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[MoP] Best Possible DPS with Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer (femaledwarf.com)


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#1 Whitefyst

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 09:50 PM

The purpose of this thread is to compare/contrast different combinations of gear/talents/pets/rotations/etc on femaledwarf.com (FD) in order maximize potential DPS. In order to keep the results comparable, it is required to use the fixed settings listed below. I will do my best to keep this original post updated with the current max potential DPS templates discovered for each spec on a somewhat routine basis.

While these results can be used as a template for your character without spending the time/energy into figuring it all out yourself, please understand that this is under an optimal/uniform setting and that these may or may not be the best setups for all situations. Also, I encourage/challenge all of you to try and improve upon these settings and to think outside the box.

Current Goal for Each Spec

The current goal is to maximize DPS for each spec at level 90 in T14 heroic gear using actual gear and abilities available in the game. For each spec, two profiles are provided:
- One that is racial and profession neutral with the Tauren race chosen and two of the professions, Leatherworking and Enchanting, that have the standard 320 agility profession benefit used.
- One that is for the best race and profession combination and represents the overall best possible DPS for the spec.

Caveat

I am sure that most people realize this already, but I want to point out a few items concerning this thread to make sure that everyone reading it has the correct perspective.

This is the maximum theoretical DPS potential that a hunter of each spec can perform in MoP using the simulation performed by FD.

With that statement in mind, please take the information in this post with the following perspective, such that you can try to project the results onto your specific game play situation.

- This is the maximum DPS potentional of each hunter spec in an ideal single target situation involving
-- 0 latency
-- 0 human reaction time
-- Standstill fight with no movement
-- 100% hunter and pet DPS uptime (no target switching, stuns, interruptions, pushback, etc)
-- Optimal use of hunter abilities with not needing to use any utility abilities that can hurt DPS

- This is simulated by FD and is subject to the limitations of the simulation, including:
-- Averaging out a lof abilities over the whole fight
-- Shot priority and rules that may not be 100% optimal in all situations but which apply well generally

This thread is meant to be an intellectual exercise to help us discover the best ways to play each hunter spec but is not necessarily 100% reflective of actual in game play.

Fixed Settings

The following settings below are required for consistency in all specs, but any of the other settings or shot priority may be modified in order to try to maximize DPS.

Tab|Item|Value|Reason
Race/Professions|Race|Tauren|For the race/profession neutral case only for each spec. Any race is allowed for the maximum DPS spec.
Race/Professions|Profession 1|Enchanting|For the race/profession neutral case only for each spec. Any profession is allowed for the maximum DPS spec.
Race/Professions|Profession 2|Leatherworking|For the race/profession neutral case only for each spec. Any profession is allowed for the maximum DPS spec.
Gear|Sha-Touch Gem Socketed|-|Disabled for the neutral cases and enabled for the max DPS case.
Gear|Custom Gear Stats|0|No stat modifications are allowed beyond those from buffing, gearing, gemming, enchanting, and reforging options.
Buffs|Buffs|Yes|All buffs must be set to "Yes", except for Tricks of the Trade. Stormlash Totem and Skull Banner options must be set to "0". Pre-potion must be selected.
Buffs|Debuffs|Yes|All debuffs must be activated
Buffs|Custom Buffs|0|All Custom Buffs must be deactivated.
Settings|Fight Length (in minutes)|7.5
Settings|% of Fight Spent in Kill Shot Range (<20%)|20
Settings|% of Fight Spent in Careful Aim Range (>80%)|20
Settings|Target Level|93
Settings|Latency (in ms)|0|This makes the case independent of player's varying latency levels and is the best DPS case.
Settings|Target Armor|24834
Settings|Use Averaging of Abilities Over Time|Selected
Settings|Don't Emulate Known Bugs|Not Selected


Currently Discovered Best Templates

BM Racial/Profession Neutral

DPS|129362
FD Link|Here
Date|12-29-2012
Notes|Stat priority: Crit > Mastery > Haste - need the crit to proc GftT for more pet focus and attacks with higher WH uptime. Use ET.


