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[Resto] Mists of Pandaria 5.4


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#41 apostolis

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:13 AM

Some quick questions/thoughts for you all :

1) Nature's Vigil is affecting tranquility ? Is the 6% passive intellect fron heart of wild better in short fights and lose its value in longer fights due to nature's vigil being a 3min cd.
1.a) Assuming we take sotf as talent which talent compliment it better? heart of wild or nature's vigil? Since with sotf we lose our 3min cd burst so nature's vigil is somehow cover for it .

2) I dont think we accurately measure how good sotf talent is vs tree since healing is dynamic therefore we dont cast swiftmend on cd in addition since some classes receive bonus in incoming healing (or this is not true anymore? e.g. rogue,shaman etc.) we cant predict which classes will receive the wild growth (assuming 25man raiding for this sentence).

3) Why everyone consider mastery to be bad in mist? Its still a direct buff to our heal even if we get mastery buff in raids)
3.a) Would we care for crit more ? How is it affecting our mana regen and healing in relation to clearcasting and living seed ? Is this comment in the guide accurate " All healing effects are able to crit" ?

4) Should we use more intellect or mana potions?

5) Do you think it worths keeping 2 heroic gear pieces for mana regen issues? Or does't worth it at all due to increase stats from 463 (at least) items?

Thank you.

#42 Kjeldorian

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:28 AM

@Price of Progress "Hotfix"

Price of Progress change from the 15 sec ICD to a 45 sec ICD as of 10.03.12 meaning it has a ~500 mp5 still superior to the other dungeon trinkets.

#43 Kjeldorian

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:54 AM

@ PvP "Hotfix"

The question here will be if the ilvl 458 PvP gear with sockets compares to the many ilvl 464 Heroic Dungeon pieces, many of which lack sockets. Personally, the dramatic reduction in an external CD on tanks during progression can have a great value.

@ Questions
1. Tranquility is affected by Nature's Vigil, HoTW is good for a sustained healing increase where if you have a predictable burst healing requirement Nature's Vigil will shine.
1. a. With SoTF, either talent works just follows the comments above with sustained healing vs burst healing.

2. I don't really consider ToL to be a burst healing mechanic, at most a mana CD / tank CD with the sustained regrowths. SoTF certainly has benefit in some fights where there are burst mechanics for damage on the raid.

3. You will have to run the numbers, my approximations have mastery coming out ahead. Mainly due to the reliability versus the overheal that crit tends to do.

4. With limitation of one potion per fight, you are better off with more spirit and to get more int / mastery as you get more comfortable with your mana availability.

5. I don't think it's worth keeping 410 DS gear because of the stat elevation made in MoP outweighs the mana especially since you can't use the MoP gems in the 410 gear so you lose a lot of potential gemming.

#44 Regallion

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:40 AM

A few questions for you guys~
1. haste breakpoints. As far as i can see those are unchanged from cataclysm( i can still see that 2004 break we all know and love) yet at level 90... arent't they obsolete?
2. Why do people hate on displacer beast so much? it's a blink for purposes of getting out of stuff quickly and it's vanish for saving on repair costs. ofc multiplicative 15% are cooler but still... why do you love wild charge?
3. Do resto druids actually...use nourish? i haven't used it since i was level 15 and never looked back. With the changes to mastery timing swiftmend is enough to maintain it so is there any actual purpose to using it?
Oh and HotW lasts 45 seconds not 30 what's up with that description.

#45 Venomous

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:40 PM

@Price of Progress "Hotfix"

Price of Progress change from the 15 sec ICD to a 45 sec ICD as of 10.03.12 meaning it has a ~500 mp5 still superior to the other dungeon trinkets.


1. Be interesting to see an updated Trinket 'list' - guess waiting on the mighty theorycrafters to come back with updated Heroic JP (which is crap) but what will be more interesting is the PvP 458 vs some of our pieces.

