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#21 Wrathblood

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:58 AM

Well, its possible things changed, but a while back GC posted in a Dev Watercooler than it would be 7.5% miss/parry/dodge/block Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes - World of Warcraft. I've been running with that assumption since then but I'm re-testing it now.

Re: Haste vs Expertise, I'm curious to see the numbers. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the first point of Exp beats the first point of Haste (for damage smoothing. Remember that ShoR up-time is a big part of damage smoothing, but its not actually synonymous with it), but I'd be very surprised if the final point that gets us to Hard-cap for Exp is still better than the first point of Haste.

Edit - Just did a quick 300 naked melee swings against the boss training dummy. 7.4% of swings were Parried and 6.4% were dodged. Its a small sample, but I feel pretty comfortable that Parry isn't 15%.

#22 Brokenone

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 01:32 AM

Well, its possible things changed, but a while back GC posted in a Dev Watercooler than it would be 7.5% miss/parry/dodge/block Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes - World of Warcraft. I've been running with that assumption since then but I'm re-testing it now.

Re: Haste vs Expertise, I'm curious to see the numbers. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the first point of Exp beats the first point of Haste (for damage smoothing. Remember that ShoR up-time is a big part of damage smoothing, but its not actually synonymous with it), but I'd be very surprised if the final point that gets us to Hard-cap for Exp is still better than the first point of Exp.

Edit - Just did a quick 300 naked melee swings against the boss training dummy. 7.4% of swings were Parried and 6.4% were dodged. Its a small sample, but I feel pretty comfortable that Parry isn't 15%.


Ah, my bad. The first 7.5% of expertise removes dodge only. The next 7.5% removes parry only. So I think you were correct in that expertise should be relatively the same for a tank (attacking from the front) for each point of expertise rating.

#23 Fairgrim

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 01:41 AM

Expertise goes up to 15% the first 7.5% removes Dodge then the second 7.5% removes Parry
An empty Hit table includes 7.5% Miss + 7.5% Dodge + 7.5% Parry then 72.5% normal hits and 5.0% Critical.

#24 Balhale

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 04:33 AM

Obviously not quite as useful for raiding, but the Blinding Light glyph that makes it a 3 second aoe stun could be quite useful for challenge modes where you need to be able to pull and survive large groups of trash.

#25 Exemplar

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:29 PM

Well, its possible things changed, but a while back GC posted in a Dev Watercooler than it would be 7.5% miss/parry/dodge/block Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes - World of Warcraft. I've been running with that assumption since then but I'm re-testing it now.


I'll admit I haven't done testing to prove one way or the other. However, the last time I looked at the L90 mouseover tooltip for Expertise, even when capped for DPS (7.5% for attacking behind) it referenced a % by which I would be parried in the front.

I had heard/read the same info about 7.5% removing all dodge/parry, but that does not appear to have stayed around for live. Fairgrim's seems a logical explanation that at 7.5% you'd no longer get dodges at all, only parries. Expertise would first remove all dodge from table, then start removing parry, instead of removing both simultaneously.
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#26 Wrathblood

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 01:04 PM

Exemplar,

Yes, that's exactly how my understanding works as well, though I admit that I'd also never tested it until the abbreviated one I ran last night. The first 7.5% of Expertise removes the Dodge and the next 7.5% removes the Parry. The first 7.5% contributes to spell hit as well but I'm not sure if the next 7.5% does. If you were rocking 0% Hit and 15% Expertise for some reason, would you be spell-hit capped? I think so, but I'm not sure. Also, I believe the first 7.5% Expertise additionally removes Block but I haven't tested it.

Edit - With regard to the relative value of Haste and Expertise, one thing that occurs to me is raid buffs. Its entirely possible that, in a vacuum, the first point of Haste is better than the last point of Expertise in terms of damage smoothing, but we don't raid in a vacuum and the stats make each other better. Raid buffs don't do anything for your Expertise, but they can supply a metric crap-ton of Haste, ~4250 itemization points worth of it for melee. Its possible that buff by itself is enough of a thumb on the scale to make Expertise superior all the way up to Hard cap.