BM Maximum DPS

DPS|131605
FD Link|Here
Date|12-29-2012
Notes|Stat priority: Crit > Mastery > Haste - need the crit to proc GftT for more pet focus and attacks with higher WH uptime. Use ET.


MM Racial/Profession Neutral

DPS|163905
FD Link|Here
Date|12-29-2012
Notes|Uses Arcane Shot as the focus dump when AI is above 1.5s cast time. Stat priority is Crit > Haste > Mastery, with making sure to get at least the 18.58% haste from gear needed for a tight rotation with 3 SSs.


MM Maximum DPS

DPS|167016
FD Link|Here
Date|12-29-2012
Notes|Uses Arcane Shot as the focus dump when AI is above 1.5s cast time. Stat priority is Crit > Haste > Mastery, with making sure to get at least the 18.58% haste from gear needed for a tight rotation with 3 SSs.


SV Racial/Profession Neutral

DPS|122041
FD Link|Here
Date|12-29-2012
Notes|Uses Multi-Shot to apply Serpent Sting DoT. Stat priority: Crit > Mastery >> Haste.


SV Maximum DPS

DPS|123526
FD Link|Here
Date|12-29-2012
Notes|Uses Multi-Shot to apply Serpent Sting DoT. Stat priority: Crit > Mastery >> Haste. Pandaren barely above Orc.


How To Suggest a DPS Improvement

To suggest a DPS improvement, please do the following:
- Indicate how much DPS is improved by
- Provide a link to the case in FD
- Detail what you changed in FD from the currently listed case in this thread

I did not spend a lot of time optmizing these specs before posting them, so I am sure that there is a lot of room for improvement for you all in the community to find. Have at it!

#2 Lilbitters

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 07:11 AM

One thing to note: Leatherworking is currently an above average profession (Fur Lining - Agility grants 500 Agi, the comparable enchant, Enchant Bracery - Greater Agility is only 170 Agi, making it a 330 stat gain, as opposed to all other professions only granting 320 stat bonuses. However, FemaleDwarf currently incorrectly displays the default bracer enchant as granting +180 Agi, and should it be fixed, would make LW correctly more advantageous to the alternatives.)

That aside, I'll go ahead and start with some suggestions.

BM Racial/Profession Neutral
DPS: 100426.45 -> 105527.69 (+5101.24)
FD Link: Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer
Date: 9-16-2012
Changes:
-Gear change: Yaungol Slayer's Spaulders (Heroic) -> Waterborne Shoulderguards (Heroic Elite)
-Gear change: Zor'lok's Fizzing Chestguard (Heroic) -> Yaungol Slayer's Tunic (Heroic)
-Massive Reforging: Crit > Mastery > Haste
-Gemming: Adept -> Deadly
-Gemming: Ignore socket bonus on Chest for double Delicate
-Enchanting: Gloves Mastery -> Expertise
-Shot Priority: SrS, BW, aMoC, KC, KS, RF, FF, DB, GT, Ready, Stamp, AS, CoS
-Save Focus For: Not Selected
-Wait Time: 0.3
-Minimum Focus to use Arcane Shot: 60
-Latency (in ms): 0


BM Maximum DPS
DPS: 104531.36 -> 109495.70 (+4964.34)
FD Link: Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer
Date: 9-16-2012
Changes:
-Race: Orc
-Gear change: Yaungol Slayer's Spaulders (Heroic) -> Waterborne Shoulderguards (Heroic Elite)
-Gear change: Zor'lok's Fizzing Chestguard (Heroic) -> Yaungol Slayer's Tunic (Heroic)
-Massive Reforging: Crit > Mastery > Haste
-Gemming: Adept -> Deadly
-Gemming: Ignore socket bonus on Chest for double Delicate
-Gemming: Sha-Touched Gem Socketed
-Enchanting: Gloves Mastery -> Expertise
-Shot Priority: SrS, BW, aMoC, KS, KC, RF, FF, DB, GT, Ready, Stamp, AS, CoS
-Save Focus For: Not Selected
-Wait Time: 0.3
-Minimum Focus to use Arcane Shot: 63
-Latency (in ms): 0


