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[Ret 5.4 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Siege the Day


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#41 Fierss

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:21 PM

Possibly, but not by a landslide. Compare those to which are 1 iLevel lower.
74 more Str and 68 more secondary stats on the blue.

Also the PvP necessary to earn epic gloves is a non-negligible timesink. For those who have school or work, spending that time on reputations or Heroics to gear overall is probably the better option. Raid gear comes quickly enough for those who raid.


The PvP gloves have an extra socket. +80 str, +160 hit, +60 str bonus, giving them +86 str and +92 secondary stat, plus the bonus. After the JP/Honor gear hotfix, I have no clue if they will be better than the blue ones or not, but they are certainly better today, and are worth keeping an eye on.

#42 Gormal

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 04:28 AM

are available today.

#43 aylen86

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:04 AM

Wrong information, pls delete.

#44 Exemplar

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:57 PM

are available today.


Fierss, hadn't noticed the socket on the blue. It's possible post nerf the CS bonus at least pulls them even with 463 Heroic items. So they may still be an option.

If those epic Malevolent are available for Honor, then they clearly would win best pre-raid gloves by sheer iLevel even before baking in the 5% CS bonus. If they cost Conquest I wouldn't precisely call them pre-raid, as that level of PvP (beyond slow random BG slog, which is significant opportunity cost) is more an alternative path to raiding. They seem to beat LFR raid epics. Possibility of beating normal mode epics (unless tier gloves push you to a 2 or 4 piece bonus), based on the 5% CS.
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Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
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#45 Tobrexa

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 04:50 PM

Am I reading this wrong? Isn't the new bonus +10yards on judgement instead of the old +5% CS dmg?

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That here, by Spartan law, we lie.


#46 Fierss

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:02 PM

It is still 5% CS damage, both on armory and in game, for the 464 gloves (which have not yet been hotfixed down to 458).

Edit: No change after today's 1pm server restart.

#47 Podima

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:23 PM

It is still 5% CS damage, both on armory and in game, for the 464 gloves (which have not yet been hotfixed down to 458).


For reference:

Whether this will be changed to bring it in line with the noted Judgment range bonus on the 483 gloves (), we'll have to see. From a purely speculative standpoint, I could see this happening as the Judgment range bonus is definitely useful for PVP (gap-closer with the appropriate talent, or an easier time applying the slowing seal) without being a PVE power boost, which is their stated design goal for PVP items.

#48 bromli

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:09 PM

Perhaps this is intended, as all the other professions' perks are primary stats, are they not?


Unfortunately, this will leave JC in a worse spot than other crafting professions. Best case scenario, it's equal. In BiS gear, where 2 haste > 1 strength, JC falls behind.

#49 Balhale

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:40 PM

Except that most crafting professions have the same 320 strength bonus with the exceptions of JC (if you use haste), BS, Mining, Skinning, and Herbalism. None of Enchanting, Alchemy, Leatherworking or Inscription have more than 320 strength bonus. Tailoring has a proc ap which is at worst (ap slightly under 45% of strength in value and hit at roughly 70% of strength in value) slightly worse than the other professions to at best (ap roughly 45% of strength in value and crit at roughly 30%) slightly better than other professions by the same margin and Engineering has avg 320 bonus as well.

The only profession that JC will fall behind because of that reason is BS.

#50 Pdawg

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:22 PM

Except that most crafting professions have the same 320 strength bonus

I don't think you're looking at it correctly. I would agree with you only if we still used red +strength gems in our red sockets. Let's assume that you have 2 sockets in your gear and they're both red. If you're an Enchanter, you would gem with Fierce orange gems for 160 strength and 320 haste. You would then enchant your rings for +320 strength. Your total bonus from the two gems and your Enchanting profession bonus is 480 strength and 320 haste.

If you're a Jewelcrafter, you would need to use Bold Serpent's Eyes in your two sockets. These would net you 640 strength.