#27 Balhale

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 04:41 PM

Except that the raid buff provides 0 haste, not 4250 points of it. It is attack speed and thus only boosts white swings. No effect on Holy Power generation at all.

#28 Charybdis

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 08:26 PM

Theck doesn't disappoint: Damage Smoothing: Expertise, Mastery, and Haste | Sacred Duty has the data for larger amounts of expertise, including hard caps. What he found is that capping hit and expertise had a massive impact on our spikes, so much so that at the bottom he even recommends that the optimal start for a control setup is to hard cap both. After that haste and mastery trade blows since they both have their pros and cons.

In the comments someone asked about gemming and whether we should go for stamina or the secondary stat of choice. As I recall, we've usually gone for enough stamina to survive the big stuff then worked on secondary stats. Active mitigation throws a bit of a wrench into that because we can do a lot to prevent damage spikes, but there is still the statistical possibility of shit hitting the fan and us getting nuked. Trinkets will probably be the way to go with that, so I suppose a list is in order:

Typical tank trinkets would be:













I included the Mogu Rune because a stun will tend to be quite handy in certain circumstances.

Of the others I'm partial to the on-use items that grant actual stats instead of an NPC. in particular should be one of our starting trinkets because it's a reputation buy. All of the proc trinkets grant dodge which I've never really noticed while tanking, but extra stats are extra stats.

Oddly enough there are no parry trinkets past ilvl 450 so far in MoP, so if we want parry from a trinket we'll have to go with strength. There are also no armor trinkets whatsoever.

If we look at trinkets that grant expertise, haste, hit, or strength the list expands to include the following. I've added parry values next to the ones with strength. According to the OP 952 strength equals 1% parry, or 888 parry rating before DR, so that's what I'll be going by.

Theck's post below indicates the parry rating for 1% parry is 885, and the strength conversion is ~951.15 strength for 1% before Kings et al, thus it's ~905.86 after. I've adjusted the numbers for strength after Kings to show raid-buffed numbers. Of special note here is strength after kings grants 97.7% the amount of parry as parry rating itself (~905/885). Since secondary ratings get double the itemization on gems we won't really be able to take advantage of this much, but it's nice to note for purposes like trinket selection.

(5.03% parry, 4455.97 rating equivalent)
(7.01% parry, 6211.58 rating equivalent)
(4.67%, 4134.54 rating)
(2.80%, 2480.53 rating)
(1.05%, 933.98 rating)
(1.05%, 933.98 rating on base, 3.34% or 2957.29 rating on proc)
(1.12%, 997.48 rating)
(1.19%, 1054.15 rating)

Chances are you'll get some odd looks from wearing these as a tank but you can be safe in the knowledge that those you can't reforge all grant at least 1% parry. The extra oomph to WoG (and SoI if you're using it) might also be helpful.

They all make excellent DPS trinkets as Theck has shown at MATLAB DPS Simulations for 5.0.5 and Q & A | Sacred Duty, so if you're happy with your survivability and just want to kick some ass then any of these are good choices.

Edit: Just for the hell of it I'm going to do a rough comparison of tier gear versus other same slot items to see if they're actually worth it.

Tier pieces are:

(exp/mastery)
(dodge/mastery)
(parry/exp)
(dodge/hit)
(parry/hit)

2P bonus: Reduces CD of Ardent Defender by 60 seconds.
4P bonus: Increases WoG healing by 10% and damage reduction of SotR by 10%

The set bonuses are very nice. AD every 2 minutes instead of 3 will save your life (and likely the raid) plenty of times. The 4P is roughly equivalent to 6000 mastery rating (assuming it's 600 mastery for every 1% like in the OP), but isn't quite there because it doesn't increase block percent too. There is no gear combination in those few slots that will make up for that, which means 4P is definitely the way to go.

Speaking of stats, I expect the 4P to raise the value of expertise, haste, and hit a bit since HoPo generation is worth more.