MM Racial/Profession Neutral
DPS: 98003.52 -> 102241.85 (+4238.33)
FD Link: Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer
Date: 9-16-2012
Changes:
-Gear change: Yaungol Slayer's Spaulders (Heroic) -> Waterborne Shoulderguards (Heroic Elite)
-Gear change: Zor'lok's Fizzing Chestguard (Heroic) -> Yaungol Slayer's Tunic (Heroic)
-Massive Reforging: Crit > Haste > Mastery
-Gemming: Ignore socket bonus on Chest for double Delicate
-Enchanting: Gloves Mastery -> Expertise
-Shot Priority: SrS,KS,RF,aMoC,DB,CS,GT,Ready,Stamp,AiS,AS,SS
-Save Focus For: Not Selected
-Wait Time: 0.3
-Wait Shots: Chimera Shot (checked)
-Minimum Focus to use Arcane Shot: 59
-Don't save focus for A Murder of Crows when it's off cooldown: (checked)
-Maximum speed to cast Aimed Shot (suppressing Arcane Shot): 1.3
-Latency (in ms): 0


MM Maximum DPS
DPS: 100749.44 -> 105052.62 (+4303.18)
FD Link: Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer
Date: 9-16-2012
Changes:
-Race: Orc
-Gear change: Yaungol Slayer's Spaulders (Heroic) -> Waterborne Shoulderguards (Heroic Elite)
-Gear change: Zor'lok's Fizzing Chestguard (Heroic) -> Yaungol Slayer's Tunic (Heroic)
-Massive Reforging: Crit > Haste > Mastery
-Gemming: Ignore socket bonus on Chest for double Delicate
-Gemming: Sha-Touched Gem Socketed
-Enchanting: Gloves Mastery -> Expertise
-Shot Priority: SrS,KS,RF,aMoC,DB,CS,GT,Ready,Stamp,AiS,AS,SS
-Save Focus For: Not Selected
-Wait Time: 0.3
-Wait Shots: Chimera Shot (checked)
-Minimum Focus to use Arcane Shot: 59
-Don't save focus for A Murder of Crows when it's off cooldown: (checked)
-Maximum speed to cast Aimed Shot (suppressing Arcane Shot): 1.3
-Latency (in ms): 0


SV Racial/Profession Neutral
DPS: 94579.08 -> 100558.98 (+5979.90)
FD Link: Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer
Date: 9-16-2012
Changes:
-Gear change: Yaungol Slayer's Spaulders (Heroic) -> Waterborne Shoulderguards (Heroic Elite)
-Gear change: Zor'lok's Fizzing Chestguard (Heroic) -> Yaungol Slayer's Tunic (Heroic)
-Massive Reforging: Crit > Mastery > Haste
-Gemming: Adept -> Deadly
-Gemming: Ignore socket bonus on Chest for double Delicate
-Enchanting: Gloves Mastery -> Expertise
-Shot Priority: BA,aMoC,KS,RF,DB,GT,ES,Ready,Stamp,MS,AS,CoS
-Save Focus For: Not Selected
-Wait Time: 0.3
-Wait Shots: Explosive Shot (checked)
-Minimum Focus to use Arcane Shot: 60
-Latency (in ms): 0