With the drop of some VP gear to Honoured, we have some decisions to make - should we get Neck/Ring first etc

2. I'll still be interested in seeing what people think of current professions - BS being a given, but for a secondary, what do we think of Tailoring?

#46 Hamlet

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:16 PM

The 2004 is a coincidence; the breakpoints are all different now, look more closely.

On the more interesting stuff--I can see doing a little more with Displacer Beat. It has a longer cooldown than WC, which is a big downside. I guess it has no other real downside, since shifting to Cat is automatically undone when you cast your next spell anyway. Repair costs don't really matter, but does the Vanish effect drop aggro? That could be significant. Also perhaps, in practice, it's a little quicker to react since you don't need to target someone.

For Nourish, I'm going to wait until I get more time in on TreeCalcs--in Cata it was definitely true that using Nourish was very close to doing nothing. With longer Lifebloom and Harmony times, you no longer need to use it as much to support those mechanics, so we'll have to see how the heal/mana numbers work out.

Professions--
BS gives the option of secondary stats, so even putting aside the slight gain in total strength, the flexibility is nice as always (especially given the importance of our haste caps). The same is not true for JC since its secondary stat gems are weaker.

Tailoring is no longer as impressive at it once was. For Moonkin it's fine, but no longer beats the others in terms of average Int. But for Resto, I don't see much reason to take a random proc over a static bonus. Darkglow does instead give the option to get Spirit at an okay (but not great) ratio, if you're really trying to power Spirit (but I think people are overemphasizing this too much).

I'd say if you're trying to be super min/maxy, can't deny Blacksmithing, but other than that the choice is pretty free.

#47 Venomous

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:21 PM

The 2004 is a coincidence; the breakpoints are all different now, look more closely.

On the more interesting stuff--I can see doing a little more with Displacer Beat. It has a longer cooldown than WC, which is a big downside. I guess it has no other real downside, since shifting to Cat is automatically undone when you cast your next spell anyway. Repair costs don't really matter, but does the Vanish effect drop aggro? That could be significant. Also perhaps, in practice, it's a little quicker to react since you don't need to target someone.

For Nourish, I'm going to wait until I get more time in on TreeCalcs--in Cata it was definitely true that using Nourish was very close to doing nothing. With longer Lifebloom and Harmony times, you no longer need to use it as much to support those mechanics, so we'll have to see how the heal/mana numbers work out.

Professions--
BS gives the option of secondary stats, so even putting aside the slight gain in total strength, the flexibility is nice as always (especially given the importance of our haste caps). The same is not true for JC since its secondary stat gems are weaker.

Tailoring is no longer as impressive at it once was. For Moonkin it's fine, but no longer beats the others in terms of average Int. But for Resto, I don't see much reason to take a random proc over a static bonus. Darkglow does instead give the option to get Spirit at an okay (but not great) ratio, if you're really trying to power Spirit (but I think people are overemphasizing this too much).

I'd say if you're trying to be super min/maxy, can't deny Blacksmithing, but other than that the choice is pretty free.


1. We just started raiding tonight, sitting at around 8000 spirit buffed (275 Spirit Food + Spirit Flask) and in our healing channel everyone is suffering from the same thing - going oom. We got 2/6 (crappy start with Server lag etc) down, and every healing class was suffering from it - so I think Spirit isn't overemphasized as of yet - specially in the early days of 458 Rares.

I agree with you on Blacksmithing, and now you've thrown a spanner into the works about Tailoring haha - I'm lost as to what I should level. Alchemy seems nice with the extended Flask buff I guess - LW is useless for Resto (about for the Bracer), Tailoring gave us Pants enchant + the Embroidery. Engi is always good at the start of an xpac, but Helm is quickly replaced, and the Synapse triggering the 10sec lockout for On-Use Trinkets could cause issues as (by the looks of our BiS list - have a On-Use Trinket).

What makes you say Tailoring is all the sh*t hot now for Resto, isn't it the same as it was before?

2. I think with the Klaxxi Neck being dropped, and many people close to Rev with Golden Lotus - our first two purchases should be the Neck + Ring no?

