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[MoP] Best Possible DPS with Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer (femaledwarf.com)


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#41 Whitefyst

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 04:21 AM

What limits are you placing on profiles. For simc T15H, we use any heroic or Raden loot (which is thunderforged), but not other thunderforged loot. My understanding is that other thunderforged loot will be quite rare, or at least rare enough that it's not useful for guidance or planning. Additionally, simc normally runs with the assumption that 2 shaman and 2 warriors are dropping totems and banners respectively. One note: the current best profile has only 10% for the CA period instead of 20%.

The primary improvements in the T15H profile under FD came from saving focus for murder and prioritizing chimera. That still isn't as good as the current best here, but there are two interesting notes: for just a small difference in overall dps, the tradeoffs around murder and chimera flipped; and that in simc the profiles are different in their performance. I suspect a non-trivial difference is in the shot selection during the rune trinket proc. I could potentially build an entirely different shot selection for a rune proc in simc, for example. That made a big enough difference for Monk to be worth special work (and it made the trinket BiS). I have not yet encountered proposals for those behavior differences, though.


Thanks for the feedback - very much appreciated. Some comments:

1) Good catch on the CA phase duration. I am pretty sure that I had changed that but when going back to a previous save I must have undone it. Both MM profiles are now updated to include the 20% CA phase.

2) Concerning the limits on the profile, for the most part I tried to specify that in the Fixed Settings area. In there, I chose to set Skull Banner and Stormlash Totem to zero. The reason was somewhat arbitrary considering that this is a max DPS case, but I left those off since those are specific buffs provided only by a single class or spec that not every 10-man raid will have included.

3) Concerning the Thunderforged gear, good point on its rarity and the very small odds that anyone will have all the possible Thunderforged gear. I did not consider it when quickly making this profile. However, what reasonable limits would your propose? Use no Thunderforge gear? Limit the number of Thunderforge items?

4) As I stated in the post, I am pretty busy at the moment and just quickly formed this profile to get the ball rolling with knowing that there should be room for improvement. Your note seemed to indicate some changes that could be made (beyond the buffs), but I was unclear on what exactly you were suggesting. Please clarify, and I will update the profile.

5) I agree 100% that when Rune of Reorgination procs that the rotation should ideally be changed (like we do for RFs), but FD already does a pretty good job of doing that automatically where from a quick assessment I do not see really anything I would change. My thoughts on the 3 possible situations:
- Haste is highest stat: This one is the easiest to model in FD since when the proc occurs, it is mostly modeled as increased haste rating, which is factored into shot cast times. Thus, FD automatically switches to using AI as the focus dump, and the chosen FD rotation should be pretty ideal. The problem with this case is that SS cast time is incrediblly low and the huge loss of crit makes each shots damage greatly reduced.
- Crit is the highest stat: When the trinket procs, we have no haste rating from gear. Thus, the base SS cast time is much longer at the base 1.58s with raid buffs and SF. FD should self adjust pretty well for the slower SS cast time and the lower focus regen and automatically adjust the shot selection accordingly. The situation is very troublesome in the CA phase where that extra crit is mostly wasted since SS and AI are already crit capped and where the loss of haste adversely affects AI cast time once RF wears off.
- Mastery is the highest stat: Since I currently do not see any value to such a build (unless for AoE), I will not dicusss it, but I believe that FD models it sufficiently.

The main problem that I have with this trinket is that we work hard to reforge our gear to get the ideal optimization of the stats. While it is true that you can change the stats some amount and see relatively little change in DPS, when you totally clear out 2 of the stats in favor of 1, the situation is unbalanced and definitely a DPS loss.

#42 Lokrick

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 05:54 AM

...
2) Concerning the limits on the profile, for the most part I tried to specify that in the Fixed Settings area. In there, I chose to set Skull Banner and Stormlash Totem to zero. The reason was somewhat arbitrary considering that this is a max DPS case, but I left those off since those are specific buffs provided only by a single class or spec that not every 10-man raid will have included.