SV Maximum DPS
DPS: 97860.18 -> 104014.12 (+6153.94)
FD Link: Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer
Date: 9-16-2012
Changes:
-Race: Pandaren
-Gear change: Yaungol Slayer's Spaulders (Heroic) -> Waterborne Shoulderguards (Heroic Elite)
-Gear change: Zor'lok's Fizzing Chestguard (Heroic) -> Yaungol Slayer's Tunic (Heroic)
-Massive Reforging: Crit > Mastery > Haste
-Gemming: Adept -> Deadly
-Gemming: Ignore socket bonus on Chest for double Delicate
-Gemming: Sha-Touched Gem Socketed
-Enchanting: Gloves Mastery -> Expertise
-Shot Priority: BA,aMoC,KS,RF,DB,GT,ES,Ready,Stamp,MS,AS,CoS
-Save Focus For: Not Selected
-Wait Time: 0.3
-Wait Shots: Explosive Shot (checked)
-Minimum Focus to use Arcane Shot: 60
-Latency (in ms): 0
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#3 Lokrick

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 07:25 AM

Using the export function, I ran those profiles in simc using the current default actions; I'll update this occasionally as better profiles are identified (or action lists are improved).

Name|DPS
Hunter_BM_bis |104,621
Hunter_SV_bis |100,203
Hunter_MM_bis |100,171
Hunter_BM_base |100,121
Hunter_MM_base | 97,034
Hunter_SV_base | 96,442


#4 Whitefyst

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 03:23 PM

One thing to note: Leatherworking is currently an above average profession (Fur Lining - Agility grants 500 Agi, the comparable enchant, Enchant Bracery - Greater Agility is only 170 Agi, making it a 330 stat gain, as opposed to all other professions only granting 320 stat bonuses. However, FemaleDwarf currently incorrectly displays the default bracer enchant as granting +180 Agi, and should it be fixed, would make LW correctly more advantageous to the alternatives.)

That aside, I'll go ahead and start with some suggestions....


Thanks for the suggestions. They really improve things over my quick copies of the FD defaults with spending limited time to maximize things. I did not bother to mess with gear besides some quick reforge options since I did not have much time before I had to go do something else.

They also caught a lot of the settings that I stated to use but didn't since they must have gotten lost somewhere along the way when going back to the initial settings or undoing other settings. Now that I have saved versions (and backups) with the settings correct, they should not be lost again. Losing the 0ms latency setting and the Sha-touched gems made a big difference in the results.

Concerning the LW "benefit", it is my understanding that the base bracer enchant is being increased to 180 agi to eliminate the extra benefit in agi for LW. Regardless, the extra 10 agi, as compared to over 18800 agi total, it really not that big of a deal.

One observation that I made when doing the initial MM settings for this and which is was further clarified with your settings it that Aimed Shot does not scale well relative to the other shots (or has been nerfed since I did the normal gear analysis). It is now beneficial to cast GT and SrS and CS during the CA phase with the GCDs and focus spent on them costing AI casts. It is also no longer beneficial to cast AI outside the CA phase, unless you are stacking multiple haste effects. Even at about a 1.33s AI cast time during RFs, it is not worth using. This is one of the items that will be updated in the MM guide for MoP release. I had already felt that AI needed a small boost to increase our desire to use it under large dynamic haste effects (a small boost would have made it worthwhile during BL), but the current situation is going the wrong way with making AI undesirable even during RF and lower priority during the CA phase. This really takes a lot of the flavor out of MM and makes it so that dynamic haste effects are not nearly as beneficial as they used to be for MM. With only 3.9% haste from gear and the T14 4P, SS is already GCD capped during RF. It is GCD capped with 11.89% haste from gear during BLs. Hence, now the largest benefits for MM during dynamic haste effects are increased autshot frequency and focus regen.

#5 Rivkah

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 04:51 PM

One thing to note: Leatherworking is currently an above average profession (Fur Lining - Agility grants 500 Agi, the comparable enchant, Enchant Bracery - Greater Agility is only 170 Agi, making it a 330 stat gain, as opposed to all other professions only granting 320 stat bonuses. However, FemaleDwarf currently incorrectly displays the default bracer enchant as granting +180 Agi, and should it be fixed, would make LW correctly more advantageous to the alternatives.)


The bracer agil enchant does apply 180 agil last time I looked on beta but the tooltip on the enchant did not get updated. I expect they'll fix the tooltip eventually. It makes sense that it would be 180 since otherwise the LW enchant would be more powerful than other professions.

