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Frost DPS 5.0.4 - The Cold Hand of Death


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#41 neomasterc

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:03 PM

sorry. delete this please.

#42 neomasterc

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:09 PM

I'm looking for a clarification regarding the priority for 2H when using Runic Corruption.

When having one rune of each type up, I think, you should only OB if you have KM.
It should look like this:

1: Soul Reaper
2: Diseases
3: Obliterate with Killing Machine
4: Frost Strike when RP capped
5: Rime
6: If there is not one type of rune compeletly off CD, then Frost Strike
7: else [there is at least one rune type completely off CD] Obliterate

It is possible that the OP actually says this, but it's at least somewhat hard to extract from it.

Also, on a side note, it might be useful to watch a swing timer so you don't accidently FS away any KM when sitting at step 6.


Basically, you should not OB unless you have KM or you have to (runes are about to get capped). Also, instead of watching the swing timer, it is helpful not to spam FS, but leave time between each FS in case a KM procs.

#43 Thepiegod

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:19 AM

Basically, you should not OB unless you have KM or you have to (runes are about to get capped). Also, instead of watching the swing timer, it is helpful not to spam FS, but leave time between each FS in case a KM procs.


This would only be to case with Runic Corruption as without having both sets of runes on CD neither Blood Tap nor Runic Empowerment can actually function as one set will be regening and the other will be full.

#44 Illundai

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:16 PM

I've noticed my Engineering glove enchant puts my use trinket (Lesson of the Dark Master) on cooldown now for the duration of the buff and vice versa. Pretty sure this wasn't the case a few days ago. Did they fuck this up while fixing the dodge trinkets going on cooldown when using the dodge glove enchant? :/

#45 Sanctimony

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 03:29 PM

This was the case at least a week ago, and likely for this entire expansion. I ended up swapping that trinket for a proc one as a result.

I've noticed my Engineering glove enchant puts my use trinket (Lesson of the Dark Master) on cooldown now for the duration of the buff and vice versa. Pretty sure this wasn't the case a few days ago. Did they fuck this up while fixing the dodge trinkets going on cooldown when using the dodge glove enchant? :/



#46 Milou

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:53 PM

I've noticed my Engineering glove enchant puts my use trinket (Lesson of the Dark Master) on cooldown now for the duration of the buff and vice versa. Pretty sure this wasn't the case a few days ago. Did they fuck this up while fixing the dodge trinkets going on cooldown when using the dodge glove enchant? :/


Engineering glove enchants have put on use trinkets on a cooldown for the duration of the glove's buff since WotLK, as far as I know this has never changed in Cataclysm or Mists.

#47 Kablanka

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:59 PM

Has anyone went back and updated the Weights stats for 2H Frost DPS? I've done some testing of my own and playing with the weight stats but I feel I'm not going the right direction. Expertise keeps coming out ahead of Hit.

#48 7alisman

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:46 PM

The OP lists the 2H stat weights as follows:

Strength > Yellow Hit to Cap = Expertise to Cap > Haste > Crit > Mastery

Even if your specific gearing puts expertise slightly higher then hit, nothing changes in your reforge priority. Not capping hit/expertise really isn't a option, so whether expertise or hit comes out ahead means nothing.

I would be interested to see if your value for Haste/Crit/Mastery changes, then we would have a topic of conversation. Otherwise, the stat weights will remain as they are in the OP.

#49 Haakkon

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:00 PM

After playing DW Frost with Blood Tap (as per Magdalena's suggetion in Acherus) I did some playing around on simcraft. I made a priority that was more fitting to how DW plays with Blood Tap.

Starting from the BiS T14H profile on version 5.0.5-2 I was able to get it to sim at 117.6k which is higher than the BiS profile. When I looked at the differences of the results what it boiled down to was a larger portion of Obliterates vs Plague Strike, and less wasted runic power along with fewer wasted rune regen (though that could be because I left out the default of using ERW when the fight is near over).

I'm sure there's other improvements that can be made to this especially because I was swapping it over from the default profile instead of building it fresh. But this does lead towards some possible merit to the smoothness of using BT.

Spoiler


#50 Fernajj

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 06:58 PM

I have a question about the stat weights listed in the original post. It has that strength is weighted at 1 and that haste is at .597 for 2h. Does this mean that the default gem for 2h should be since it has 2x the rating than the primary stat gems? This would put it at 214.92 damage versus the 's 160. This would be for 2h only as none of the secondary stats for DW measure up that well.

#51 Haakkon

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 09:58 PM

I have a question about the stat weights listed in the original post. It has that strength is weighted at 1 and that haste is at .597 for 2h. Does this mean that the default gem for 2h should be since it has 2x the rating than the primary stat gems? This would put it at 214.92 damage versus the 's 160. This would be for 2h only as none of the secondary stats for DW measure up that well.


