Jump to content


Photo

[Balance] Mists of Pandaria 5.4, Guide and Discussion


  • Please log in to reply
846 replies to this topic

#21 Hamlet

Hamlet

    Mike Tyson

  • • Guide Author
  • 11,540 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 02:32 PM

Does anyone have a good explanation with math of the Mooncat thing? I might not be too hard to work out a rough estimate, but someone just needs to tell me:
1) AP coefficients (or equivalently, normalization--however you guys think of it) of Rake, Mangle, FB (the only spells the Mooncat has). Similarly, what's Cat white DPS?
2) What are the actual Agi/hit buffs from HotW?

It's going to be a rough thing at best since I don't want to add a whole bunch of Cat stats to the entire workings of the sheet, but should be able to understand what's going just based on the above.

#22 Hamlet

Hamlet

    Mike Tyson

  • • Guide Author
  • 11,540 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:05 PM

More on secondary stats.
In the gear set in WC right now (~104k DPS, T14 bonus), the 8089 haste break adds about 400 DPS without DoC, about 1700 with. If I turn off T14 and drop haste to around the 5273 breakpoint, the breakpoint's worth about 1800 even without DoC (have to check on this difference at some point).

Since, in all other cases, haste comes in at around 0.3 DPS behind crit, you'd give up well over 1000 crit to reach a haste point even in the 400 DPS case (if that's even accurate), and it seems like you'd give up many thousands in other cases. In practice I think this means haste up to any accessible breakpoint is effectively the best secondary stat. I'm going to rewrite for now to account for that.

Furthermore, if you're always reforging haste and hit to certain levels, that means most excess stat points (such as excess hit) fall into the crit bucket. So excess hit is likely to actually be worth as much as crit, at least in the most common case, which in particular makes it better than half an Int. So it seems like the best summary of the stat priority will be:

Int >> haste (to breakpoint) > hit (to cap)* > crit = excess hit (reforged to crit) > half Int (gems) > haste > mastery

*hit cap vs. haste breakpoint is actually kind of weird since misses can mess with your Eclipse timing. But if you have just enough to points to hit one or the other, I'd probably pick the haste break and be slightly under hit until your next upgrade.

#23 Hamlet

Hamlet

    Mike Tyson

  • • Guide Author
  • 11,540 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:21 PM

Updated OP for above thoughts on secondary stats. Note that WC is currently undervaluing high haste breakpoints because it's firmly casting DoTs every Eclipse, which causes some unrealistic clipping. Right now I'm working under the assumption that you basically initially treat haste as the best secondary and then pare down to a breakpoint.

Tell me if you at least think the current version is clear though, this is all getting slightly confusing with both haste and hit to worry about. If it's clear and very close to optimal I will probably try to stop obsessing over it (which is what I wanted to avoid) until information is a little more settled in my head.

#24 Erdluf

Erdluf

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 960 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:22 PM

At the end of the OP (WrathCalcs discussion), it talks about number of points in a talent. That is obsolete.

Assuming the feral/HotW makes sense (and I don't know if it does), notes for a non-talented feral rotation:
  • Ferocious Bite damage varies from 25 to 50 energy. You only want to use it a 50 energy (or if it will kill your target anyway).
  • At high crit levels, you might want to FB at four combo points (needs research).
  • A cat rotation burns energy at 35-50 eps. You generate energy at 10 eps (in and out of form). When your energy is below 35 (meaning no cat move will work) do something else for a little bit (might be MF/SuF/Starsurge, might be Bear/Mangle/Lacerate/.../Mangle/Maul). The shifts will cost you some auto-attacks, but I'd be surprised if the specials in another form aren't a better option.
  • I know that untalented+ungeared (ironman experience), Pounce is a good use of energy. If that remains true when geared, Displacer Beast might have situational use.


#25 Hamlet

Hamlet

    Mike Tyson

  • • Guide Author
  • 11,540 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:27 PM

Fixed the first. Yeah, I'd thought about recasting DoTs. 4 GCD's if you go into Moonkin to do it, but still probably ideal. Will add at least a note for now.

#26 Narwhal6

Narwhal6

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 18 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:20 PM

Does anyone have a Pre-Raid BiS list? I know some classes are using Honor gear in their BiS list... are we one of those?

#27 Zenbu

Zenbu

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 19 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:59 PM

on your use trinket macros, you have /use moonfire. pretty sure its supposed to be /cast moonfire. Any new players might be confused by that. ^^

#28 Erdluf

Erdluf

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 960 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:54 PM

/use works for /cast and saves some macro space when you're pushing the macro character limit.

#29 Hamlet

Hamlet

    Mike Tyson

  • • Guide Author
  • 11,540 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:54 PM

Has anyone checked whether Feline Swiftness stacks with boot enchants?

#30 magojo

magojo

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 37 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 02:09 PM

It does, 108% with only boots, 115% without boots and FS and 124% (iirc) with both.

#31 Hamlet

Hamlet

    Mike Tyson

  • • Guide Author
  • 11,540 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 02:11 PM

Great thanks. Will delete line about using other boot enchants.

#32 nephyron

nephyron

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 70 posts

Posted 27 September 2012 - 07:31 PM

There's something that's confusing me:

Int >> haste (to breakpoint) > hit (to cap)* > crit = excess hit (reforged to crit) > half Int (gems) > haste > mastery

Do JC only gems fall under the half int gem category and full crit gem is better than a full int or int is still int >> crit ?

