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Frost DPS 5.0.4 - The Cold Hand of Death


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#21 Mendenbarr

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 05:02 AM

Considering that gems in MoP now favor secondary stats, in that a bold gem will net you 160 str, yet a quick gem grants you 320 haste, has anyone taken a good look at the value of sockets? Going off basic stat values with 509 gear, it appears that gemming haste in yellow, hit in blue, and expertise in red will be an overall dps increase.

The reason I'm not using hit/expertise weights is that, if cata's trend continues, it will be reasonably easy to cap hit and expertise, without the NEED to gem. Should gemming hit/expertise be an advantage, the hit/expertise would be reforged away on other gear, preferably into haste (from a 2 hand perspective)

, 160
, 191.04
, 191.04
320 hit, 191.04
, 191.04
, 191.04
Str and hit/haste, 175.52

It seems to me that, the best choice for the sockets would always be as follows:
Red: 160 expertise, 160 haste
Yellow: 320 haste
Blue: 160 hit, 160 haste

They all have the same value, and therefore you can always go for the socket bonus, unless you have too much hit/expertise to reforge away.

Keeping the gem values in mind, I crunched some of the numbers in the current BiS list, and found that and , while 7 ilevels lower, are better than their 509 counterparts, and .

:
1134 str, 1134
1 red socket w Wicked Vermilion Ony, 191.04
1 blue socket w Lightning Wild Jade, 191.04
120 str socket bonus, 120
575 hit * .597 = 343.275
903 haste * .597 = 539.091
Total: 2518.446

:
1300 str, 1300
1 red socket w Wicked Vermilion Ony, 191.04
60 str socket bonus, 60
767 expertise * 0.597 = 457.899
947 mastery * 0.339 = 321.033
Total: 2329.972

:
881 str, 881
1 blue socket w Lightning Wild Jade, 191.04
60 haste socket bonus * 0.597 = 35.82
553 hit * 0.597 = 330.141
629 haste * 0.597 = 375.513
Total: 1813.514

:
1026 str, 1026
650 crit * 0.394 = 256.1
704 expertise * 0.597 = 420.288
Total: 1702.388

From the preliminary math, it seems slips into BiS, while keeping the tier gloves for the four set. This is assuming that the current sim results are reasonably accurate, and don't change for 509 gear.

Has anyone else noticed anything similar?

#22 Kapaya

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 07:13 PM

Nothing....

#23 Titus Pullo

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 07:52 PM

:
1134 str, 1134
1 red socket w Wicked Vermilion Ony, 191.04
1 blue socket w Lightning Wild Jade, 191.04
120 str socket bonus, 120
575 hit * .597 = 343.275
903 haste * .597 = 539.091
Total: 2518.446

:
1300 str, 1300
1 red socket w Wicked Vermilion Ony, 191.04
60 str socket bonus, 60
767 expertise * 0.597 = 457.899
947 mastery * 0.339 = 321.033
Total: 2329.972

:
881 str, 881
1 blue socket w Lightning Wild Jade, 191.04
60 haste socket bonus * 0.597 = 35.82
553 hit * 0.597 = 330.141
629 haste * 0.597 = 375.513
Total: 1813.514

:
1026 str, 1026
650 crit * 0.394 = 256.1
704 expertise * 0.597 = 420.288
Total: 1702.388

From the preliminary math, it seems slips into BiS, while keeping the tier gloves for the four set. This is assuming that the current sim results are reasonably accurate, and don't change for 509 gear.

Has anyone else noticed anything similar?


You are correct and my numbers agree. should be BiS for 2H. I also found that just exceeds for DW so I've updated both of those in the OP.

For reference, a number of items are very close to BiS and may take over with small tweaks to stat weights so I thought I'd list some of them with the current BiS.

2H
Bracers:
1312.92
1322.79 (current BiS)

Belt:
1860.944
1882.641 (current BiS)


DW
Chest:
2248.949
2254.539 (current BiS)

Gloves:
1745.363
1755.188 (current BiS)

Belt:
1784.626
1790.119 (current BiS)

Weapon:
1128.55
1141.15 (current BiS)

#24 Kruciel

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 03:46 AM

Death’s Advance 30 sec – You passively move 10% faster, and movement-impairing effects may not reduce you below 70% of normal movement speed. When activated, you gain 30% movement speed and may not be slowed below 100% of normal movement speed for 6 seconds.

*This will likely be the go-to talent for this tier when none of the others are necessary. 10% runspeed passively and a 30% boost every 30 seconds will increase uptime on bosses with target switching or lots of movement mechanics. This does stack with the movespeed enchants for boots.