All of the pieces are good depending on your gearing style. If you want to cap hit and expertise then the legguards are the odd man out with no accuracy stats. Swapping over to will give you expertise and mastery. If you'd rather not use a Ret tier piece then the following are all pretty decent options for prot pallies:








and should be noted as items Blizz has taken strength out of and put into secondary stats (parry and dodge respectively).

#29 Theck

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:19 PM

If we look at trinkets that grant expertise, haste, hit, or strength the list expands to include the following. I've added parry values next to the ones with strength. According to the OP 952 strength equals 1% parry, or 888 parry rating before DR, so that's what I'll be going by.


Just a quick comment: The conversion is 885 parry rating, not 888, despite what's given in the OP. In addition, the strength conversion is 951.158596, but the Stats buff needs to be accounted for. As long as you have Kings/MotW/etc, then that 951.158596 strength is actually 5% more, and thus worth 1.05% parry. Flipping that around, the pre-Kings amount of strength it takes to give 1% parry is 951.158596/1.05=905.8653295, or about 906.

#30 Charybdis

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:46 AM

Thank you for the number corrections Theck.

In other news from Tanking Damage Adjustment Hot Fixes - MMO-Champion BlueTracker, there are some fairly significant changes.

Holy Wrath now deals 100% more damage.
Avenger's Shield now deals 50% more damage.
Seal of Truth and Censure now deal 80% less damage for Protection Paladins only.

It's looking like AS and HW will be our heaviest-hitting abilities once those changes take place.

This also brings up another point: With SoI intended to be our seal for best survival, expertise, haste, and hit would seem to have added value since SoI is dependent on melee swings after all. Last we checked it was 15ppm, so hitting more often would increase the procs.

Finally, on Patch 5.0.5 Hotfixes - MMO-Champion BlueTracker Blizz has changed Symbiosis so that tanks no longer get a tanking cooldown from it. Wrath is replacing Barkskin for us. It might have use in niche cases where we're stuck at range with a target and have AS and J on CD but that's about it.

#31 Wrathblood

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:13 PM

I wondered what was going on last night. We were doing Stone Guards and my co-tank was having incredible problems hanging onto the dog he taunted off me. My eyes just about bugged out when I saw that Censure was ticking harder than CS hitting.

HW is going to hit like a truck now, easily surpassing HoW. Glyphing it still probably isn't worthwhile (less than 1% overall dps increase), but it depends on your alternatives. If Phase 3 of Feng or Gara'jal's Berserk are causing problems, it might not be a bad option if you're already sporting Alabaster Shield and Focused Shield.

In other fun, I did some testing and Glyph of the Battle Healer is looking interesting. It appears to proc off everything SoI procs from (auto-attack, ShoR, CS, HotR though BH also procs off the Holy Nova part while SoI doesn't). I was not able to test HoW, though. Does anyone know if SoI/Glyph of BH proc off HoW?

#32 Ronark

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:23 AM

HoW is classified as a Ranged attack that deals Magical damage, so it is unlikely to proc BH.

#33 Gloryrider

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:22 AM

Quick question: Sacred shield haste breakpoints. They're supposed to exist and with the haste now already a valuable stat it might be worth going for the first or second breakpoint. If anyone can figure out the ratings required in a raid that would be nice.
Same goes for Eternal flame, although I don't see myself using that anywhere soon.

And Censure hitting so hard, is that a bug? Or is it just scaling so well with the high vengeance levels we get at raids?

#34 MBar

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:27 AM

After the blue post yesterday, I decided to use SoI for our Stone Guards attempts. During our kill, I did 22k HPS (20% overheal), which was quite a bit more than I was expecting. The breakdown of the healing was like this (rough numbers):

Seal of Insight: 35%
Sacred Shield: 35%
Word of Glory: 20%
Stay of Execution: 10%

(I was using the Battle Healer glyph, 90% of my healing done was to myself as I was offtank.)

I've not got a log of my kill, but I found this on WoL:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Howly there has similar numbers to what I did. His SoI in fact did more healing than Sacred Shield.