#6 Lilbitters

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 07:45 PM

The bracer agil enchant does apply 180 agil last time I looked on beta but the tooltip on the enchant did not get updated. I expect they'll fix the tooltip eventually. It makes sense that it would be 180 since otherwise the LW enchant would be more powerful than other professions.


Thanks, you are correct and they have been fixed (I just double checked in-game) even though the tooltips are still outdated. I updated my post for profession perk balancing suggestions as I noticed a few other things were buffed and left with old tooltips. There only seems to be a few issues left for professions mainly related to Spirit or Stamina or other secondary stats which shouldn't change hunter preferences anyways, as we only seek +Agility profession perks currently.
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#7 Gunba

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 08:46 PM

Settings % of Fight Spent in Kill Shot Range (<20%) 20
Settings % of Fight Spent in Careful Aim Range (>90%) 10


These two settings don't really make sense and artificially inflate MM DPS. I don't think you will ever see anything like this in a real log. Careful Aim phase is usually closer to 7% (since everyone has cooldowns, trinkets, etc.), Kill Shot phase is usually closer to 15% (saved cooldowns, execute).

#8 Rivkah

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 09:23 PM

These two settings don't really make sense and artificially inflate MM DPS. I don't think you will ever see anything like this in a real log. Careful Aim phase is usually closer to 7% (since everyone has cooldowns, trinkets, etc.), Kill Shot phase is usually closer to 15% (saved cooldowns, execute).


I would agree that the base settings aren't really that realistic. I've been meaning to change the defaults but I wasn't sure what default values would be most appropriate. The simc T14N profile seems to have the Careful Aim period only lasting 5.87% of the fight, and the kill shot range seems to last 19.05% of the fight. So I'm not sure if I should use those numbers as defaults, the careful aim period seems low (probably partly due to it including 25 dps which is not representative of an actual range).

#9 Whitefyst

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 11:00 PM

These two settings don't really make sense and artificially inflate MM DPS. I don't think you will ever see anything like this in a real log. Careful Aim phase is usually closer to 7% (since everyone has cooldowns, trinkets, etc.), Kill Shot phase is usually closer to 15% (saved cooldowns, execute).


I will not argue the point that many CA phases last less than 10% of the duration of the fight and that many KS phases last less than 20%. However, since there are not any really good values to use that will fit every situation and every fight, these are the values that I have chosen to use to keep things simple and consistent. Although most fights have the first 10% last less than 10% due to burning CDs, there are some fights were the "first" 10% lasts longer. A prime example is Al'Akir, and another is Zon'ozz.Then there are fights with multiple single targets all of which are not necessarily under RF and trinket proc situations but which all have significant CA portions, like a lot of the "council" fights (which surprisingly there were not any in Cata - although the Warmaster Blackthorn fight is similar with the main targets' CA phases well after prepotting and not necessarily lined up with trinkets and other CDs). Similarly, there are plenty of fights where the KS phase lasts longer than 20% of the duration of the fight due to the fight mechanics.

Although a full 10% CA phase does benefit MM some, the benefit is not as large as it used to be in Cata. All of the extra CDs we have greatly reduce the number of CA GCDs and available focus that are used on AI. Over this long 44s CA phase, only 11 AIs are performed. I count 14 GCDs during the CA phase that are used on other shots that were not performed previously in the CA phase. In addition, MMs perform less SSs in the CA phase currently too since not as many are needed for focus or SF maintenance. Furthermore, relatively speaking, AI just does not currently hit as hard relatively to other options as it used to, even with including the 100% crit chance and the PS effect. This is why it is worth it to cast MoC, DB, GT, and SrS/CS in the CA phase now. So although it is true that an extended CA phase does benefit MM DPS, it does not benefit nearly as much as it used to do.

