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[Ret 5.4 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Siege the Day

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#941 Theck


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Posted 26 October 2013 - 04:51 PM

So I ran some sims and I think I found out a priority list that makes more sense to our actual rotation on live and is an DPS increase on simc also.


Just put your new APL into SimC, it was a DPS increase for the T16H profile as well. Should be live in 540-5, which hopefully will be built and released this weekend.

#942 Montoyal


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Posted 26 October 2013 - 08:55 PM

I honestly haven't tested with DP or HA.  I'll give it a go during the day to make sure everything makes sense. 


Edit: Welp I couldn't find anything to change. The only issue that I had when looking at the APL when using DP is that there seems to be an unavoidable scenario where you have both a DP and a DC proc and you don't really have a way to use one without wasting a possible proc from the other. Prioritizing the DC proc over the DP procs seemed to be better though. 

Edited by Montoyal, 27 October 2013 - 12:33 AM.

#943 Exemplar


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Posted 28 October 2013 - 12:26 PM

These cells are about templar verdict.!??
If i compare the cells "average hits post buffs/miti", i see the presence of SoL for templar verdict (G27 or H27) but not for Divine storm (G41 or H41).

Ah, you are talking about the passive bonus Sword of Light (not our Mastery bonus). As of last time I actually checked numbers on dummies, SoL wasn't impacting Divine Storm. It's entirely possible that has changed since I last tested a few patches ago, but just because something sounds like it ought to include a buff does not mean it actually does. Blizzard is often inconsistent in such mechanics, which is why I've always been careful to thoroughly test each attack until numbers generated in-game match what I calculate.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#944 Maegor


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Posted 28 October 2013 - 03:30 PM

After many more tweaks and comparisons, the magic wand is Thok's Tail Tip. The bonus damage on crits is what is raising the value of Crit.

No Thok: Haste > Mastery > Crit
Yes Thok: Haste > Crit > Mastery
Even at average of 4 targets Haste and Crit remain ahead of Mastery. There is no climbing miles away.

In T16 normal (no Warforged) up through T16 Heroic, I'm not really finding a point with Thok that Mastery is worthwhile. Even at 4 targets you get Haste > Crit > Mastery - and averaging 4 targets is not exactly common. You need a lot of targets and Heroic Warforged for Crit or Mastery to pass Haste.

Thok + Evil Eye are a powerful combination. In Heroic gear even against 4 targets they beat swapping either for Fusion-Fire's cleave.

Oh, unrelated thought I've had lately. At 5HP, you should put TierDS ahead of 5HP TV. This is because if you already have a proc waiting, a TV cannot generate one. So you'll want to dump proc, then HP, then move on.


I found this post interesting, but never really saw anybody take this up.  Most of the posts following this continue with mastery>crit due to consistency.  Exemplar, just wondering if you are using this?  Is there a grade of Thok's that makes this true (is it for all or just HcWF)?  Has anybody even tried this on live servers yet?

#945 Exemplar


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Posted 29 October 2013 - 12:18 PM

Exemplar, just wondering if you are using this?  Is there a grade of Thok's that makes this true (is it for all or just HcWF)?  Has anybody even tried this on live servers yet?

I don't have a Tail Tip - he doesn't want to drop trinkets for our guild. My spreadsheet shows Tail Tip puts Crit ahead of Mastery, and from what I'd seen of SimCraft modeling, their BiS lists with Tail Tip put Crit ahead of Mastery.

7%-8% (fully upgraded) more damage from every Crit is a non-negligible change. Mastery is often in the 5-10% better than Crit range, so a swing of 8% can cross an inflection point.

It really depends on the entire gear situation. And, as has been mentioned, Mastery still scales faster for AOE purposes.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#946 Montoyal


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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:14 PM

I'm suspecting that the issue with stat weights from the BiS profile is that the base crit from the pieces is incredibly low. I've experienced this with my own gear. I have two pieces with base crit that I usually would reforge to mastery, when I do weight my stats with both these pieces being reforged to mastery my weights favor crit. If I choose to not reforge these two pieces and keep the crit, simc wieghts mastery over crit again.


