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Warning for ThrackDK: 2. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible.

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#1 Jessamy


    Struck by Diax's Rake

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 11:18 AM

Post: Blood Tanking - Actively Mitigating since before it was cool
User: ThrackDK
Infraction: 2. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible.
Points: 0

Administrative Note:

Message to User:

Please don't quote a very long post in its entirety like that. It makes your post longer than it needs to be. You can snip out all of a quote except for the first sentence, and it will still be clear who and what you're responding to.

Original Post:

Otou and Reniat already covered the advantages of RC well so I'll just address these two points:

1) There are actual diminishing returns to Death Strikes. For optimal healing and shielding we need to take quite a bit of damage in the Death Strike healing window first. If you shorten that window by Death Striking too early, you waste some of Death Strike's potential which you wouldn't have if you had just waited longer (your rather high overheal and low average Death Strike heal in the log you linked earlier would confirm this).
Using your examples of 11 Death Strikes per minute, that would mean you would Death Strike every 5.45 seconds on average and by doing so you will most likely get quite a few minimum heal Death Strikes out of it because you aren't even giving the boss a chance to break through your Blood Shield by much in most cases before you already do the next Death Strike.
So in the end, you either have to waste resources by sitting on Runes to not get minimum heals - which allows RC to catch up - or you Death Strike anyway and get a suboptimal Blood Shield out of it - which is not very effective either.
This is why saying RE gives "66.9%" more Death Strikes than RC is misleading. Not all Death Strikes are equal because there are simply diminishing returns on the amount of Death Strikes you can do per minute (it's great for DPS, though).

2) Harks back into this. You are asking me to do the impossible. How exactly would I figure out the accurate mathematical disparity in survivability between RC and BT/RE? Which talent is better depends on the fight and your playstyle, and as we told you before, more Death Strikes per minute is not the same more survival. Just because a DK with RE does 66.9% more Death Strikes than someone with RC does not mean he is 66.9% more survivable. In some cases, he might actually be less survivable because he uses minimum Death Strikes at full or close to full health which leaves him open until the next Death Strike is ready whereas someone with RC will be able to sit on a fully refreshed Rune set while the other set is still regenerating during a time where you don't need to Death Strike just yet (remember that you cannot get such a high Death Strike per minute number for RE without gaming it which means you cannot sit on the Runes for very long and that in return means a higher chance of minimum Death Strike heals).
The only metric we can adequately put into numbers is how much more Death Strikes one talent could offer - but I am not even going to put a number on this either. Why? Because if I put a number such as the 66.9% figure above, chances are people will not understand what that truly means. They might, like so many others, misunderstand it as directly translating into the same amount of survival gain and just blindly spec RE over the alternatives because "hey, 66.9% is a lot!" - which is simply not true. No, all they need to know is that RE gives the most Death Strikes per minutes than the alternatives and that is already clear in the guide. And hopefully by the time they are done reading, they will also understand that Death Strikes per minute is a faulty way to gauge tank effectiveness/survival on it's own. This way they will give the other two talents a chance as well without outright dismissing it for giving less Death Strikes.

What I will do, however, is link to the discussion here since it will help people understand the advantages and disadvantages of the respective Tier 5 talents even more (I just hope I won't regret this if/when the only thing people take out from this is "Hey, RE gives me more Death Strikes, this is the best talent for everything!" <_<).
I have also added a Runic Corruption bit to the Advanced section which builds on what Otou said above.

SteffoRex, your kind words are very much appreciated. :kirby:

Using the log of a fight that I outgear by such a huge margine coupled with the fact that the 35% nerf is live as a metric to my overhealing on DS is not a very good point to make. I quite sure that with a 390ish IL and no nerf in place my DS overheal would have been much better wouldnt you say?

The point of the log was to show you how in even a short fight you get enough runestrikes to make a difference in DSs and that was it.

I think people are getting confused with tanking a 35% nerfed DS with 407 ILs where they have the luxury of not really taking that much damage in the first place. In true prenerf hardmode progression I would love to see how often DKS are just sitting on a DS and waiting to use resources because they are taking no damage. I know that the physical damage of all of the first 6(excluding Yorsahj with is almost exclusively magic damage) was astronomically high prenerf.

Prenerf even CTC tanks were taking big spikes in prenerf DS if they ran into a bad string of only 33% blocks and in that kind of envioirment I just dont see how your going to be able to sit on resources as much as your thinking you can. In that enviornement im sure your going to get a very high return on just about every DS you throw out there and having more of them will only serve to make you more survivable.

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