Although the full KS phase benefits all 3 specs roughly equally since they are do about the same number of KSs and KS does about the same amount of damage for each, the extended KS phase helps MM the least of the 3 specs by a little bit. Removing KS from the priority hurts BS the most at about 3070 DPS, SV about the same at around 3017 DPS, and MM the least at approximately 2800. So on that point, you are actually misinformed about it helping MM most.

Remember, these Max DPS simulations are never 100% realistic, even for a standstill Patchwerk type fight. How many people have 0 latency and human reaction time and always know exactly the most perfect shot to perform with wasting the minimum amount of focus and delaying critical CDs by the minimum amount of time. Furthermore, a lot of these DPS gains/losses you see in FD are do to shot shifting and may not necessarily be real. And on how many fights do we start with BL at the start? It happens on a decent number of them, but even more save BL for some other critical phase of the fight, which skews the CA and KS phase periods more.

It is just as reasonable to point out that players almost never have 100% DPS uptime. It is also fair to point out that on many fights, pets have to switch targets or are stunned and that this simulation of 100% pet attack time and 100% hunter attack time (more GftT procs) unfairly benefits BM since they have not only greater pet DPS uptime but greater pet WH uptime. There are also situations in the simulation that unfairly benefit SV hunters as well.

These numbers just provide a decent baseline of what each spec can possibly do under the scenario provided for the simulation. It is then up for the individual players to apply judgements on the results to decide what is the best thing to do for real game play situations for their characters on a particular fight.

So unless someone can come up with better CA phase and KS phase estimates that fit every scenario in the game, I am going to leave these settings as is.

EDIT:

For the sake of posterity, I reran the sims with the extreme case of reducing the CA phase to 5% and the KS phase to 15% of the fight. Here is the resulting DPS loss for each spec.

BM: -695 DPS
MM: -2054 DPS
SV: -642 DPS

As expected, MM DPS was affected the most, but by only about 1.2% of overall DPS for the extreme case.

#10 Lilbitters

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 04:01 AM

BM Racial/Profession Neutral
DPS: 105527.69 -> 105692.58 (+164.89)
FD Link: Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer
Date: 9-16-2012
Changes:
-Shot Priority: [...], ET, AS, CoS
-Minimum Focus to use Arcane Shot: 63


BM Maximum DPS
DPS: 109495.70 -> 109876.62 (+380.92)
FD Link: Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer
Date: 9-16-2012
Changes:
-Shot Priority: [...], AS, ET, CoS
-Minimum Focus to use Arcane Shot: 70


Tried to check using Explosive Trap under MM and SV but each ran into problems.
ET may be a gain for MM, but would need a Disable while Careful Aim is active option.
ET may be a gain for SV, but would need an option to allow BA and ET in same priority list.

I may have just missed ways to get them to work how I intended, but either way the gain are very small and like Rivkah mentioned, will likely be slightly adjusted so that it's no longer a gain (like they did for Snake Trap).
It's not really a big deal in T14 gear, but with AP scaling, would be significant a tier or two from now and rather clunky to use. I feel the same way about Multi-Shot being a preferential way of applying Serpent Sting for SV.
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#11 Gunba

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 06:25 AM

I would agree that the base settings aren't really that realistic. I've been meaning to change the defaults but I wasn't sure what default values would be most appropriate. The simc T14N profile seems to have the Careful Aim period only lasting 5.87% of the fight, and the kill shot range seems to last 19.05% of the fight. So I'm not sure if I should use those numbers as defaults, the careful aim period seems low (probably partly due to it including 25 dps which is not representative of an actual range).


It almost entirely depends on when Bloodlust is being used. I think in the past I've seen 7% / 15% respectively on Baleroc / Ultraxion logs but it will largely depend on your guild and raid composition. Probably best to just ballpark it, the current values can't be any better.