The reason for posting is that judging from the numbers last night, SoI does easily comparable healing to Sacred Shield. I was very surprised to see just how much healing it does, and am now trying to understand the trade-off made with the DPS loss of not using SoT. SoI certainly is looking pretty great currently. :)

If SoT and Censure are typically 25-30% of our DPS, are we talking about potentially trading about 30% of our DPS for maybe 40% more personal healing with SoI?

#35 thedopefishlives

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:46 PM

After the blue post yesterday, I decided to use SoI for our Stone Guards attempts. During our kill, I did 22k HPS (20% overheal), which was quite a bit more than I was expecting. The breakdown of the healing was like this (rough numbers):

Seal of Insight: 35%
Sacred Shield: 35%
Word of Glory: 20%
Stay of Execution: 10%

(I was using the Battle Healer glyph, 90% of my healing done was to myself as I was offtank.)

I've not got a log of my kill, but I found this on WoL:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Howly there has similar numbers to what I did. His SoI in fact did more healing than Sacred Shield.

The reason for posting is that judging from the numbers last night, SoI does easily comparable healing to Sacred Shield. I was very surprised to see just how much healing it does, and am now trying to understand the trade-off made with the DPS loss of not using SoT. SoI certainly is looking pretty great currently. :)

If SoT and Censure are typically 25-30% of our DPS, are we talking about potentially trading about 30% of our DPS for maybe 40% more personal healing with SoI?


On our attempts on Stone Guard Tuesday night, my experience was similar to yours, except SoI was clearly above Sacred Shield on our cleanest pull. Over 50% of my incoming heals came from myself, primarily with SoI, SS, and WoG, all of which were less than 10% overheal. I'm definitely inclined to think that in cases where threat/tank damage output are not strict requirements, SoI is going to be effectively mandatory to prevent overstressing your healers, regardless of the DPS potential. Doubly so now that SoT/Censure have been nerfed heavily for Prot.

#36 Charybdis

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:13 PM

Quick question: Sacred shield haste breakpoints. They're supposed to exist and with the haste now already a valuable stat it might be worth going for the first or second breakpoint. If anyone can figure out the ratings required in a raid that would be nice.
Same goes for Eternal flame, although I don't see myself using that anywhere soon.

And Censure hitting so hard, is that a bug? Or is it just scaling so well with the high vengeance levels we get at raids?


Stacking haste only to get to a SS breakpoint wouldn't be worth it for Prot. If someone chose to stack haste after attaining expertise and hit hard caps then they might reach the breakpoint but it would be incidental (not to mention difficult since raids generally wouldn't give the tank haste gear in the first place.)

The math for EF suggests it isn't worth the uptime loss on SotR to maintain the HoT.

Blizz already posted that they felt prot was doing too much damage with Seal of Truth. If it's still dealing a lot of damage they either haven't done the hotfix yet or they screwed up on applying it and will fix it when they can.

#37 Wrathblood

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:55 PM

The Censure hot fix went in yesterday, so its already fix. Censure is back down where its supposed to be.

As an update, I've been thinking about Theck's big new stuff on Exp/Mastery/Haste, and its occurred to me that it should have been obvious that hard-capping Exp would be a huge boost to damage smoothing, and its simpler than looking at 3-swing cycles vs 6-swing cycles or whatever. I'm kicking myself for having not seen this.

Ok, ignoring pooling HoPo for a second, think about your rotation. During your normal rotation, if run perfectly, the longest time you go without ShoR being up is 4.5 seconds. However, if on the third set of CS's in your rotation (the part where you don't get a J between the CS's. CS - X - X - CS - J) either CS is parried (because you're only soft-capping Exp) then there isn't another J to save you anytime soon. Your *best* case scenario jumps all the way up to 9 seconds, and if you're really unlucky and 2 of the 3 CS's don't land, you're up to 12 seconds when the next J comes through.