Just dropping by to say all Run Speed enchants do stack with this talent. It would be an extremely lackluster talent for unholy if the passive didn't stack with the passive run speed from Unholy Pres. Run speed enchants do share the same "slot" as Unholy Pres however. So if you're frost, you may consider Lavawalker while leveling and then decide what you want to do at 90.

Frost run speed w/ Death's Advance: 110%
Frost run speed w/ Death's Advance + Boot enchant: 119%

#25 Sorasi

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 07:48 AM

first, sorry for my bad english

When I build a Chardev profile chardev 10 - Mist of Pandaria - BETA with the BiS gear (2h) and reforge on every slot the hit away i´ve got ~1000 hit over cap.
If I change the legs back to (Set) and some gems the result is:
2548 Expertise (maybe someone found the missing two), 2561 Hit, ~300 Haste more and some more Mastery.

Maybe I am completly wrong, but how can be (Jang-xi´s) better if u can´t use the hit?

Hope the wowhead links work correctly

#26 Mendenbarr

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 12:14 PM

Well, I can't find a way to register for chardev, so it doesn't look like I will be able to link the profiles I've made, but here is my stat comparison.
Rules:
Orc frost dk.
All the main enchants, using crit > hit for back, and mastery/speed on boots.
160 expertise/160 haste in red sockets, 160 hit/160 haste in blue sockets, and 320 haste in yellow sockets and prismatic sockets.
Reverb meta
When over hit cap, replace hit/haste with either haste/stam, or pure haste if the socket bonus is worth less than 160 haste.


Reforging:
If the item has hit, reforge it away.
If the item doesn't have hit, reforge the weakest stat.
If the item doesn't have haste, reforge too it.

Profile 1: BiS list
16253 str (1 * 16253) 16253
2566 hit (.674 *2550 + 0*16) 1718.7
2580 expertise (.674 *2550 + 0*30) 1718.7
9304 haste (.597 * 9304) 5554.488
4120 crit (.394 * 4120) 1623.28
1764 mastery (.339 * 1764) 597.996
Total 27466.164
20648 stam


Profile 2: BiS list with tier legs replacing
16364 str (1 * 16364) 16364
2541 hit (.674 *2541) 1712.634
2559 expertise (.674 *2550 + 0*9) 1718.7
8579 haste (.597 * 8579) 5121.663
4678 crit (.394 * 4678) 1843.132
2333 mastery (.339 * 2333) 790.887
Total 27551.016
20538 stam

Obviously these numbers aren't final, but they should make the point that the two choices are quite close, and that even with the tier legs it's possible to reforge away all that hit with the minor sacrifice of missing out on some socket bonuses, yet the benefit of using Jang's legs is also minor.
These numbers assume that chardev is accurate, and as it's still telling me I need 8% hit, I can't say that for sure. The ratings appear to be accurate though.
I'm personally putting the tier legs back into my BiS list for the time being, until other people can confirm or deny this.

#27 Taomi

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 08:45 AM

Why is the Trinket Carbonic Carbuncle valued so low?

According to the given formula its value is: (847*1)+((3386*0,394)/105) = 859, 7
while for example Lessons of the Darkmaster's value is: (847*0,674)+((4232*1)/120) = 606,14

These calculations were done using the 2H values.

Or did I miss something in these calculations?

#28 djxak

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 01:42 AM

You forget to multiply by proc time.
(847*1)+((3386*0,394)/105*30) = 1228,17
(847*0,674)+((4232*1)/120*20) = 1276,21

#29 CB2BiG4U

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 01:44 AM

I dont know of anywhere this has been stated. Howling Blast is not applying Frost Fever to any secondary targets off of the first primary target. Tooltip says it should be.

Tested this with two seperate Death Knights. Is this intended? Stealth Nerf?

#30 Magdalena

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 03:36 AM

I dont know of anywhere this has been stated. Howling Blast is not applying Frost Fever to any secondary targets off of the first primary target. Tooltip says it should be.

Tested this with two seperate Death Knights. Is this intended? Stealth Nerf?


A similar problem has been confirmed with Unholy Blight. It is highly doubtful that this is a nerf- a bug seems like a much more reasonable explanation. In both cases, we've documented and reported what's happening. Hopefully, we'll see a fix by Tuesday.

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#31 Jessamy

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 01:21 PM

I produced stat weights (EP values) using the simcraft t14h dw frost profile, race changed to troll. Using those weights, I produced a ranking that differs from the list in the OP.