3) Concerning the Thunderforged gear, good point on its rarity and the very small odds that anyone will have all the possible Thunderforged gear. I did not consider it when quickly making this profile. However, what reasonable limits would your propose? Use no Thunderforge gear? Limit the number of Thunderforge items?

4) As I stated in the post, I am pretty busy at the moment and just quickly formed this profile to get the ball rolling with knowing that there should be room for improvement. Your note seemed to indicate some changes that could be made (beyond the buffs), but I was unclear on what exactly you were suggesting. Please clarify, and I will update the profile.

5) I agree 100% that when Rune of Reorgination procs that the rotation should ideally be changed (like we do for RFs), but FD already does a pretty good job of doing that automatically where from a quick assessment I do not see really anything I would change. My thoughts on the 3 possible situations:


Simc "optimal_raid" provides all bufs, since 25-man progression groups will have that; hence it presumes 2 warriors and 2 shamans. I mostly wanted to mention that so that people know what simc numbers are based on when comparing with FD.

The profiles specify no random thunderforged. Heroic Ra-den only drops thunderforged loot, hence his is allowed. Allowing 1 piece of non-Ra-den loot would also not be useful since one cannot really plan for it.

I don't have recommendations for the profile yet; the clone of the quick profile I use in simc (which does not use the reorigination trinket) benefited from different settings, but it's both a different profile and that experimentation was before we found and fixed some bugs in both simc and FD. Simc was applying the steady focus buff to haste (and so focus regen and RPPM), and FD was not applying enough haste (and had old coefficient for capacitive primal). The two are much more in line now.

The Rune trinket looks most challenging for MM because of the issues you mentioned. I wonder whether whether it would be a win to have two weapons, with stats reforged so that one weapon ensures selecting haste during CA and the other ensures selecting crit outside of CA. I think simc can support weapon swapping, so we can see whether it's worthy of the effort.

#43 Whitefyst

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 02:38 PM

Simc "optimal_raid" provides all bufs, since 25-man progression groups will have that; hence it presumes 2 warriors and 2 shamans. I mostly wanted to mention that so that people know what simc numbers are based on when comparing with FD.

The profiles specify no random thunderforged. Heroic Ra-den only drops thunderforged loot, hence his is allowed. Allowing 1 piece of non-Ra-den loot would also not be useful since one cannot really plan for it.

The Rune trinket looks most challenging for MM because of the issues you mentioned. I wonder whether whether it would be a win to have two weapons, with stats reforged so that one weapon ensures selecting haste during CA and the other ensures selecting crit outside of CA. I think simc can support weapon swapping, so we can see whether it's worthy of the effort.


Concerning the buffs, I think that I will keep it as I currently have it. This way SimC results can be more tuned to 25-man and this thread to 10-man. Plus, if any individual wants to see the results with the buffs, it is an easy modification for them to make.

Concerning the Thunderforged gear in the profile, I just checked and all 5 pieces are available off Ra-don according to MMO Champions.

Great idea on the weapon swapping possibility for rune.

#44 Effinhunter

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:48 AM

It's up to you whether or not you want to include Thunderforged in the criteria. However, from a 25-man guild perspective, we've been seeing an average of 2 Thunderforged drops per boss in ToT on normal. There was one boss that had zero Thunderforged, and we've seen up to 3 on a boss (and that was equally as unique as 0).

In case you didn't realize, Thunderforged can also drop on coins. I received two pieces of Thunderforged from coins over the past two weeks: a trinket and cloak. That being said, it's obviously random, but Wowprogress did track the Thunderforge drops that were given to players during the first week and came out to the following percentages:

Thunderforged item rates: 10-man vs 25-man :: WoWProgress - World of Warcraft Rankings

10-man
Guilds killed the first boss: 9616
Items equipped: 19123
Thunderforged items equipped: 2228
Thunderforged items percentage: 11.7%

25-man
Guilds killed the first boss: 1326
Items equipped: 7907
Thunderforged items equipped: 2033
Thunderforged items percentage: 25.7%

I personally see no reason to exclude the Thunderforges from the criteria.