By failing to Hard cap Exp, you run the risk of periodically doubling (from 4.5 seconds to 9 seconds) the amount of time during which you don't have ShoR up. Sure, you might get lucky and Avoid or Block some of the hits that come through, but then again you might not. That's where the bulk of those 80% and 90% spike events come from, and that's why Hard-capping Exp is amazing for stopping them.

And those events will happen pretty often if you're merely soft-capped. Every single time that chunk of the rotation comes around, if you're sitting at exactly 7.5% Exp, there's about a 15% chance (0.925*0.925) that one of those two CS's will get parried and you'll be exposed for 9 seconds instead of 4.5.

With this in mind, I'll be rewriting the OP a bit, encouraging folks to first cap Hit, then hard cap Exp before stacking anything else. After that, I'm a bit on the fence as there are a few options:

- Mastery does a nice job of smoothing incoming damage, but with the tops chopped off the spikes already, do we really need the additional smoothing?

- Haste is almost as good as Mastery while also kicking in a fair amount of additional DPS and tank dps is pretty useful these days.

- Avoidance? With the tops of the spikes dealt with, perhaps Avoidance's damage reduction to variability trade-off isn't as unattractive as it used to be.

I'm not yet sure where to go on these yet.

#38 Charybdis

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:50 PM

If I might make a recommendation, don't absolutely recommend one setup over another after capping accuracy. List the pros and cons and tell the readers to make their own choices based on what they feel will work best for them and their group, because that's what it will really come down to. Just make a note on haste saying such gear probably won't go to the tank first because chances are people haven't yet been educated on haste's value for Prot, and that it puts the tank in direct competition with DPS.

I don't play at the moment, but based on how gearing typically goes capping the accuracy stats then having a mix of avoidance and mastery is the most likely gear setup that will happen at the start. If the person's off spec is Ret then there will tend to be overlap since everything but crit is useful to Prot too (including gems).

#39 pewsey

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:15 PM

A consideration to recommendations may well be the group and in particular the healer composition you're running with. I've been speaking with our newly created Monk healer (who has been a druid, priest and paladin raider) who says "I don't have any great tools for dealing with spike damage, but my throughput is fantastic". This may be a valuable consideration, especially for 10 mans. Besides, who doesn't like making healers happy?
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#40 Theck

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:45 AM

HoW is classified as a Ranged attack that deals Magical damage, so it is unlikely to proc BH.


We've already determined what procs GoBH over at MT:
Melee
CS
HotR (phys)
HotR (nova)
SotR

That's it. It's notable that every target hit by HotR procs it, and it's 100% proc rate. So if you hit 3 targets with HotR, you get 4 BH procs. I already have sims showing it to be about ~5k HPS in a single-target raid situation, potentially much more in an AoE situation.

My sims also have the AS/HW/Censure/SoT changes implemented. I haven't gotten them all posted on MT yet, but I should be able to finish that up tomorrow morning/afternoon. For completeness, here's the short version I posted on MT:

I have results, but it's too late for me to start posting them now. I should be able to get the bulk of them posted tomorrow though.

Short version: SoT is still better single-target than SoR. My initial estimates were correct, SoT now does between 3k and 4k damage at 100k Vengeance AP. SoI is still about 17k healing.

To give you some numbers to play with, here's a representative queue (which is also the highest-damage queue I've simmed so far):

7.50% hit, 7.50% exp, SoT
|    |                                       |    DPS |   SHPS |    DPS |   SHPS | SS/EF | Empty |        |
| Q# | Priority                              | V=100k | V=100k |  V=50k |  V=50k |   Up% |  GCD% |  HPG/s |
| 15 | CS>J>AS>Cons>ES>HW>SotR               |  93100 |      0 |  57165 |      0 |   0.0 |   6.1 | 0.3948 |

7.50% hit, 7.50% exp, SoI
| 15 | CS>J>AS>Cons>ES>HW>SotR               |  89615 |  16885 |  55014 |   9920 |   0.0 |   6.1 | 0.3948 |