Do any of the PvPs (yet to look at the nerfed 458 gear) - stand out from the crowd as honor is quite easy to get vs VP atm..?

#48 Arentios

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:23 PM

Displacer Beast is not a vanish, it simply blinks you and adds the prowl effect. In PvP that means other players will drop target, but in PvE mobs will not drop aggro and you do not drop combat.

#49 Hamlet

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:29 PM

Ok so with that clarified, Displacer Beast doesn't seem all that exciting.

Spirit: yeah, my experience in Heroics might not be that informative, will see what I think after a few challenges. My logic though is that in hard content you need actual throughput too; I'm not sure that being undergeared favors Spirit as much as people think. I think it's clear to favor it as the best secondary for now, but favoring it over Int (except in the 2:1 gem situation) is probably a bit much. Trading a 2000 Int tailoring proc for a 3000 spirit one may be relevant for some people right now, but that's probably short-lived.

Alchemy once again gives you potions that are both cheap and have a health component in addition to the mana--small gameplay benefit since you can use your mana pot as a healthstone sometime during the fight.

#50 Earen

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:54 PM

I ran about 7700 spirit last night and also had significant mana issues (I did, however, run with int food/flask and may change that up to spirit food and flask tonight as we get deeper into the zone, I haven't decided yet). All healers were in the same boat mana wise for us as well, including a priest running something like 12,000 spirit. So I don't know if I just need to be smarter with spell timing/selection or if I need to boost my regen up some - I suspect it is likely a combination of both.

Of additional note, and perhaps I'm just being overly aggressive/not smart with it, but I swapped back to ToL for Feng as I just did have the ability to push through the end of the fight with SotF mana wise, even with two tides. It worked fine for me on Stone Guard, but with the longer fight and higher damage I found a fair bit of value in ToL. I'm curious if anyone else has similar experience in that regard. I am going to swap back to SotF for the Spiritbinder tonight, as with the mana gain in the spirit realm I don't see it being as big of an issue.
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#51 Payday

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:00 PM

I was running similar spirit in our 10 man, Earen, but I was using spirit flask and food. Mana was very tight, but that was more a problem with our strategies than anything. We brute forced the first boss allowing them to hit us with many full strength overloads. Only after the raid did we find out what everyone else was doing. For Feng, I thought SotF was in it's prime. Not only do you need to use your swiftmend for efflorescence, wild growth followed meaning I gained the bonus from casting what I would have even if I didn't have SotF talented. Unfortunately our un-smart tanks once again didn't figure out fight mechanics and while we could reliably get to phase 3 towards the end of the night, healer mana was always in a bad state because they didn't rotate the boss and we ended up healing through up to 8-9 stacks of debuff at times.

Having done the fights wrong it's hard to see where we're at with mana, but having gone through all of that, I think doing it right, we're actually in a fairly good spot.

#52 Kjeldorian

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:41 PM

I must agree with Hamlet about the 1 Int: 1 Spi ratio, I ran with 8.8k spirit, but felt underpowered regarding my hots and am quite yearning for the time my gear can support the WG breakpoint.

Regarding SoTF, I believe it really shines with the 4 piece bonus during fights with burst such as Feng and Spirit Kings. Spiritbinder will be a preference based on how well your dps control the adds in the spirit realm ranging from no raid damage and only voodoo dolls to a lot of raid damage and voodoo dolls. Luck to your progression!

#53 Earen

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:25 PM

I really wanted to love SotF on Feng as I think there are optimal times in the encounter for it. I just couldn't enter phase 3 without being completely out of mana utilizing it. In looking through the logs for that particular encounter, it seems there is a pretty even mix between using SotF and ToL, and both were fairly competitive, which I suppose is the point of the new talents - but I question how much of that is due to gear limitations at moment, as with gear inflation I think SotF will strip a lot of ToL's usefulness.
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#54 magiama9

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:05 PM

It should be noted that the symbiosis benefit has now changed for tanks. As opposed to giving tanks an extra cooldown, we now give them effects that are now greatly weakened and in some cases useless.