#45 Effinhunter

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 04:34 PM

Legendary meta gem and Bad Juju trinket. The following only have Thunderforged from Ra-den.

Max BM DPS: 176,664.74
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

Max MM DPS: 175,782.08
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

Max SV DPS: 172,919.63
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer


Thunderforged Max DPS:

Replacing the above heroics with heroic thunderforges yields the following:

Thunderforged BM DPS: 181,516.89
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

Thunderforged MM DPS: 173,621.92 (this seems incorrect and is less than the regular heroic gear equivalents and should go up once the spreadsheet is updated for whatever item is messing things up)
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

Thunderforged SV DPS: 178,599.23
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer


Edit: All of these should go up by over 1k dps per profile when the prismatic slot is added for the ranged Heroic Thunderforged Durumu's weapon. Right now, the spreadsheet does not include this slot on any heroic thunderforged items, and I assume this will eventually be corrected. When the spreadsheet is updated, I'll update the profile to include the +160agi gem in the weapon.

#46 Rivkah

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 06:38 PM

Edit: All of these should go up by over 1k dps per profile when the prismatic slot is added for the ranged Heroic Thunderforged Durumu's weapon. Right now, the spreadsheet does not include this slot on any heroic thunderforged items, and I assume this will eventually be corrected. When the spreadsheet is updated, I'll update the profile to include the +160agi gem in the weapon.


I've fixed the weapons missing the prismatic sockets- I just didn't realize I'd forgotten to put them in until I saw your message (I'm basically just adding them manually to any weapon that's supposed to have one).

#47 Effinhunter

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:53 PM

I've fixed the weapons missing the prismatic sockets- I just didn't realize I'd forgotten to put them in until I saw your message (I'm basically just adding them manually to any weapon that's supposed to have one).


Thanks and cheers, Rivkah!

Updated values:

BM Thunderforged DPS: 183,135.57
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

MM Thunderforged DPS: 175,022.66 (something is still internally wrong with this one as it is a direct thunderforged upgrade. My guess is this should read 182k dps. If I get some time this week, I'll try tweaking this later to determine what is throwing the spreadsheet off.)
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

SV Thunderforged DPS: 180,358.49
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

#48 NoGoal

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 03:59 PM

Heroic Thunderforged Rune of Re-Origination doesn't seem to exist on wowhead nor wowdb.

Also, for the BM profile, it sims Troll at ~100 DPS higher than Orc with that item (didn't reforge so Orc lack 1% expertise). Simply removing that trinket and Orc is ~1000 DPS higher than Troll. Is it because that profile has low mastery, because Troll can use berserking when that trinket proc, or something else?

#49 Effinhunter

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 04:56 PM

Heroic Thunderforged Rune of Re-Origination doesn't seem to exist on wowhead nor wowdb.

Also, for the BM profile, it sims Troll at ~100 DPS higher than Orc with that item (didn't reforge so Orc lack 1% expertise). Simply removing that trinket and Orc is ~1000 DPS higher than Troll. Is it because that profile has low mastery, because Troll can use berserking when that trinket proc, or something else?


If I remove the Heroic Thunderforged Rune, I get -17k dps. Was there something you were replacing it with? If you add 319 expertise to the profile and switch it to Orc, you will get 1k+ dps, but it's also a custom addition to the spreadsheet to make the Orc expertise-capped that is not represented via gear, food, or some in game mechanic.

Edit: After tinkering around with trinkets, I have found a new BM profile that increases dps by ~3k and MM slightly (though again, something is still broken in regards to these profiles in MM in the sim). SV drops by ~400dps, so I'll just include the BM profile.

