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[Prot] 5.0 - I'm Sexy and I Know it


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#41 Wrathblood

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 03:15 AM

That's terrific, Theck. I'm starting to write up a bit on DPS as its pretty clear its going to matter.

Pewsey & Charybdis,

Oh, certainly. I'm really not a big one for telling people what to do, especially since everyone's situation can be quite different. My thinking at this point, if Theck's numbers on Avoidance turn out the way I suspect they will, is to stick with the three gearing categories (though I might rename them) each of which has pros and cons which I'll lay out. What they'll have in common is that you'll want to cap Hit and, for at least two of them, hard cap Exp before starting on other stats.

#42 Savius

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:05 PM

Is there any circumstance when spamming WoG would be better than spending most of the HoPo on SoTr?
I was thinking that we'd always want to increase the uptime of SoTr buff and only use WoG after large, predictable hits. But I see on WoL lots of paladin tanks from top guilds using quite a lot of WoG, even EF.

For instance, in 10m, the tank of the lonely stoneguard. Last night he was consistently around 50% health, he had one healer assigned to him that was also helping with the raid. What should he spend his HoPo on (totally ignoring tank's dmg done)? I'd say SoTr but it's just a hunch not backed by any numbers.

Of course, when there are more healers assigned on the tank, the dmg reduction should win by miles. But what about single healer or even a part time healer?

Which of those scale better with incoming dmg and by how much?
Is there a dtps breakpoint when the other one becomes better?

#43 Theck

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:20 PM

Damage Smoothing Follow-Up, containing the answers Wrathblood was asking for regarding what to do after expertise hard-cap.

Is there any circumstance when spamming WoG would be better than spending most of the HoPo on SoTr?

Not generally. WoG is a (5538+0.49*SP) heal per holy power, which is ~16.5k+0.735*AP. Assuming 40k base AP, that's ~40k+0.735*VAP, and since Vengeance AP is VAP=0.4*DTPS, WoG's average heal size should be
~40k+0.3*DTPS

Note that I've rounded up in a few places in that calculation to fudge the effects of crits.

SotR mitigates (30+mastery)% of DTPS for 3 seconds, or (0.3+decimalMastery)*DTPS*3 total damage prevented. A good estimate is 15% mastery, which is 3*0.45*DTPS=1.35*DTPS

Setting those two equal to one another, your DTPS would have to be 40k or less to make WoG heal for more than SotR mitigates. Increasing mastery drops this value even further. At the base 8% mastery, it would be a ~48k threshold, still fairly far below what a boss should be dishing out (even at 20k Vengeance AP, you're looking at 50k incoming DTPS).

#44 Nairobi the Kenyan

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:52 PM

Perhaps not feasible at this current moment with raids only just starting, but I've got a pondering about SoI/BH and raid comp going forward;

Given that SoT is now down to a 4k DPS seal (using Theck's maths above @100k V), am I understanding that running SoI yields ~17k HPS on me, plus ~5-6k RHPS through BH? AND gives an extra tick of SS standalone? All at the cost of 4k dps from SoT?

If that's the case, it seems like the decision is an easy one to use SoI for most anything progression. But with all of the talk about tank DPS, especially with its synergy given haste gearing, I can't help but feel like the choice isn't as clear as it seems.

Anyhow, my original question is given the use of SoI/BH, and the liberal use of LH, could we theoretically replace a raid/melee healer in favor of another DPS at some point (before content is trivial of course)? Our loss of seal DPS would be made up for in spades, I'd assume. I saw this in our kill of the dogs on Tuesday, when my healing equaled the resto druids, and can't help but think that had they been DPS the fight may have been smoother.

At any rate, so far it has nearly entirely eliminated the need for a healer in 5man content, so I'm curious if that can be rolled up to 10man raiding at some point/gear level.

#45 Charybdis

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:23 PM

Evaluating whether a healer should go DPS (or vice versa) has always been a bit of a sticky point with raiding. This is made more interesting by how some healers and DPS can halfway fill both roles nowadays. It's important to chat with the healers and tanks and see how they felt about the fight. If any of them start saying they weren't challenged at all to stay alive or keep others alive, that's probably a good indicator that more DPS could be squeezed out.

