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General DK Proc Rate and Mechanic Testing discussion


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#1 Jessamy

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 12:11 PM

While Rune Regen talents can certainly be said to be a choice at Level 90, the Tier 13 four set bonus makes for a clear winner at the time of this writing. Runic Corruption yield the highest uptime (due to increased proc chance) for the four set, and should thus be defaulted to by pretty much all DPS DK specs. Blood Tap has its value further diminished by not interacting with the four set in any way, as well as our toolkit at 85 lacking Soul Reaper (the uptime of which is where Blood Tap truly shines).

This seems reasonable, but it's not quite that straightforward, especially for Frost. You gain buff uptime, but it's not a direct 40/25 times as much; sometimes you get a proc when you already have the buff. And RE has other benefits. Not only does it give you slightly more runes, but it can give you better runes. So you're probably right, but I'd like to be sure.

I wanted to put your theory to the test by running some sims to make some pretty graphs. Unfortunately the t13 4 piece set bonus seems to be hard coded in simulationcraft. If you're frost and have RC, the sim knows that's impossible (since the talent wasn't available before 5.0), and while you do get the correct rune regeneration, you won't get any set bonus uptime. It was quick and easy to verify in game at a training dummy that this is a bug in the sim, the set bonus will definitely proc as frost spec with the runic corruption talent.

However, before I request a new build with this fixed, I think further dummy tests are in order. The original intent of the set bonus was for unholy to get a 40% proc chance, and frost to get a 25% proc chance, to compensate for the different runic power costs of death coil and frost strike. So does the set bonus work as written, with a proc chance that varies based on your selected rune regen talent? Or does it work as intended, with a proc chance that varies based on your spec?

#2 Althor

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 01:40 PM

Thankyou. This has been fixed in the latest SVN revision. I'll be pushing a release in a few hours and it will make it into that as well. If you do notice a bug, don't hesitate to let us know.

#3 Magdalena

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 06:16 PM

Jessamy, the easiest way I've found to test out whether the set bonus is tied to spec or rune regen talent was to simply spec into Blood Tap. As suspected, the set bonus does not interact with it in any way. It will not proc by it, regardless of whatever spec I tested. Thus, it makes sense for it to obey the same rules for proc chances whether Runic Corruption or Runic Empowerment are specced.
Furthermore, I've also noticed a higher uptime of the set bonus as Blood (I often wear all DPS gear when soloing)- when switching between Runic Empowerment and Runic Corruption as talents.

In theory, you're absolutely correct that even with Runic Empowerment, a few lucky procs could ensure relatively comparable uptime to that of Runic Corruption's, especially now that one can put out more Frost Strikes to Death Coils (ratio wise), given the reduced cost of Frost Strike.

However, I question whether the slightly superior rune regen granted by Runic Empowerment for Frost is enough to outweigh the guarantee of higher uptime for the bonus, especially for DW Frost that relies upon Mastery as its premium stat.

#4 Jessamy

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 07:25 PM

Target dummy test update:

26 / 100 runic corruption procs procced the set bonus in frost spec
49 / 100 runic corruption procs procced the set bonus in unholy spec

Very small sample size, but enough difference so, using hand-wavy terminology, I'm pretty sure the proc chance is tied to spec rather than talent choice, and you shouldn't choose your rune regen talent based on the set bonus. Maybe I'll do the whole null hypothesis thing later.

In theory, you're absolutely correct that even with Runic Empowerment, a few lucky procs could ensure relatively comparable uptime to that of Runic Corruption's, especially now that one can put out more Frost Strikes to Death Coils (ratio wise), given the reduced cost of Frost Strike.

However, I question whether the slightly superior rune regen granted by Runic Empowerment for Frost is enough to outweigh the guarantee of higher uptime for the bonus, especially for DW Frost that relies upon Mastery as its premium stat.

Frost Strike already had a lower runic power cost than Death Coil. I conjecture that's why RC (4.3 unholy) and RE (4.3 frost) had different set bonus proc chances. It was normalized to runic power spent, not runes regenerated.

And getting a bit off topic, but RE is the DW frost choice not just because it's slightly more runes regenerated, but because those runes are death and frost, and can be spent on HB instead of OB.