Heroic BM: 177,625.06 (+624)
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

Heroic Thunderforged BM: 186210.69
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

The main change here was in using heroic thunderforged Renataki's Soul Charm rather than the Rune of Reorigination. Everything else is just reforges to get rid of the excess expertise from the new trinket.

#50 NoGoal

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:38 PM

I wrongly focused on Rune trinket. The difference between the 2 races is due to Troll having enough focus to get an extra MoC. Saving focus for MoC bring the 2 races close.

#51 exila

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:42 PM

in Simulated Shot Breakdown, Rune of Re-Origination always proc every 22 -30 sec, its newer work like that.
same for all versions (lfr,heroic).

#52 Effinhunter

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 02:21 PM

I've also noted that the uptime for Bad Juju and the Shado-Pan Assault trinket range from 14% to 35% in world of logs parses (the simulators tend to keep the uptime at 30%, which is rarer--though, I am analyzing parses from this week which look more promising). Your mileage will vary from fight-to-fight with any rppm trinket--especially if you have two of them. Example parses from last week and this week with both trinkets (and it seems like the patch this week might have implemented the rppm bad streak protections from looking at the consistency of ~30% ones):


Example parses of both trinkets from last week (some go as low as 14% and avg tends to be less than 20%):

Jin'rok the Breaker (Juju uptime: 19%, Valor uptime: 24.7%)
Details for Effinhunter - 19-03 20:31 - High Five - World of Logs

Council (Juju uptime: 16.9%, Valor uptime: 20%):
Details for Effinhunter - 20-03 20:28 - High Five - World of Logs

Tortos (Juju uptime: 29.3%, Valor uptime: 14.2%):
Details for Effinhunter - 20-03 20:28 - High Five - World of Logs

Megaera (Juju uptime: 23.7%, Valor uptime: 20%):
Details for Effinhunter - 20-03 20:28 - High Five - World of Logs

Ji'kun (Juju uptime: 16.3%, Valor uptime: 20.4%)
Details for Effinhunter - 20-03 20:28 - High Five - World of Logs

Durumu parse (Juju uptime: 30%, Valor uptime: 18.4%):
Details for Effinhunter - 21-03 20:59 - High Five - World of Logs

Primordius (Juju uptime: 18.3%, Valor uptime: 18.3%):
Details for Effinhunter - 21-03 20:59 - High Five - World of Logs

Dark Animus (Juju uptime: 21.9%, Valor uptime: 20.7%):
Details for Effinhunter - 21-03 20:59 - High Five - World of Logs

Iron Qon (Juju uptime 25.6%:, Valor uptime: 19.7%):
Details for Effinhunter - 25-03 21:11 - High Five - World of Logs


This week (week starting 3/26/2013, more rppms closer to 30% and one at 35%):

Jin'Rok the Breaker (Juju uptime: 29.2%, Valor uptime: 19.4%)
Details for Effinhunter - 26-03 20:00 - High Five - World of Logs

Horridon (Juju uptime: 29.4%, Valor uptime: 16.9%):
Details for Effinhunter - 26-03 20:00 - High Five - World of Logs

Council (Juju uptime: 19%, Valor uptime: 16.6%):
Details for Effinhunter - 26-03 20:00 - High Five - World of Logs

Tortos (Juju uptime: 30.1%, Valor uptime: 18.1%):
Details for Effinhunter - 26-03 20:00 - High Five - World of Logs

Megaera (Juju uptime: 27.4%, Valor uptime: 18.3%):
Details for Effinhunter - 26-03 20:00 - High Five - World of Logs

Ji'kun (Juju uptime: 21.5%, Valor uptime: 35.9%):
Details for Effinhunter - 26-03 20:00 - High Five - World of Logs

We'll see how the uptimes look next week and as the rest of the week progresses (I'll likely just update this post instead of spreading out parses).