#46 Nairobi the Kenyan

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:45 PM

Evaluating whether a healer should go DPS (or vice versa) has always been a bit of a sticky point with raiding. This is made more interesting by how some healers and DPS can halfway fill both roles nowadays. It's important to chat with the healers and tanks and see how they felt about the fight. If any of them start saying they weren't challenged at all to stay alive or keep others alive, that's probably a good indicator that more DPS could be squeezed out.


A valid point, and perhaps I am looking for a definitive yes or no in a sea of maybes, but I can't seem to justify using SoT anymore. Given the healing picked up (with GoBH) is ~4x the damage output sacrificed, it just feels like giving up too much for too little in return when using SoT now. Given, I am running mastery preferenced to haste, so perhaps increasing haste will make the choice less one sided if it truly does scale well with our output.

Don't get me wrong, as a long-time ret I am all for maximizing damage when possible and logistical within mechanics, but I feel like we could fill a niche as a passive raid- (or at least melee-) healer which would free up that extra DPS spot for a far better ROI. Even if our healing did not accomodate 2 healers, but allowed for our shamans to LB for mana or monks to SCK, I'd be interested to see which of those options allows for greater overall raid dps output.

I guess we'd need to know average values of heal-spec DPS abilities (plus benefits like SCK's heals, LB's mana return) and see if the allowance of those abilities would surpass personal DPS increases through the use of SoT throughout the fight.

I've only seen 5 of the 6 fights in MSV, but outside of Garajal there really isn't much that's a serious DPS race. Elegon sphere's I guess, but they are (or should be) dead before censure really has a meaningful effect. Everything else that has a moderate DPS check also seems to have heavy raid healing needed during that phase (Feng in phase 3, or 2 if he gets flame stacks for example), where it seems SoI would be more helpful to raid success.

Am I overlooking something that tips the scales in the favor of SoT?

#47 Charybdis

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:20 PM

I don't think the DPS/Healer tradeoffs have been fully quantified much less averaged yet. It'll be up to the individual players to know how to do that trade as well as the raid lead to take the pulse of the fight and ask for the tradeoff if players aren't already doing it. This includes using SoI vs SoT. Thanks to the nerf I'd expect other classes could pull off the DPS/Heal switch better than us, both in granularity and magnitude.

We have the problem of dealing with a GCD to switch too, while casters and the like can simply use different spells. I think this is enough of an argument to say we should probably stick with one seal throughout a fight unless we get a situation like phase transition where we can't effectively use anything else.

More haste doesn't seem like it would change the tradeoff between SoI and SoT. Attacking faster benefits both of them and because of how haste works I'd be surprised if the ratio didn't stay the same if haste was the only variable.

#48 Wrathblood

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 12:04 AM

Gearing section totally rewritten. Will be working on DPS section in a bit.

In a nutshell, our stat priority in general goes:

Hit (to cap) > Exp (to hard cap) > Mastery = Haste > Avoidance

The only real question is Mastery vs Haste. Both are about equally good at smoothing damage intake (in the context of being Hit and Exp capped, which means the peaks have already been cut off virtually all of your spikes) with the real question being which of their strengths is more useful to you.

- Mastery is slightly better at reducing damage taken overall. Also, in a situation where you can somehow pump up your effective ShoR % Mastery can really shine. Tank swaps being an obvious situation for this, but there are others. Tanking Will tonight, watching my health bounce up and down even with ShoR up, I slightly regretted stacking Haste instead of Mastery.

- Haste gives a significant boost to your outgoing DPS and tank DPS matters quite a bit more than it used to. My stacking Haste was pretty handy getting everything down in time on Elegon last night.

Avoidance, assuming you're Hit and Exp capped, isn't as bad as its been made out to be. Sure, its not as good as Mastery or Haste, but capping Hit and Expertise resolves most of its spiky-ness issues making it a productive stat. Avoidance is roughly between Mastery and Haste in terms of damage prevention but instead of having a situational Pro, it has the Con of slightly spikier damage than Mastery or Haste which is why its last.

So, you'd be avoiding gear with Avoidance and its your first choice to reforge to another stat, but in terms of evaluating gear, its really not that much worse than Mastery or Haste. If I had a piece of gear with Mastery/Hit and had the potential to pick up a half-tier upgrade with Mastery/Parry, I'd take the Mastery/Parry piece in a heartbeat.