The difference between Enchanting and Jewelcrafting is that Enchanting gives you 320 haste instead of 160 strength. The haste (by your and Exemplar's calculations) should be superior.

#51 bg_sanata

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:51 PM

If Haste is twice as better then Str at BIS gear, why to put Bold Serpent's Eyes on sockets instead of Quick gems?

#52 Balhale

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:29 AM

Because the JC haste gems are only 480 haste vs 320 strength and haste isn't more than 2/3 as good as strength.

#53 Balhale

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:33 AM

I don't think you're looking at it correctly. I would agree with you only if we still used red +strength gems in our red sockets. Let's assume that you have 2 sockets in your gear and they're both red. If you're an Enchanter, you would gem with Fierce orange gems for 160 strength and 320 haste. You would then enchant your rings for +320 strength. Your total bonus from the two gems and your Enchanting profession bonus is 480 strength and 320 haste.

If you're a Jewelcrafter, you would need to use Bold Serpent's Eyes in your two sockets. These would net you 640 strength.

The difference between Enchanting and Jewelcrafting is that Enchanting gives you 320 haste instead of 160 strength. The haste (by your and Exemplar's calculations) should be superior.


That's actually a good point. So JC is equal at preraid levels and very slightly worse at T14H levels.

#54 MisterKisser

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 04:19 AM

The tooltip for templar's verdict says that it consumes 3 Holy Power to deal 275% weapon damage + 628... From every test that I've done, there is no damage increase from a 3 Holy Power TV, to a 5 Holy Power TV. The only advantage of the 5 holy power is that one can better minimize his "down time" in his rotation by utilizing the extra 2 HP spaces as "storage." Am I wrong in saying that there is no difference in damage from a 3 hp tv and a 5 hp tv?

#55 Balhale

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:18 AM

That is correct - 3HP TV and 5HP TV are equal damage.

#56 MisterKisser

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:29 AM

So, in Exemplar's : Inq > 5HP TV > ES > HoW > Exo > CS > Judge > 3-4HP TV (> SS)
Why is a 3/4 HP TV last in his rotation weight?

#57 Ronark

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:38 AM

So, in Exemplar's : Inq > 5HP TV > ES > HoW > Exo > CS > Judge > 3-4HP TV (> SS)
Why is a 3/4 HP TV last in his rotation weight?


This is due to opportunity cost of the TV, not the DPCT.

Using TV at 3 Holy Power instead of a HP generator delays subsequent TVs, and thus lowers TV's damage contribution.
Similarly, using a HP generator at 5 HP also delays further TVs because you are increasing the time between TVs (by putting the abilities on cooldown) but not contributing to the HP cost of the subsequent TVs (since the resource cap is at 5).

#58 bromli

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:50 AM

The only profession that JC will fall behind because of that reason is BS.



Jewelcrafting bonuses are equal to the amount of the JC-only gem minus the amount of the gem you would otherwise have used. If you would have used a 160 strength gem, and instead used a 320 strength gem, the bonus is 160 strength (times 2, for 2 gems, of course). If the gem you would have used is a 320 haste gem, due to it being better than 160 strength, and you instead used a 320 strength gem, the bonus is 320 str minus 320 haste. Since in BiS 320 haste > 160 str, the bonus is less than 160 str. Therefore, JC is worse than other professions.

Using the approximate dps values from the front page guide, in BiS haste = 2 dps, and str = 3.71 dps.

(320*3.71) - (320*2) = 1187.2 - 640 = 547.2 per gem, or 1094.4 dps overall.

Other professions give 320*3.71 = 1187.2 dps.

edit: Sorry, didn't see you had re-replied. I decided to leave the post up so that people can see the difference is in fact very small. I will not be dropping JC.

#59 bromli

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:58 AM

In the pre-MoP thread, at one point I had made some lengthy posts about prioritizing TV4 over judgment. They ended up being removed since I have a bad habit of never capitalizing anything. I'm not going to re-post everything, since it was quite long and not even conclusive.