I'm preserving the list so the context of the conversation makes sense, but putting it in spoiler tags so people don't use it as a reference.
Spoiler


#32 Titus Pullo

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 04:10 PM

The big differences I'm seeing between our lists is likely due to ICDs. A surprisingly large number of trinkets don't follow the expected 1/6 uptime. GC talks about a number of them in this [post] and a few more two posts down. The Zen Alchemist Stone has a confirmed ICD of 55 seconds. The rest are close enough that using different stat weights can explain the differences.

#33 The Docster

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 03:09 AM

Yeah I don't buy that the H MSV trink is worse than the Brewfest, H EoE, and dungeon trinkets. As Pullo mentioned, I have noticed the ICD on some trinkets not following the traditional system.

Also are you using the wowhead tooltip or in game because there is a significant difference.
Lei Shin (wowhead)
1218 haste
2539 strength

Lei Shin (ingame)
1218 haste
3653 strength

I am unsure which is the correct value.

#34 Titus Pullo

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:36 PM

I've been using 2539 strength for Lei Shin's. I hadn't seen the 3653 number before for it but if it does turn out to be correct it will push all versions of Lei Shin's to the top of the list. While this is possible (see Eye of Unmaking), it seems unlikely for all three versions of the trinket to be BiS for the first tier of raiding.

#35 Jessamy

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:17 PM

This is a 10000 iteration simulation. If you run the same profile with 100 iterations, trinkets close in value may change places. In particular, the first 3 trinkets are effectively tied for "best;" if you have the Darkmoon Tiger trinket you don't need both heroic drops.

Even using a simulated model like this rather than averaging proc values and estimating uptimes, you still may find results in game vary from the theory. In this case there is a built in inaccuracy of necessity -- the profiles compared here only have one trinket each. Your current trinkets will affect the dps value of any potential upgrades you're considering. 17C2 is an unwieldy amount of gear sets compared to 17 though.* Not only do I not want to waste personal time and processor time setting up and running a simulation that large, the results would be hard to interpret.

Also note that, as above, my ranking is for a DW Frost DK, with race set to Troll and professions set to scribe and chemist (my own character's race and professions). If you want to make similar comparisons with other specs, races, or professions, I included the profile I used for you to make changes to. Or you can even use a similar technique and compare specs, races, and professions to each other!

* Some combinations are impossible due to unique-equipped items with the same name. But still.

Spoiler

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#36 djxak

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:32 PM

You need to add "use" action to trinkets with manual use.
For example, Lessons ot the Darkmaster evaluated so low because simc only use its expertise but not strength.

#37 Jessamy

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:30 PM

Good catch. Here's an updated ranking with the "use" effects added to the action list for Jade Charioteer's Figurine, Lessons of the Darkmaster, Iron Belly Wok, and Daelo's Final Words.
Spoiler
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#38 Magdalena

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:42 AM

Something to note from the Elegon encounter: During the Energy Charge phase, Elegon gains a stacking damage taken increased debuff for each wave of charges that is destroyed. Using Pestilence to spread diseases from him will spread them at the same potency at which they are ticking on him- in other words, for the increased 50% damage they should already be dealing plus the extra amount from however many stacks he has.

In addition, glyph of Pestilence will increase the range of Pestilence just enough that no matter which side a DK is on, their diseases are guaranteed to hit all 6 charges if cast in time.
I'm posting this in the Frost thread because it's currently very much worth the tradeoff for losing a Howling Blast or Obliterate- the damage is just that strong.

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#39 Littlepriezt

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 04:25 PM

I'm looking for a clarification regarding the priority for 2H when using Runic Corruption.

When having one rune of each type up, I think, you should only OB if you have KM.
It should look like this:

1: Soul Reaper
2: Diseases
3: Obliterate with Killing Machine
4: Frost Strike when RP capped
5: Rime
6: If there is not one type of rune compeletly off CD, then Frost Strike
7: else [there is at least one rune type completely off CD] Obliterate

It is possible that the OP actually says this, but it's at least somewhat hard to extract from it.

Also, on a side note, it might be useful to watch a swing timer so you don't accidently FS away any KM when sitting at step 6.

#40 CausalXXLinkXx

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 06:13 AM

Death Siphon base damage has been increased by 50%, but it now scales less efficiently with attack power. This should result in an increase in damage for Frost and Unholy Death Knights, and a minor reduction in damage for Blood Death Knights benefitting from Vengeance.

With this latest change, would this mean that death runes should be spent on Death Siphons instead of Howling blast for single target as DW Mastery Frost?

I did some target dummy testing since I'm not the best with simcraft, and these are the results I got: (Note, when simcraft is upgraded it would of course be the better source of data)

Howling blast: 227 times used min: 25445 Avg: 26840 Max: 32286

Death Siphon: 227 times used min: 21775 Avg: 22540 Max: 23242

So it seems that death siphon still isn't better even with the buff :>




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