7.50% hit, 7.50% exp, SoR
| 15 | CS>J>AS>Cons>ES>HW>SotR               |  91254 |      0 |  56151 |      0 |   0.0 |   6.1 | 0.3948 |
As you can see, SoT is about 3500 damage up on SoI and 1850 damage ahead of SoR. I suspect that the transition from SoT to SoR will be 3 targets based on the following logic: SoR is (91254-89615)=1639 DPS for a single target, and should scale linearly. So adding a second target only gives it an additional 1639 DPS, which isn't enough to catch up to SoT (which was 1850 DPS ahead). That's assuming you can't stack Censure on both targets, which isn't necessarily true. Rule of thumb will probably be that SoT/Censure will be ahead for 3-4 targets if you can keep Censure rolling on all of them, but beyond that it will likely fall behind no matter what.

If you scroll up, you'll see that queue #15 was doing 96.3k DPS before the patch, and there were tweaks we could make to push that up to 96.5k. So we've lost about 3k DPS from this change if we stick with SoT. Note, however, that with HW being buffed so much it should take precedence over Cons against a single target. I need to program in a few more queues to see what our new "max DPS" rotation is. It's probably CS>J>AS>HW>Cons>ES>SotR, but ES might move around a bit in there.

Glyph of the Battle Healer is around 5200 healing per second to a nearby target. I tanked some heroics tonight using SoI and GoBH, and it did a reasonably good amount of healing. It's hard to say though, because I was running with a resto druid, so I was probably just sniping his HoTs.



I've run some sims with different queues as well, and to summarize: our rotations got a little more complicated. In general, CS>J>AS>HW>Cons is now the strongest "default" queue that maximizes HPG and then DPS. AS>CS>J>HW>Cons is actually a DPS upgrade from CS>J>AS>HW>Cons at the cost of HP gen. I don't have numbers handy right now, but it was a few thousand DPS iirc. Like I said, I'll have full details posted by tomorrow for us to chew over.

Also note that the Final Wrath glyph just got a lot stronger. It's something like 8k DPS during execute now, provided you bump Holy Wrath to the top of the queue (HW>HoW>CS>J>AS>Cons).


Stacking haste only to get to a SS breakpoint wouldn't be worth it for Prot. If someone chose to stack haste after attaining expertise and hit hard caps then they might reach the breakpoint but it would be incidental (not to mention difficult since raids generally wouldn't give the tank haste gear in the first place.)

Yes, but: don't forget that SoI grants 10% spell haste, which affects SS. Using SoI alone gets you another tick (even without the 5% haste raid buff, which it's multiplicative with - also note that it's multiplicative with your haste rating, but that's accounted for in your character sheet haste). Determining when you get new ticks is rather straightforward:

decimalHaste=(1+charSheetHaste/100)*1.05 = 1+netDecimalHaste
TickDuration=6/decimalHaste
NumTicks=round(30/TickDuration) = round(5*decimalHaste) = round(5+5*netDecimalHaste)

You should get new ticks when the argument to round() becomes 5.50, 6.50, 7.50, which occur at at 10%, 30%, and 50% haste (after raid buffs) or 9.524%, 28.572%, and 47.620% (rounding up just to be safe).

It's unlikely we'll reach 30% with or without SoI, I think, at least not until later tiers (8500 or 12750 haste rating). But if someone were using SoT, the 10% breakpoint would probably be reachable (4250).

With this in mind, I'll be rewriting the OP a bit, encouraging folks to first cap Hit, then hard cap Exp before stacking anything else. After that, I'm a bit on the fence as there are a few options:

- Mastery does a nice job of smoothing incoming damage, but with the tops chopped off the spikes already, do we really need the additional smoothing?

- Haste is almost as good as Mastery while also kicking in a fair amount of additional DPS and tank dps is pretty useful these days.

- Avoidance? With the tops of the spikes dealt with, perhaps Avoidance's damage reduction to variability trade-off isn't as unattractive as it used to be.

I'm not yet sure where to go on these yet.

You'll have your answer tomorrow. :)




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