Yes that would indeed be the conclusion with one caveat: remember that values are for BiS gear. If your gear is significantly lower you'd be best calculating stat weights for your specific gear in a sim.

#52 derfred

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 11:54 PM

Yes that would indeed be the conclusion with one caveat: remember that values are for BiS gear. If your gear is significantly lower you'd be best calculating stat weights for your specific gear in a sim.


I have a similair question; when i simmed having strength gems gemmed, simulationcraft valued haste at 0.58 wich means i should gem haste instead of strength.

Allthough after changing all my gems according to theses stat weights i did a new sim, and now it told me that haste was valued at 0.40 wich means strength was again more valuable.

Is this just a matter of finding the golden balance between strength and haste? And can you calculate that "golden balance" somehow?

#53 Jessamy

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 05:02 AM

Instead of running a sim with stat weights, you can run one with plots. Then it will show you a graph with the exact cutoff where the one stat becomes more valuable than the other one. It takes a long time to run though, so start it when you are going to be away from your computer for a while.

#54 Thepiegod

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 05:26 AM

Instead of running a sim with stat weights, you can run one with plots. Then it will show you a graph with the exact cutoff where the one stat becomes more valuable than the other one. It takes a long time to run though, so start it when you are going to be away from your computer for a while.


That and make sure your processor has a really good cooling system and airflow. Running plots really gets it cooking.

#55 Uspoonybard

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 08:00 PM

Just a note soul reaper is currently causing impervious shield on H spirit kings to explode.

Edit: This has been fixed.

#56 Mendenbarr

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 11:40 PM

Also worth noting that glyph of dark succor is amazing on gara'jal, should you join the downstairs crew. 80k DS heals for every add killed, combined with death pact and a health stone, and you don't even need a healer to come back up.



Edit: Not needing a healer is not the same as not having a healer. In a perfect world, you will always time healers and dps going down perfectly, but unfortunately rng sometimes decides to place voodoo doll on healer going down half a second before the totem is killed. Sometimes, the healer going down mismanages their mana, and doesn't have enough to heal you. Stuff happens.

Dark succor makes the death strikes free, and we all have enough GCDs to spare, especially downstairs, that's it's a dps gain, healing potential aside. Most definitely worth a glyph slot, what else would you use on gara'jal?

#57 DisRuptive1

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 09:42 PM

Also worth noting that glyph of dark succor is amazing on gara'jal, should you join the downstairs crew. 80k DS heals for every add killed, combined with death pact and a health stone, and you don't even need a healer to come back up.


If you can afford to not have a healer go in, then you can afford to run with 2 healers instead of 3. Not having a healer go in is a waste of mana regen for the benefit of doing 50% more DPS inside. Using Death Strike instead of Howling Blast or Obliterate is a DPS loss and the other players that go in with you without a healer might end up spending so much time regenerating their health on their own that the total damage your group outputs isn't ultimately worth it.

As a melee dps, you want to take a healer with you since they'll heal you faster than you would on your own. You don't want to spend all your time in the spirit realm running from mob to mob. Just get in there, drop a Death and Decay at a far away mob, kill any mobs close to you, then get out and get back on the boss.

#58 Sanctimony

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:23 AM

One trick for Stone Guard: the global petrification effect counts as a snare, constantly proccing the 2-piece pvp set bonus (eg .) This works in both normal and heroic, and produces a lot of runic power (listed as runic return.)

#59 Baphomette

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:30 AM

[...] Blood Tap (as per Magdalena's suggetion in Acherus) [...] I'm sure there's other improvements that can be made to this especially because I was swapping it over from the default profile instead of building it fresh. But this does lead towards some possible merit to the smoothness of using BT.

Wouldn't mind hearing more about this. I switched to BT at 90 for PVP purposes and found a lot to like about it in PVE as well -- obviously the guaranteed rune every 2.5 FSs cutting down on the feast-or-famine, but also little things like not needing a fully depleted rune before using FS, getting Death runes out of Unholies for AoE -- so while I'm not advocating everyone immediately go BT, it's absolutely worth a try for the QoL if you dislike RE.

#60 SonanceFalc

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 07:55 PM

Has anyone done the math on exactly how long you should wait if KM procs and OB is on cooldown for 2H spec? OB hits so hard, I find myself waiting 4-6 seconds for OB to come off cooldown, but I'm thinking this may be a DPS loss. I feel like I'm not supposed to wait and just use KM on frost strike that hits for half the damage. Am I right in waiting?




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