#12 Exhawk

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:45 PM

Removed Focus Fire from priority list. (You want your pet in frenzy at all times)
Checked to not overlap Rapid Fire and Bestial Wrath. (You NEVER wanna do this)

116661.98 DPS in best BM Spec.

#13 Lilbitters

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:42 AM

Removed Focus Fire from priority list. (You want your pet in frenzy at all times)
Checked to not overlap Rapid Fire and Bestial Wrath. (You NEVER wanna do this)

116661.98 DPS in best BM Spec.


Checking the no overlap option ended up being a ~720/380 loss for the Neutral/Max DPS cases, however removing Focus Fire was a significant gain.

BM Racial/Profession Neutral
DPS: 105692.58 -> 112356.92 (+6664.34)
FD Link: Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer
Date: 9-17-2012
Changes:
-Shot Priority: Removed Focus Fire
-Minimum Focus to use Arcane Shot: 70

BM Max DPS
DPS: 109876.62 -> 117130.28 (+7253.66)
FD Link: Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer
Date: 9-17-2012
Changes:
-Shot Priority: Removed Focus Fire
-Minimum Focus to use Arcane Shot: 65
Bitterst of <Void> on US-Mug'thol, <Ascent> on US-Thrall, and <Shadow Remains> on US-Earthen Ring
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#14 Lokrick

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 04:31 AM

Checking the no overlap option ended up being a ~720/380 loss for the Neutral/Max DPS cases, however removing Focus Fire was a significant gain.


This turns out to be a bug in FD. Zeherah reports that this looks like a bug in frenzy introduced with the new pet melee simulation, and that it will be fixed soon.

Incidentally, we have the great fortune to have 3 different tools for hunter modeling right now. If you get a surprising result in one sim tool, it's worth verifying with another. In this case, it's straightforward to check with simc:

> simc ptr=1 Hunter_BM_T14N.simc copy=no_focus_fire skip_actions=focus_fire

 86451  50.7%  Hunter_BM_T14N
 83925  49.3%  no_focus_fire
Further digging into the html results shows for example that the no_focus_fire case gets only 28 more melee swings during the fight. So focus_fire is still worth 2.5k dps to use.

#15 Namarus

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 04:36 AM

Would you consider a max dps list for Challenges? It would be a little different from the normal tier stuff, since tier bonuses don't work in Challenges.

#16 Rivkah

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 05:01 AM

Would you consider a max dps list for Challenges? It would be a little different from the normal tier stuff, since tier bonuses don't work in Challenges.


I haven't been following challenges that closely. Are there some rules posted somewhere about how they work? I could look at implementing a challenge mode flag on the site, but I'd need to know more about the mechanics of what happens with gear and such.

I fixed the frenzy bug on my site, so any BM sims that weren't including Focus Fire should be recalculated to see what the correct dps is. I also added support for stampede pets getting invigoration, so that will affect things a bit as well.

#17 Nooska

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 07:31 AM

Further digging into the html results shows for example that the no_focus_fire case gets only 28 more melee swings during the fight. So focus_fire is still worth 2.5k dps to use.


Also, from an analytical standpoint, the attacks you gain are pet melee, while you will lose out on some pet basic attacks - Focus Fire refunds focus to the pet for more basic attacks (or alternatively wild hunt procs).

#18 Whitefyst

Whitefyst

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 01:30 PM

I did a quick optimization with putting FF back into the BM rotations now that the bug is fixed.

It appears though that it is best to use FF when you have nothing else to do but CoS to regain focus. What I mean by this is that everything else is on CD (including ET) and you do not meet the minimum focus requirement desired to cast AS (around 63). Since I am not really familar with BM, I am not 100% sure concerning about how that affects its number of uses since FD does not indicate when its available for use relative to when it is used as far as I can see.

