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Warning for Ninahagen: 2. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible.


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#1 Rosin

Rosin

    Priests are great!

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:01 PM

Post: MoP beta discussion
User: Ninahagen
Infraction: 2. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible.
Points: 0

Administrative Note:

Message to User:[quote]Please do not break down your quoted material into a dozen tiny blocks, and a quote block consisting only of an ellipsis is not acceptable.[/quote]
Original Post: [quote][quote name='Havoc12']How is the amount of mana regenerated subjective.
(...)
How is spell usage subjective. Its right there in the logs.
(...)[/quote]

What is subjective and inaccurate is the derivation from mana regeneration to spell usage. It's the function(mana regeneration) = spell usage. It's the link between the two. You can calculate precisely mana regeneration. You can observe spell usage in the log (even though it may change easily from one fight to another). But you can't say "since I have that much mana, my gameplay will be precisely like that". You talk later about mana at the end equal to zero, and that's nice and all to talk about it even though I don't really care in my formula, it's relevant in your formulation though (but you don't spot it) : mana regeneration does not equate precisely gameplay and spell usage, because you end with mana in the end (because random fight mechanics prevent you from casting here and there, because we always have a little bit too much regen, et cetera).

[quote]My accuracy is as high or low as I want it.[/quote]

My accuracy cannot be as high as I want it. Neither can your.


[quote]The last bit is probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Please explain how an active talent is better than a passive talent, which gives you the same benefit. Even damage wise, mindbender is much better than solace.[/quote]

Any talent, active or not, giving more mana than another, active or not, is better mana-wise. You explicitly said that "if" the active talent does not really allow you to cast one more PoH, then it's worse. It cannot be worse mana-wise because it's not, and it cannot be worse healing-wise if you had the opportunity to cast the same spells in both scenarios. So it cannot be worse regarding those two values. Plus, if Solace gives you more mana than Mind Bender, and even though you can't cast a supplemental PoH, you may still cast a less costly spell, and end with more healing than mind bender (since you have more mana, just find one GCD to insert any low spell, and voilÃ*). But that, I guess you already consider it, since you may consider 0.1 PoH advantage healing-wise. (or you round down, dunno why you would?).


[quote]Now lets see exactly what you calculated: One GCD free every 8.5 seconds for mindbender to be equal to solace. Lets put this to the test. According to you this is the only important criterion. So I can pick any situation I want.[/quote]

Seems good.

[quote]Lets think of a fight where you never really have to move at all. E.g. the spirit binder on LFR. You can do the whole fight without moving at all. Let us say that you picked solace and if you don't use your solace you will run oom for 1.5s every 8.5s. It can be said that you have 1.5s every 8.5s free. Let us say that you fill all that time with solace. If the fight lasts 365 seconds. That means you will cast 120 PoHs and 43 solaces. Lets verify 120*2.5+43*1.5 = 364.5s of casting time. So its correct

Now lets replace solace with mindbender. Mindbender takes 2 GCDs per 3 minutes more than shadowfiend and returns 5.3% of max mana more per minute. In 6 minutes it will return 31.8% of max mana extra. So after casting 120 PoHs and all the mindbenders, you will still have 55.5s left. 31.8% of max mana is 7 PoHs, which take 17seconds to cast. So with mindbender you will cast 127 PoHs and will be staying there oom for 40s over the whole fight.[/quote]

I'm sorry but what?
How can you regenerate mana in 1.5 seconds (even with one solace), enough to spam again for 7 seconds?
It does not hold water.

But okay, let's say we casted 43 Solaces and 120 PoH under the (very busy) spam fight, and we end OOM.
This means that all the mana you had during the 365 seconds fight + 30.1% mana (solace) were used to cast 120 PoH.
And you said that with Mind Bender, which gave 31.8% Mana, and the same main-mana-regeneration than the Solace example, we cast 127 PoH.
Sooooo, we cast 7 PoH with what mana exactly? Can we go negative?? What's this?

X + 30.1% = exactly what you need for 120 PoH.
X + 31.8% = exactly what you need for 127 PoH?????

And what about a fight where mana regeneration from Solace and Mind Bender are equal (this varies a bit with fight length). You'd find you can cast 120 PoH for the same mana price than 127?? How can you?


[quote]I am sure you can spot the flaw here. I am just assuming that someone will fill all that time with solace when in fact they won't and as such their free time is not really 1.5s every 8.5, but less because they will actually cast more spells when they have solace.[/quote]

That was not exactly the only flaw ...



[quote]What you have calculated is the number of solaces that you need to cast so that you can chain cast and end up with exactly zero mana at the end of the encounter. Alternatively it is the number of GCDs that must be free due to the player being oom when using mindbender. [/quote]

Nope. I don't calculate what anyone need to be OOM at the end. That's not what I do, sorry.
I don't even use mana regeneration at all in my formula. How can you say I aim to be OOM at the end without even knowing what's the mana regeneration I have?? How can you think that's what I do??

[quote]That is a value that is completely impossible to calculate accurately from the logs, unless you look at what spells you are casting. [/quote]

Maybe, I don't know, I never tried.

[quote](...)[/quote]

same thing.


[quote]My value is as accurate as my estimates, which I can make as accurate as I want by looking at the logs.[/quote]

Solace gains are directly proportionnal to Solace casts. If you cannot evaluate precisely how much you could cast, and if you said yourself you can't tell that from the logs, you simply cannot be precise. Please that's the third time or fourth time I said that, and you never adressed it. I might be wrong, but just answer : how do you expect to be as much precise as you want when you don't even know 100% how much Solace you could cast, and when Solace mana returns are directly proportionnals to that.
This is just impossible.


[quote]I may not be able to calculate free time exactly, but having done all the fights in the current tier, I can tell you that with a couple of exceptions most fights have very little down time. For those fights with high downtime, mana is generally not much of a problem. Fights where you spend more than 10% of your time DPSing, because off-dps is needed you should always use mindbender. DPSing due to all healing priests having evangelism has a low mana drain, so its unlikely you will have mana problems and mindbender is way more dps than solace.[/quote]

That's a good argument.
I did not try any fight. If we do not lack mana as much as we did early cataclysm, and if we have no down time and are always spamming, then I don't really care about formulas : Solace is crap because we don't need regen, and we don't have much free time (spending less than 10% DPS or whatever means you can't even cast one solace each 15 seconds -without haste-).
Notice you just evaluated real available free time : less than 10%.

[quote]Your method has zero predictive power. Its exactly equivalent (no better or worse) to playing with the two talents and comparing your healing output at the end. You might as well not bother remembering it.[/quote]

It has excellent predictive power. And nearly no computation at all. No spreadsheet required. Dude's playing Pandaria. Dude's asking to himself what is the better talent. Dude's coming here and is told that the talent is effective only in fight where he can spend x% of his time Solacin'. Dude knows if that's the case or not. Dude choose best talent. One day dude is fighting in a particular fight with very few or very much free time, and remembers to switch on or off Solace.

[quote]All attempts at comparing the two talents mathematically must take into account spell selection and the time required to use the mana given back by solace. Otherwise they are completely invalid and in fact its simpler to just play with them and make an intuitive call. Trying to use the value you calculated will give the wrong result unless fortuitously you end the fight with zero mana.[/quote]

All attempts must correctly emulate Solace # casts in any given fight to deduce Solace mana returns. You can't escape that.[/quote]




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