#33 Hamlet

Hamlet

    Mike Tyson

  • • Guide Author
  • 11,540 posts

Posted 27 September 2012 - 07:37 PM

For JC only gems, use Int. JC-only secondary stat gems don't get the 2:1 benefit found elsewhere on gems.

#34 Cdin

Cdin

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 75 posts

Posted 28 September 2012 - 03:42 PM

I made this point in the WrathCalcs thread a couple of weeks ago, but given this is the the primary location for Moonkin TheoryCrafting, I thought it should be a part of this discussion. Please pardon the duplication.

In the OP, Hamlet recommends HotW over NV. I assume that recommendation is based upon his results from WrathCalcs, and if so it's important to understand how WC values cooldowns.

WrathCalcs values cooldown abilities by multiplying the benefit by the uptime divided by the cooldown. For example, a simplified version of the calculation for Nature's Vigil looks like this: (20%*(30/180) = 3.333%). This minimizes the value of the ability since it assumes the lowest uptime possible if the ability is used on cooldown. However, these types of abilities are used at the beginning of the Cooldown, not the end. So, it is possible to have a significantly higher uptime in a fight then is used in WrathCalcs. For example, lets assume the fight is 4 minutes long. If I change the equation above the value changes to: (20%*(60/240) = 5.000%). This is significantly better then the minimum value that WC assumes.

The default settings in Simulation Craft use an average fight length of 7.5 minutes that varies by 20%. So the fights are between 6 and 9 minutes long. Therefore it uses a variety of uptimes to evaluate a cooldown talent like Nature's Vigil. Using the canned gear sets available in SimC, it values NV about ~1% better then HotW. It's not entirely fair to compare WC and SimC since they use different assumptions and such, but with all things considered I do think it's fair to say that WC and Hamlet's guide undervalues Nature's Vigil on the average.

So to properly evaluate which talent is better for a specific encounter you need to know two things.

1) Typical Fight Length
2) How many times can you use your CDs in that Length.

Regarding the first point, the important thing to remember is that your CDs have a much higher potential uptime in shorter fights then longer fights (ex: using the CDs twice in 4mins results in a higher uptime then using them 4 times in 10mins). So CDs are potentially much more powerful in short fights then longer fights.

Regarding the second point, it's important to remember that determining the number of times you can use your CDs in a fight is more difficult then dividing the fight length by 3. In reality, it is extremely unlikely that a moonkin would be able to use his cooldowns on cooldown all the time. Given how they stack and work with Eclipse, there will typically be some delay between when they come off cooldown and when they are used. So, in a 3.5 minute fight you can theoretically use your CDs twice, but in reality you are very unlikely to get the full benefit of that second set. Just keep in mind that the time between uses is going to be longer then 3 minutes.
www.GrayMatterWoW.blogspot.com - My Moonkin related Blog.

#35 zgollum

zgollum

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 28 September 2012 - 03:50 PM

Are there any plans to make WrathCalcs work with 64bit office?

#36 Hamlet

Hamlet

    Mike Tyson

  • • Guide Author
  • 11,540 posts

Posted 28 September 2012 - 04:58 PM

Are there any plans to make WrathCalcs work with 64bit office?


That's a Tecton thing--IIRC he fixed 64-bit issues people were having in Cata, so maybe as long as he knows something's up he can fix it here too whenever he next turns to the sheet.

#37 Tecton

Tecton

    Soda Popinski

  •  Patrons
  • 3,946 posts

Posted 28 September 2012 - 06:25 PM

The sheet should work, however armory import won't due to Microsoft not fully supporting Excel 64 bit. I'd advise everyone to use Excel 32 bit unless you're using gigabyte file size spreadsheets for this reason (you should have both if you have Excel 64, it comes with the installer for that too).

If there are problems with the sheet in general on 64 bit, drop me a PM or post in the Wrathcalcs thread and I'll see if I can resolve. It's possible the earlier fix didn't make the transition to the MoP version.

#38 Karepow

Karepow

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 25 posts

Posted 28 September 2012 - 09:43 PM

Anyone able to shed some light on which would be stronger between Mithril Wristwatch and Zen Alchemist Stone?

#39 Stommped

Stommped

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 127 posts

Posted 28 September 2012 - 11:16 PM

Don't forget to consider that there is a 170 expertise glove enchant to consider now. This gives spell hit so it would probably be better if you are just over a breakpoint given your previous stat values.

#40 Lazerdollarz

Lazerdollarz

    Moonkin Hatchling

  • Members
  • 91 posts

Posted 29 September 2012 - 03:01 AM

Can Renewal crit? I haven't seen it crit in over 30 casts with 13% crit, so my assumption is no, though I'm still not ruling out RNG.

In terms of raw healing done, one NS+HT is almost on par with Renewal (~75k + crit chance vs. ~100k in 5-man gear), but incurs half the cooldown length, so it equates to more total healing done. However, the instant HT cast is on the GCD while Renewal is not. If more survivability is necessary and you're out of other options it might be better to spec Nature's Swiftness even without Dream of Cenarius despite the minor DPS loss.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users