What I simmed was something along these lines:


Set 1 Crit > Mastery
Mastery: 54.30% ( 9812)
Crit: 14.68% (4598)


Set 2 Mastery > Crit

Mastery: 50.46% (8565)

Crit: 16.76% (5845)


I don't have thok's tail tip though but I would guess that would only increase crit's value a bit over mastery but I'm not entirely convinced that it would be enough to make it completly superior. 

Edited by Montoyal, 30 October 2013 - 07:21 PM.

#947 cremor


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Posted 30 October 2013 - 06:42 AM

I noticed the same when I tried to find a better BiS gear list for the T16H profile in SimC. It always switches back and forth when changing the stat priority to build the gear list.


Seems like we have to actually try both reforging priorities to find the better one for our current gear. Luckily this is quite easy with the help of Ask Mr. Robot, at least if you know the current bugs in its SimC export ;) (legendary cloak and engineering hands addon)

Edited by cremor, 30 October 2013 - 06:42 AM.

#948 Exemplar


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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:49 PM

Please see new "Do Not Ask" questions at top of OP. Most importantly:
Stat weights/priority. It depends on YOUR gear. Use one of the modeling tools and test for yourself.

Having this question arise every third page with the same answer can drown out fledgling discussions on other, newer Ret-related topics.  I'm as complicit as anyone else by trying to answer it repeatedly, so I hope no one feels targeted.

I've also added a "Do Not Ask" regarding ability priority. To make sure this is fully clarified, this is specifically directed towards "What is the best" questions. It is not meant to stifle the excellent posts (statements) that crop up as people test new possibilities in SimCraft. I encourage folks to continue to test possibilities and present them before the community along with your results data.
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Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#949 Kwayver


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Posted 15 November 2013 - 01:15 AM

some comments for the article:


Socket Bracer and Socket Gloves, allow two additional gems. Naturally you want to use or . Tied with Enchanting, Engineering, Inscription, and Jewelcrafting at 320 Str.


If 640 Haste > 320 Str then BS could edge out other professions.

Given the discussions over the past few months, would it be save to say that the 640 haste is the way to go here, rather than it still be in question?


which provides Sockets for Tinker's Gears makes this an excellent starter helm. This is obsoleted by the next tier.

Synapse Springs now boosts Str by 1920 for 10 seconds every minute. This locks out trinket cooldowns for 10 seconds. Excellent boost but cannot be stacked with trinkets during CD phases, requiring some CD juggling. Averages to 320 Str boost, the equivalent of Blacksmithing, Inscription, and Jewelcrafting.


It may be worth mentioning other Tinkers such as rocket boosts and goblin glider here. They provide some valuable mechanics for certain fights (fight which involve fall damage and fast movement phases).


Also may be worth mentioning the Engineer helm, while obselete for top end raids, appears to be a BiS for Challenge mode dungeons due to the mass amount of stats provided by the gears.



Will not be covered as the present intent is to make Minor Glyphs cosmetic or similar non-play-impacting changes. Example: changing Judgment graphic from a Hammer to an Axe.

Realistically there is only 1 glyph that would provide utility to a fight: Falling avenger.

Some fights use fall damage as a mechanic (Iron Jug) so falling avenger can help with increased survivability at times.


Hasty hearth assists with your repair bill. If you see an obvious wipe incoming you can bubble-hearth before suffering the death, thus losing your buffs and causing gear dmg. I recommend setting hearth to 2moon/7star so you can fly right back into raid with ease.


All damaging attacks do 200% damage when they Crit (previously default was 150% for spells), before Metagem modifier. Only change to Ret paladins from this is Exorcism.

might need slight re-wording with respect to meta and thok's tail adjustments.

#950 Schneebör


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Posted 12 December 2013 - 07:01 AM

Hi :)
Sorry if its a dumb question, but I need to know something.
Why does simcraft priorities CS over judgment in my burst phase with avenging wrath?
For example: hammer -      CS     - hammer - TV - hammer -      CS      - hammer - TV ....
why not        hammer - judgment - hammer - TV - hammer - judgment - hammer - TV....
Sorry I am new. Judgment does more dmg on hit then cs. I can't explain it to me.
I tested it now with simcraft and its a slitly decrease in dps, still dont understand it. Why is it a decrease if judg is stronger then cs ? With my gear.