#5 Haakkon

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 06:27 AM

I just did some dummy testing with Proculas running in Frost Spec with Runic Corruption:

100 Runic Corruption Procs
57 Runic Mastery Procs

RNG got a little lucky towards the end when the ratio crept up, but for the most part it seems like it was just over 40% (I think when I hit 50 Corruption Procs I was at 41 Mastery Procs)

Again small sample size, but this leads towards the conclusion that talent choice affects proc rate.

#6 Magdalena

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 01:16 AM

There is a conversation about this in the unholy thread. My dummy test is a very small sample size, if you want to contribute more data please do.


Euliat of Gilneas-US conducted some further testing on the matter. He did so as Runic Corruption specced Frost.

Here is his first log, containing around 500 Frost Strikes: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Runic Corruption procs in this log are somewhat low, but the math to find out how many set bous procs occurred, assuming you believed that Runic Corruption increased the proc chance, would be: (289+202)*.45*.40 = 88.38
This number is right about what he was able to achieve.

This second log contains staggered Frost Strikes: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

The expected number of set bonus procs was 42.66; he ended up getting 46. This is somewhat explained by the higher Runic Corruption uptime, which was at 49%. It's not so high though, to convince him that Runic Corruption's proc chance is any different compared to if he had been playing another spec such as Unholy.

#7 Magdalena

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 05:24 AM

This thread will serve as a collective "Proc rate and Mechanics testing" discussion for Death Knights.

Conjecture in this thread is not limited to any one spec or role for Death Knights. At the same time, it should not be confused with the "Simple Q&A" thread either: It is expected that participants are familiar with basic DK mechanics and be willing to back up claims with mathematical proof, logs, sims and other evidence where appropriate.

Why should such a thread exist?
Put simply:

  • The new talent system brings a level of customisation that is independent of spec. Since all talents are now fully shared among the class, it can help to compare their effects on each spec.
  • Such side by side comparisons can also be useful in detemining the interaction between spec mechanics versus talent mechanics.
  • Particular mechanics, items or abilities can affect more than one spec. Thus, as with the talent system, comparisons can be useful in determining the way a proc works (the Death Knight Tier 13 four piece bonus is a good example of this).
  • A thread dedicated to discussing the more complex math behind gear/talents means that the dedicated threads can also produce more spec-centric discussion and hopefully lead to higher quality theorycraft across the board.


#8 Magdalena

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 01:12 AM

Target dummy test update:

26 / 100 runic corruption procs procced the set bonus in frost spec
49 / 100 runic corruption procs procced the set bonus in unholy spec

Very small sample size, but enough difference so, using hand-wavy terminology, I'm pretty sure the proc chance is tied to spec rather than talent choice, and you shouldn't choose your rune regen talent based on the set bonus. Maybe I'll do the whole null hypothesis thing later.Frost Strike already had a lower runic power cost than Death Coil. I conjecture that's why RC (4.3 unholy) and RE (4.3 frost) had different set bonus proc chances. It was normalized to runic power spent, not runes regenerated.

And getting a bit off topic since this is the unholy thread, but RE is the DW frost choice not just because it's slightly more runes regenerated, but because those runes are death and frost, and can be spent on HB instead of OB.


I will be sure to conduct further testing. If it turns out I'm wrong, I'll be more than happy that since I dislike the idea of RC being more attractive due to a gear choice.

I would argue that the cost difference between Frost Strike and Death Coil in 4.3 was not as significant as it is now. Cataclysm's Frost Strike cost 32 RP when glyphed, while Death Coil for Unholy would cost 34 RP.

I'm also aware of what you've mentioned concerning runes for DW Frost (hence RE being slightly superior in terms of pure rune return for them), but a discussion on that versus the four set is one we can have in Pullo's thread.

#9 Haakkon

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:33 PM

I figured I'd just add this here for concrete reference:

  • Killing Machine is 6 PPM on white melee, no ICD
  • Sudden Doom is 3 PPM on white melee, no ICD
From this post:
Beta Class Balance Analysis Pt. II - Forums - World of Warcraft




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