#49 Mogurii

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:44 PM

I posted this question to Theck over on maintankadin, but I am curious what the rest of the community thinks about this:

I recently saw a post on maintankadin in the "What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?" thread by Kihra:

"» Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:24 am

"PsiVen wrote:
I noticed that it was VERY important how I timed my ShoR for the short facepunch phases"


Yeah, I think I underestimated just how much damage you can reduce if you play correctly instead of just punching the boss in the face with SotR whenever you can."

It got me thinking:

All of our simulations are assuming that we are using SotR at every possible interval, as soon as we are able. Let's say hypothetically, that we don't care about DPS as a tank and am only concerned with my overall damage intake to smooth and reduce the amount of damage I take and amount of healing I need.

Would pooling to 5 (but not wasting HoPo) and timing as many SotR's as possible to the actual swing (be it autoattack swing timer, or large physical damage attacks) decrease the damage we take even further and thus change our gearing strategies?


The reason I ask is mainly, I don't believe that it is Blizzards intention for us to be essentially gearing/reforging as a DPS would. I'm sure that they are 100% aware of the intricacies between our secondary stats and are just laughing at us knowing that we don't have a grip on this whole active mitigation thing yet (where good timing, maybe ie. skill) is what separates the damage intake of a good tank from a poor tank. Even our rotation just doesn't scream "choice". We gain HoPo, we spend it immediately. There isn't really any skill outside of can you remember our rotation, albeit more complicated than the past, to generate the most HoPo as possible. It all seems much more Ret than it should with these new active mitigation changes.

#50 Capstone

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:19 AM

Shield of the Righteous is off the GCD, so when you use it has little to no effect on the rest of your rotation. Clearly you won't sit on 5 HoPo, so pooling constantly doesn't actually change your uptime significantly over the length of the fight; it only gives you a bit more control over where that coverage is. It would not change your gearing strategy in regards to hit and expertise cap, although clever usage could make mastery stronger than haste if you manage to have ShoR up whenever it is going to give you the most damage reduction.

On another note, I find the haste/mastery gearing rather interesting, coupled with the fact that strength is roughly equivalent to parry; you could opt for strength enchants (and gems?) for a decent tank set that could put out a healthy amount of DPS. I would think that Dancing Steel would be a strong alternative to River's Song, for instance (1650 str for 12s at 1 PPM vs. 1750 dodge for 7s at 2 PPM).

#51 Nairobi the Kenyan

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 02:28 PM

I posted this question to Theck over on maintankadin, but I am curious what the rest of the community thinks about this:

All of our simulations are assuming that we are using SotR at every possible interval, as soon as we are able. Let's say hypothetically, that we don't care about DPS as a tank and am only concerned with my overall damage intake to smooth and reduce the amount of damage I take and amount of healing I need.

Would pooling to 5 (but not wasting HoPo) and timing as many SotR's as possible to the actual swing (be it autoattack swing timer, or large physical damage attacks) decrease the damage we take even further and thus change our gearing strategies?


I think you've got a good point on selective use of ShotR to get the most out of it vs. spamming it like it was TV. However, routine use of it (including the timing of ShotRs to coincide with boss swings) is going to give the same or more uptime than pooling HoPo and using it as a "cooldown" throughout the fight.

On that note, though, I'd like to comment that pooling DOES have a great time for use over spamming: tank swaps. Thinking of Feng and Garajal in particular here, but when the other tank gets 2-3 stacks (whatever your guild calls swaps for on Feng), I make sure I have 5 HoPo and a HPGenerator pooled, then taunt and ShotR 2x back to back to provide those 6 sec's of healer transition time. Same principle on Garajal when Banishment happens.

This is probably pretty obvious to a lot of people, but it def helps with allowing healers to wind-up their efficient heals during tank swaps and hopefully allow for more mana conservation by the healer corps.

#52 Charybdis

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:45 AM

When it comes to gemming, there's more to parry vs strength than just the avoidance value of each. The parry gem of course gives more avoidance, but the strength gem can do double time in Ret pieces and helps contribute a bit towards WoG healing and SS shielding. Compared to the numbers vengeance gives it probably won't be noticed that much, but the same can be said of the extra parry too. 320 parry is roughly .36% versus the .176% from 160 strength after Kings as well as increased damage and healing.

On pure prot pieces I'd probably be gemming expertise in my red slots. Depending on socket bonuses I can also see reforging out of expertise on items only to add it back via gems. With the latest bug concerning challenge mode gear scaling I'd also avoid reforging into expertise or hit if I was doing those runs.