Looking at the times between FF, I see a decent amount of variability between 34s and 49s, which indicates to me that the cast is indeed being delayed in many cases. Here is the breakdown with some additional information:

Time|Time Since Last|Focus|Note
42.3|-|26.3|A few seconds after RF pair and then BL has completed
80.3|38|29.0|
123.1|42.8|54.9|
165.7|42.6|32.3|
209.3|43.6|21.9|Occurred during RF
245.0|35.7|51.9|
288.6|43.6|54.6|
337.9|48.3|57.6|Had Readiness use with double DB for focus and a RF
377.4|39.5|21.2|
411.5|34.1|14.5|


From a binomial probability, I would expect for between 11 and 12 pet basic attacks to fully stack Frenzy. That would mean on average that fully stacked Frenzies should occur roughly every 36 to 40s, assuming a basic attack speed of 3.3. Although in the sim, the pet did attack in most cases at around 3.3 to 3.4s, there were a few cases of almost 5s between basic attacks, which will skewthings a bit.

I also do not know how Frenzy stacks are modeled in FD - whether each basic attack actually has a probability to gain a stack or whether some average number of attacks is used. I assume the former, which also results in more variability in the number of attacks between FFs.

But I would assume that the FF cast is being delayed a little in some of the situations in which it occurred. I am wondering whether it would be hard to update FD to instead just indicating whether Frenzy is up to also indicate the number of stacks by appending the number or to at least indicate when Frenzy is fully stacked so we can evaluate what the delays in FF casts are and whether it is actually beneficial to delay it in certain situations.

While it may be good to delay casting FF is some situations, it may not be good in other situations. It is obviously good to delay casting FF when you are under procs that increase your stats that are inherited by your pet. It is also good to delay casting FF when your pet has plenty of focus and is attacking at its maximum rate with a lot of WH uptime, this includes cases when the hunter is hasted and/or is high on focus and is casting more shots that can result in more GftT procs.

#19 Namarus

Namarus

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:34 PM

The only info I could find was.

Challenge Mode Gear Scaling - MMO-Champion BlueTracker

The system that will be used for challenge modes upon release actually preserves your hit and expertise bonuses, compensating by deducting extra rating from your other secondary stats (crit, haste, mastery, Spirit) in proportion to how much of each you had to begin with.

This sounds complicated, but it should be relatively seamless and handled behind the scenes, with the intent being to minimize the need to reforge/regem for challenge modes.

To use some decidedly fake numbers, let's say I have an average ilvl of 500 and I have the following stats:

Outdoors (Item Level 500)
3400 Hit Rating (+10%)
3400 Expertise (+10%)
6000 Crit (+10%)
0 Mastery (+0%)
8500 Haste (+20%)

When I enter a challenge dungeon, my ilvl scales down to 463, reducing my stats by roughly 30% (rounding for the sake of simplicity). However, the system keeps my Hit and Expertise values unchanged, overcompensating by reducing the other ratings more heavily.

So my challenge mode stats would be:

In Challenge Mode (Item Level 463)
3400 Hit Rating (+10%)
3400 Expertise (+10%)
3356 Crit (+5.6%)
0 Mastery (+0%)
4754 Haste (+11.2%)

(Now yes, if your normal gearset is designed to hit-cap you against raid bosses, you'll effectively be slightly over the hit cap against dungeon targets, so people looking to min/max completely may still have some tinkering to do, but unless you're aiming to beat the realm-best time, the cost of being a couple percent over the hit cap is going to pale in comparison to the benefit of precise and coordinated play.)

Tl;dr version: If you are hit-capped before you enter a challenge mode, you'll still be hit-capped inside. It's magic.


I did read somewhere that set bonuses won't apply, but I have found any blue confirmation.

#20 Stangg

Stangg

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:41 PM

[quote name='Namarus']
I did read somewhere that set bonuses won't apply, but I have found any blue confirmation.[/QUOTE]

Confirmation on set bonuses being disabled was answered in a tweet:

[quote name='http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2928-Zone-Previews-Blue-Tweets-MoP-Design-Interview-Curse-Weekly-Roundup']

Do you expect players to be able to jump into challenge modes in blues? or will set-bonuses make that non-viable?
Challenge modes are harder than level 90 heroic dungeons and we don't scale gear upwards. Set bonuses also are disabled.

[/QUOTE]




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