P.S. Regarding Thunderforged. The drop rate for Thunderforged seems to be holding steady at 1% per person in the raid (10% drop rate for 10 mans (verified with alt runs) and 25% for 25 mans). I'm unsure if coins have a higher chance of getting Thunderforged in 25 mans as well (e.g. does it multiply 10% or 25% against the possible loot table or something else entirely?) The key benefit of 25 man is that you are more likely to have Thunderforged that goes to a person who can use it and not sharding it (e.g., in a 10 man without a hunter or enh shaman, agi mail will be sharded regardless of if it is BiS for a class because the armor type is unrepresented), but 10 man should still be able to get full BiS Thunderforged. They are just more likely to shard gear for class/armor types and consequently take longer to get everyone Thunderforged.

Additionally, unlike the last tier, it is far more likely that everyone will be able to fully upgrade all of their gear by next raid content patch. In 5.3, valor upgrades are only going to cost 500 valor badges for fully upgrading a single piece of gear (versus 1500 badges which was extremely prohibitive in 5.1). Consequently, most raiders who clear all content in 5.3 should have a very good chance to get not only BiS Thunderforged but also fully upgraded

#53 Effinhunter

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 03:03 PM

Also, the dps values of the current BiS profiles have changed in the spreadsheet. These are the updated profile values (with links to settings):

BM (Heroic with only Thunderforged Ra-Den): 182,827.30 dps
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

BM (Heroic Thunderforged): 196,969.25 dps
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

MM (Heroic with only Thunderforged Ra-Den): 179,598.41 dps
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

MM (Heroic Thunderforged): 187,523.97 dps
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

SV (Heroic with only Thunderforged Ra-Den): 177,186.80 dps
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

SV (Heroic Thunderforged): 188,586.98 dps
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

Edit: I'm pretty sure there's a better profile for SV with only thunderforged from Ra-Den, but I haven't spent as much time tweaking it. When I plugged in the simcraft optimal gear, it was lower in Zeherah's Analyzer. There are several changes since last template--mostly maximizing haste to allow for Rune of Origination to be optimized. Belts, helms, gems, and various other things have been changed to favor haste. Still tweaking the profiles. Trying to see if I can push BM to 200k.

#54 NoGoal

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 12:07 PM

198 695.76 DPS for HC+TF BM:

Race: Orc
Don't save focus for MoC: uncheck
Rotation:

Serpent Sting
Bestial Wrath
A Murder of Crows
Kill Shot
Kill Command
Rapid Fire
Dire Beast
Glaive Toss
Readiness
Stampede
Arcane Shot
Explosive Trap
Focus Fire
Cobra Shot

Gear:
- Voice of the Quilen HC+TF (+80 agi for -80 stamina) hit->crit
- Chest: exp->crit
- Ring 1: hit->crit
- Gloves: remove reforge

#55 Effinhunter

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 04:23 PM

Well, I guess one consequence of an excess of the hit and expertise ratings on our gear would be that having 1% extra expertise would eventually catch up to trolls. Orc is now back on top for BM. Nice catch, NoGoal.

Edit: After a lot of tweaking, I was able to get troll back on top with the Voice of the Quillen and a switch to the Beady-Eye Bracers (Crit) and some various reforging.

Orc (NoGoals's template but with different shot rotation to up BM dps):

BM (Heroic Thunderforged): : 199,010.80 dps
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

MM (Heroic Thunderforged): 191,844.66 dps (same armor profile as the troll one)
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

SV (Heroic Thunderforged): 190,159.53 dps
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer


Troll (Alternate gear template with Voice and Beady-eye Bracer (crit) with reforging changes):

BM (Heroic Thunderforged): 199,279.52 dps (tweaked BM rotation)
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

MM (Heroic Thunderforged): 194,213.16 dps
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

SV (Heroic Thunderforged): 191,393.90 dps
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

#56 Effinhunter

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 05:47 AM

Rivkah updated the proc rate for the Rune of Reorigination, and it is no longer anywhere near BiS. I've updated the BiS profiles accordingly:

BM Thunderforged Heroic BiS: 195,130.80 dps
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

MM Thunderforged Heroic BiS: 188,916.41 dps
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

SV Thunderforged Heroic BiS: 187,948.89 dps
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

Current gear list for all profiles:

Head: HTF Gaze of Gara'jal
Neck: HTF Necklace of the Terra-Cotta Archer
Shoulders: H Saurok Stalkers Shoulders
Back: HTF Grey Wind Mistcloak
Chest: H Saurok Stalkers Tunic
Bracers: HTF Beady Eye Bracers (Crit)
Gloves: H Saurok Stalkers Gloves
Belt: HTF Jingling Fetishgirdle
Pants: H Saurok Stalkers Legguards
Boots: HTF Treads of the Sanguine Volley
Ring 1: HTF Ra-den's Swift Seal
Ring 2: HTF Gore-Soaked Gear
Trinket 1: HTF Bad Juju
Trinket 2: HTF Renataki's
Ranged: HTF Voice of the Quillen

BM shot priority: SS, KS, BW, KC, GT, AMoC, DB, Stampede, RF, Readiness, AS, FF, ET, CS
MM shot priority: Defaults
SV shot priority: Defaults

We'll see where we go from here.

#57 Effinhunter

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 06:50 AM

So, I've modeled some 5.3 PTR builds and tried several different stat priority profiles, as well as the new Blink Strike. Here were the results.

5.3 PTR BM HTF

220,236.71 dps
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

Blink Strike
ilvl 600 cloak
Beady-eye Bracers (Haste) instead of (Crit)
Gem changes to agi/haste instead of agi/crit
Trinket reforges to haste instead of crit

5.3 PTR SV HTF

209,967.26 dps
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

AMoC (BS is NOT preferred here and is a DPS loss)
ilvl 600 cloak
Shot priority change: BA > AMoC > KS > GT > RF > DB > ES > Ready > Stamp > MS > AS > CS
Enable "Only cast Multi-Shot when Serpent Sting expires"
Disable "Wait Shots: Kill Shot"
Target reforging to roughly equal crit and haste, but the simulator is incredibly fickle in tweaking slightly. Aiming for significantly higher haste than crit was a significant dps loss in SV profiles.


5.3 PTR MM HTF

206,633.67 dps
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

AMoC (BS is NOT preferred here and is a DPS loss)
ilvl 600 cloak
Beady-eye Bracers (Haste) instead of (Crit)
Gem changes to agi/haste instead of agi/crit
Trinket reforges to haste instead of crit
Check "Disable Arcane Shot while Careful Aim is active"

#58 Lokrick

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 07:16 AM

So, I've modeled some 5.3 PTR builds ... Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer


It's worth noting that the Necklace of the Terra-Cotta Archer (and in other profiles, ) are world drops, and don't have heroic versions. I just updated the simc T15H profiles to use TF gear (though not the 5.3
Tigerfang Wrap), prioritized for haste>crit>mastery:
Spoiler

Without the Terra-Cotta necklace, it's difficult to reforge out of enough hit without switching to items with less agility. So I look forward to seeing better gearsets.

#59 NoGoal

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 09:08 AM

You can get heroic versions of trash drops from the black market auction house.

#60 Lokrick

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 06:31 PM

You can get heroic versions of trash drops from the black market auction house.


I've heard that theory, but not that it provides 541-level versions. In any case, is there any evidence that it shows up there? I did a search on the Undermine Journal, and they don't show it having ever appeared on any BMAH. By comparison, appears multiple times, though rarely more than once per server. Given the rarity and inability to influence the availability, I recommend ignoring BMAH as significant source of gear, and therefor leaving it out of example profile planning.

EDIT: The shoulders is a shared boss drop and so comes in all the heroic and thunderforged variants. The Terracotta necklace however is a zone drop and appears to only appear as LFR and normal mode. It does however appear in regular thunderforged version.




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