What did come of it, however, was a response from Balhale indicating that sims do show a dps increase ~.2% for following this priority. (TV4>J>TV3)

I'm wondering why this isn't considered valid enough to be listed in the guide. There are many things we do for similar gains, and putting TV4 ahead of judgment seems very easy to me in practice.

Additionally, sims will not account for the true potential of this slightly different rotation, which is that this rotation is much less likely to build to 5 HoPo at all. This is advantageous for real situations, such as using a utility ability which is on the GCD, and for movement. Less clashes amount to real gains in real situations, and when it's a gain on sustained single target even without worrying about mechanics, I can't see why this wouldn't be viewed as proper/correct/whatever.

The case i was originally interested in was more specific, namely the situation where you have 4 holy power, judgment is available, and CS will be available in 1 GCD (thereby clashing with TV5 under the standard priority). I posted some rotation maps, simply outlining different situations global by global to see what happens. These all ignored procs, cooldowns, and execute. I have since gone in more depth into these rotation maps.

It seems, however, that the stipulation about CS being up in 1 GCD vs. 2 GCDs is unnecessary. This is supported by Balhale's post, and also by my rotation mapping.

In fact, ignoring cooldowns, execute range, and procs, you will NEVER get to 5 holy power on patchwerk.

I will spare everyone the gory details unless someone really wants to see them. (I get the sense that people are not really interested in digging through them, as it is time-consuming and sims are preferred.) I would gladly respond to a PM, or even post my work if others deem it necessary. If you want to see the early work and don't mind sentences that begin with lower-case letters, feel free to dig through the dung heap.

#60 Exemplar

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 01:33 PM

In the pre-MoP thread, at one point I had made some lengthy posts about prioritizing TV4 over judgment... Balhale indicating that sims do show a dps increase ~.2% for following this priority... I'm wondering why this isn't considered valid enough to be listed in the guide.


Pre-raid dungeon gear gets you to in the 40k range. 0.2% of 40k is 80 DPS. T14 Heroic gear can push you to around 80k. 0.2% of 80k is 160 DPS. An extra crit or two above average produces the same DPS. One or two less and it eats any potential gain. This is to what I refer when I talk about how easy things can hide in standard RNG variance.

Additionally, there is nothing bad or wrong about hitting 5 HP. While it's entirely possible that using TV at 4 HP may cause a few less conflicts and thus grant a couple empty GCD, it's not guaranteed and it doesn't much matter. Let's say you earn 120 HP over a fight. Whether you use them at 4 HP or 5, you still can only get a total of 40 TV/Inq. 5HP just strongly (strongly!) discourages you from using another HP generator. If you impose a 4HP rule, all you're doing is hitting the wall earlier (an arbitrary wall, at that).

Not sure what other 'many things' we do for such a marginal increase. I personally recommend at least 2-3% DPS increase before anyone tries to apply something non-standard. Even at that scale it can unfortunately be all too easily hidden within RNG variance from fight to fight. Haste vs Str gems is probably even less of a gain (at ratings in OP it's 46 DPS a gem), yet folks obsess. Since folks want that detail, I'll notate the OP with your priority as a possibility.

I'm pretty sure Balhale will agree simulations are not perfect. My spreadsheet and SimCraft are not an actual fight. Just because it looks better on paper does not mean it is actually superior - there's a margin of error even if our math is 100% accurate. 1% on paper could be 3% in a fight... or it could be negative 4%.

P.S. Ignoring cooldowns, execute, and procs is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

P.P.S. This is not an insult, just a commentary on human psychology. If text looks lazily or poorly written with incorrect spelling or grammar then people will assume the writer's math is similarly lazy or incorrect - whether or not that is true. Representation matters.


Edit:
Unrelated - Light's Hammer is an excellent talent for Stone Guard. You should always have 2 targets (which should be greater DPS than ES) and the additional healing is quite nice with folks probably in states of undergear.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."




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