 0.3 sec at least, to be sure to have the best uptime on my GCD.

#30 Nooska

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:30 AM

Thank you for your insight, but what happens if LnL proccs within the gcd... say .5s in? you could react to this and even if you add .4 decision time you could still start spamming within that gcd?
Or am I thinking about this timings wrong?
I totally agree with you the later the procc occures the less lucrative it is to cancel.

Furthermore I'm not quite sure if this still belongs in this thread? Maybe a push into the SV one?

If it procs within the GCD so you have your CRT inside the GCD as well, we would still need to add the 0.3 seconds after that before seeing the gained time (referring back to our knowledge that delaying a main nuke up to .3 seconds is a gain in dps), so in the 1.7 second casttime shot, its the 0.4 seconds you have as gain time - the time that could beneficially be picked up for a dps increase. However, the .4 seconds gives us a full CoS in this case, as the 1.3 seconds are already off the table.

It could be argued that we should not consider the 0.3 second delay of a main nuke in this case, which leaves us with a 0.7 (worst case scenario 0.8) second CoS, which almost buys us another AS later in the fight (provided focus somehow "magically" exists) or half a CoS, which means 1 CoS versus .7 (.8) AS, or 1 CoS versus ½ a CoS (seeing as focus doesn't just pop out of thin air). It is still more dps to not cancel the cast, as ExS has no part in it - and due to LnL it doesn't even cost us that 0.7/6 ExS because of delay - over the course of a fight the CD of ExS is not the determining mechanism for how many ExS we can use in that given fight.

As to the example of kill shot on an add, unless you are already attacking the add, you have to addin retargetting time, making it even less of a loss of time to finish the CoS (you can retarget while it is casting and it will still hit your original target), and if you are already attacking the add, cancelling the CoS for KS is still a loss of damage on the add, and if the issue is that it will die before you can KS, then it doesn't matter whether you CoS or KS, as the add dies regardless.

As for cancelling affecting not incurring a full GCD, Unles sI am misunderstanding what you mean, you are misunderstanding me. The GCD is incurred upon an action taken (the initiating of a CoS for example). It runs 1 second, regardless of whether you cancel or not. /stopcasting does not incur a GCD at all.

#31 Mericet

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:18 PM

As for cancelling affecting not incurring a full GCD, Unles sI am misunderstanding what you mean, you are misunderstanding me. The GCD is incurred upon an action taken (the initiating of a CoS for example). It runs 1 second, regardless of whether you cancel or not. /stopcasting does not incur a GCD at all.


It's something that I've only been able to test with my own observations, but whenever I try it looks fairly conclusive. Yes, the GCD is incurred when you start to cast cobra shot but if you cancel the cast it also cancels the GCD and allows you to perform another action (it's not necessarily instantaneous but it is noticeably less than a full 1 second).

Start cobra shot and then hit this macro (due to the less-than-instantaneous part you probably will have to spam the macro or at least hit it twice):

/stopcasting
/stopcasting
/cast Explosive Shot

You should see the explosive shot fire less than 1 second after you started the cobra shot, and if you have an addon that visually tracks the GCD in some way (quartz cast bar does this, for example) you should be able to see the GCD reset there as well.

I couldn't find a video demonstrating what I'm talking about but the last post in the following thread sums it up: Stopcasting Dps Increase? - Forums - World of Warcraft. I know it's not evidence but at least it means I'm not a lone lunatic with a crazy story.

#32 aii

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:57 AM

Does /stopcasting in a macro delay auto shot?

#33 Bragaul

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:10 AM

Has anyone experienced an unreliable disengage on Heroic Blade Lord? When we get pulled in, I'll hit disengage and often it won't cast until after I land (sometimes a full second or so). Other times, the disengage stops like it hits a wall. I unbound the ability during the fight so my reflexes don't hit it.

Edit: my latency is ~25ms

#34 o5a

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:36 AM

Has anyone experienced an unreliable disengage on Heroic Blade Lord? When we get pulled in, I'll hit disengage and often it won't cast until after I land (sometimes a full second or so). Other times, the disengage stops like it hits a wall. I unbound the ability during the fight so my reflexes don't hit it.

Edit: my latency is ~25ms

Similar things happened when I was standing too far from boss. His ability is basically a "precast" when he pulls you in and then whirlwind itself, when you can't escape. So if you stand too far, your "flight" takes too long and "precast" part finishes even before you arrive to boss, so your disengage won't work, because in fact whirlwind already started. Tha's how I understand his ability. After I started come closer before whirlwind I didn't have problems with disengage.

#35 7alisman

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:17 PM

Silly question:

Hunters mark has always been (to my knowledge) ranged attack power, and has never benefited casters, however the new tooltip states:

"Places the Hunter's Mark on the target, increasing the ranged damage of all attackers against that target by 5%. In addition, the target of this ability can always be seen by the Hunter whether it stealths or turns invisible. The target also appears on the mini-map. Lasts for 5 min."

I assume the fact that it states "ranged damage" means that the modifier doesn't affect Spell damage, but I can't find any level of confirmation otherwise. Anyone able to clarify whether or not hunter's mark affects spell casters damage? I apologise for my ignorance (I'm not a hunter) but I couldn't find anything from MoP that confirms one way or the other.

#36 Lokrick

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 08:27 AM

Does /stopcasting in a macro delay auto shot?


No. I tested stopcasting's interaction with cobra and was just looking through the logs. Two stopcastings are required to affect the shot at all. No amount of stopcasting had any impact on autoshot. The shortest time to from start cast to interrupt in my log (from me spamming keys) was 400ms start to finish, which is mostly just from me spamming the keys. My stopcasting is exactly for a kill shot macro, so while I don't have any examples of new shots starting in less than a second, that's not evidence one way or the other.

#37 Ganwolfclaw

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:16 AM

Dear all,

Thanks for all the hard work. I was wondering where we were on the Mastery vs. Crit vs. Haste discussion? In addition I was wondering about the Lynx Rush vs. MoCs vs. Blinkstrike. And finally, what would be the appropriate way to use SrS as BM, are we dot-ing everything up on multi targets now? (lots of target switching) or do we nuke down single target still?

Thank you,

Ganwolfclaw

#38 Whitefyst

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:46 PM

I was wondering where we were on the Mastery vs. Crit vs. Haste discussion? In addition I was wondering about the Lynx Rush vs. MoCs vs. Blinkstrike. And finally, what would be the appropriate way to use SrS as BM, are we dot-ing everything up on multi targets now? (lots of target switching) or do we nuke down single target still?


For BM:

It is now crit > mastery >= haste from my understanding, especially with the knowledge that DB extra attacks do not occur at certain haste points but has a higher percentage with more haste. I still recommend having ay least 2K haste though.

Concerning SrS, it now does more damage (almost twice as much even without debuffs on the secondary target) and costs less focus (by 5) than an AS such that if there are 1 or 2 secondary targets that it is beneficial to replace an AS on your primary target with an SrS on a secondary target if it does not already have SrS on it. For AoE situations with more than 3 targets, it is best to use MS instead of worrying about spending multiplie GCDs to apply SrS to several targets.

#39 Shift209

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:45 AM

Curious as to what my fellow hunters here are using to optimize their reforges & gemming. Would it be incorrect to plug the personal stat weights FD provides me with on a site like askmrrobot or wowreforge?

#40 Tphirey

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:01 PM

ReforgeLite addon. If you get a new drop during the raid, you can mount up on your Yak, and be reforged in under 20 seconds.
Developers be nice to your testers. They're the ones that will find the bugs in the AI code when the machines try and take over and keep humanity alive.




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