Theck's simulations look like they cover swings pretty well, otherwise he wouldn't get such results from the 2-7 swing tests. For those who don't have a swing timer addon, Quartz is the most well known because it's been around since BC if I recall correctly.

#53 Theck

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:18 PM

Would pooling to 5 (but not wasting HoPo) and timing as many SotR's as possible to the actual swing (be it autoattack swing timer, or large physical damage attacks) decrease the damage we take even further and thus change our gearing strategies?


As I replied over at MT, this has no effect on the simulations. I'm using a 1.5-second boss swing timer, so SotR always covers exactly 2 attacks. It's essentially like simulating a player that is timing his casts to boss swings. The results would be slightly different for a player who does this poorly on a boss with a longer swing timer, but they should be about the same for a player that's carefully timing their casts.

Also, I still think you're giving Blizzard too much credit. :P They're good game designers, but I highly doubt their internal testing and design looks at the sort of spike metrics I worked up. I'm sure they look at spike damage to make sure no tank is severely at risk, because the 25% health buff is evidence of that design consideration. I think it's optimistic (at best) to assume that they thoroughly test each secondary stat to see how that metric changes. Especially given the number of classes/specs they have to design, it's unlikely they have time to do anything that thorough for individual classes.

#54 Bubbleøseven

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:49 AM

I believe I will be revered with Shado-pan this coming Tuesday. What is the opinion on the strength vs stam trinkets that I can buy for 1750 valor? I don't know which to buy.

#55 Wrathblood

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:36 AM

Stam is hard to quantify in that you need enough to not be burst down, after which its useless. Only you (and your healers) know where that level is.

Both are good. Our "core" tanking stats are Hit/Exp/Mastery/Haste so while STR isn't one, neither is STAM, yet both are useful stats for us. And the on-use for both (Haste and Mastery) are also quite good (though its probably worth noting that there are many situations in this tier in which you could really get a lot of leverage out of a Mastery on-use. Anytime you've got HA up, or going into a tank swap with 5 HoPo, etc. These are situations that make a big burst of Mastery very powerful).

Really it depends on your alternatives. In a universe in which I could only pick one of the two, I'd personally go with the STR one. Not so much because its better than the STAM one as because it would be the better fit for me. I've already got the Relic and all three Brewmaster tanking trinkets. While the VP trinket is certainly better than the Brewmaster ones and is probably roughly comparable to the Relic, I've already got an embarrassment of riches from which to choose for STAM trinkets.

So while adding the VP trinket would be a gain, for me it would be a small gain compared to, say, picking up the VP head from Shado-Pan, a slot at which I'm lacking.

#56 mrbreck

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 07:06 PM

One tiny correction:
Colossus actually absorbs 8,000 damage: Colossus - Spell - World of Warcraft

#57 cky71321

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:10 AM

With Windsong now proccing from nearly everything and boosted by your highest haste value, does this push the enchant past Colossus? With Seal of Insight active, you've also got an additional +10% spell haste to consider for how often it procs. While crit is worthless for survivability, haste and mastery are still very, very strong stats.

#58 Wrathblood

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 02:03 AM

This is an excellent point on something I've been remiss on correcting (the list is starting to pile up. Stupid dailies are taking way too much of my time).

For the record, Colossus kind of sucks. ~10k absorbs are trivial in current content and the proc rate isn't nearly high enough to make up for it. Windsong just keeps looking better and better, but River's Song and, surprisingly, Dancing Steel both look attractive on paper as well.

Colossus needs a buff to be considered among the serious options for tanking, but I'm not yet sure which of the other three will be the winner.

#59 apoptygma

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:19 AM

Just a quick clarification - Is CS only used in place of HotR due to the fact it does more damage? I mean by that if damage was not a consideration then a simplified rotation would be HotR - Fill - Fill - HotR ...

I can't help but wonder why blizz didn't just up the damage on HotR for prot to a place where CS sits and keep CS just for Ret.

#60 Brokenone

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:58 AM

Just a quick clarification - Is CS only used in place of HotR due to the fact it does more damage? I mean by that if damage was not a consideration then a simplified rotation would be HotR - Fill - Fill - HotR ...

I can't help but wonder why blizz didn't just up the damage on HotR for prot to a place where CS sits and keep CS just for Ret.


HotR breaks CC, and CS does not. This is crucial for challenge modes, if nothing else.




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