Symbiosis has been changed, and now grants the following abilities:
Protection warriors - Stampeding Shout
Blood death knights - Wild Mushroom: Plague
Protection paladins - Wrath
Brewmaster monks - Bear Hug

Source

#55 Earen

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:27 PM

Updated.
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#56 magiama9

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:11 AM

Another thing that appears to have changed. The Sha of Anger is now dropping which gives us a quest for . Just as a note, my rep with the Shado-Pan is only friendly. I assume this is in relation to the rep requirements for valor necks, cloaks, and rings being dropped to honored.

#57 Kjeldorian

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:33 AM

Note that though the boots are ilvl 476 and are epic, the lack of a gem socket does not make it a superior upgrade, possibly a sidegrade compared to .

Post nerf to the PvP Honor gear, the stat drops were below ~5% so some pieces are certainly decent substitutions in the event gear is not dropping from Heroics and in some cases are the better choice, once again, due to availability of gem sockets.

#58 Payday

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:46 AM

I wouldn't say it's a side grade. For the lack of 160 primary stat or 320 secondary stat (gem slot) plus 60 int, you gain 129 stamina, 166 int, 120 spirit and 85 secondary stat. Looks like quite a large upgrade assuming you can shift the mastery around. My boots before were the heroic ones with mastery before so I had already accounted for the haste elsewhere. Pure upgrade for me.

#59 Lazerdollarz

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:53 AM

The lack of a gem slot on the boots from Sha makes them suboptimal compared to heroic 5-man boots. Running 4pc PvP set is fantastic given that stacking debuffs appear to be the main tank swap mechanic so far. Mana is quite tight on the first 5 normal fights minus Gara'jal, running somewhere around 9k spirit. I'm not sold on using spirit flask/food yet since the itemization trade off isn't 2:1, but heroic modes might change my mind.

A couple tricks I've found: track your trinket and Innervate cooldowns (ICD or otherwise) and try to line up your Potion of Focus use, fight mechanics permitting of course, with a time where everything is on CD. This will net you extra regen ultimately since otherwise you run the risk of losing a proc/use. Second, pre-potting Int and using HotW is a major DPS cooldown and can add a non-negligible amount of damage during pulls where initial incoming damage is low.

#60 Venomous

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:46 AM

Spirit: yeah, my experience in Heroics might not be that informative, will see what I think after a few challenges. My logic though is that in hard content you need actual throughput too; I'm not sure that being undergeared favors Spirit as much as people think. I think it's clear to favor it as the best secondary for now, but favoring it over Int (except in the 2:1 gem situation) is probably a bit much. Trading a 2000 Int tailoring proc for a 3000 spirit one may be relevant for some people right now, but that's probably short-lived.

Alchemy once again gives you potions that are both cheap and have a health component in addition to the mana--small gameplay benefit since you can use your mana pot as a healthstone sometime during the fight.


1. @Hamlet: As I rank you as a Druid guru (haha), I'm just a little confused as to why Tailoring is considered 'bad' (maybe the word bad is too strong) for Resto now - your coming to this conclusion through maths or the simple fact static stat vs. proc will always be better?

2. Am I correct in assuming that outside of a Haste breakpoint - aka once we reach 3043 raid buffed we should reforge additional Haste (gem pure Int/Spirit) into Mastery until we have the gear to carry us to 6652 (or 5730 with SotF)? For example I'm currently sitting at 3517 (3692.85 raid buffed) - I should be able to cut excess Haste off correct? Or am I completely missing this?

If you havern't already seen it fellow Trees - Halmet made a great post here summing up certain things for us at this current stage.

3. @Lazerdollarz: Got all excited until I remember the PvP gear just got nerfed to 458 - I'm in 463 heroic gear now - I'm thinking that the 4pc will be an overall downgrade in lost stats and not worth our time if we already have the heroic gear?




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