#951 Akawa


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Posted 12 December 2013 - 09:04 AM

The direct damage of Judgement might be higher than CS but CS procs our mastery and J doesn't. Go to a dummy and hit it with J and CS only and compare the J damage in your Skada with CS + Hand of Light.

#952 Teleros


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Posted 12 December 2013 - 02:40 PM

Crusader Strike's shorter CD may also be at work, as it means faster HP generation for more TVs.

Clear ether!

#953 Kwayver


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Posted 12 December 2013 - 11:12 PM

Crusader Strike's shorter CD may also be at work, as it means faster HP generation for more TVs.


During wings its CD doesnt matter, because the priority with SW becomes HoW-*thing*-HoW-TV- repeat to infinity.

Also the reason CS hits harder than judgement is it scales with wep damage, while judgement does not. The better your weapon, the bigger the margin.

#954 Pdawg


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Posted 12 December 2013 - 11:22 PM

Under AW with SW spec'ed, the difference in cooldowns of CS and Judgment is irrelevant.  Both are always up in the 4 ability cycle.  You only care about what does more damage for you in YOUR gear, CS + HoL or Judgment.

#955 Metasaigneur


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Posted 20 December 2013 - 02:49 PM

It could be added on op, that before pull you can get free 8 hp by using holy pvp set: 5 hp before pull, inq, 3 more and swap pve gear back on and start with full 5hp. Normal bs version should also work, so you can do this with little effort.



(4) Set: Casting Flash of Light grants 1 charge of Holy Power.

You simply need to equip the gear, cast FoL 8 times, and switch back to your ret gear. You never need to change specs so the Inquisition and 5 HP are not lost.



Drink to regain mana?



Was looking in OP this awesome tip, and also think it should be added in the "rotation" section.


I found best to pull with 50sec INQ and 4HP so ES does not conflict with either TV nor HoW.

4 HP because opener is then : HoW (5)>TV>HoW(1)>ES>HoW(2).... And fill in your T16DS procs asap in between HoWs


Create a gearset ignoring all slots but the 4 pvp pieces you have, minimizing errors (but not avoiding all of them if you're not carefull) from gear swap if you forgot to save "DPS" gearset after a new ring/neck and such.

Good way to not miss prepot and gear swap is a macro


/equipset DPS  <-- or whichever name you put, I don't think it's caps sensitive but still do it as precaution

/use potion of mogu power 

Edited by Metasaigneur, 20 December 2013 - 02:53 PM.

#956 aylen86


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Posted 20 December 2013 - 05:27 PM

You should judge for the physical damage taken debuff unless there is another person in your raid who does it. The speedbuff from LAotL as a gapcloser might be nice, too.

#957 DonTirri


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Posted 22 December 2013 - 02:14 PM

Hey. I tried looking up on the thread here, but didn't see a mention.


Anyway, I've noticed something about Thok's tail  and how it behaves with raid buffs that just might skew things a bit statweighwise.


*All math done with ilvl 553 Tail tip so 7% buff

I'm sitting at 37,58% haste (15972 rating) unbuffed, so I'm under the hastecap, right? No.

Once I get the attack speed buff (which oughta be 10%), my Haste suddenly goes to 51,34% (using the table found in the OP, that's ~21819 rating). So instead of a 4250 rating boost, I get a 5847 rating boost (1597 more than I should, which is pretty close to 4250 rating + 1527 aka 7% off of 21819, accounting for undisplayed decimal variance)


And with Mastery, BoM gives me a 3210 (9,90%) rating buff instead of the 3000 (9,25%) displayed. 


What I'm trying to get to is that while most of the Thok-discussion has been crit-related, and even though I've played around with SimCraft a bit, I'm no expert with it so I'm wondering, is the sim and/or are people taking Thok's screwvy synergy with our ratings/percentages into account when determining and calculating stat weights for themselves, not to mention how with Thok's the rating to percentage values might fluctuate from the one's used?


Admittably I am far from a fluent theorycrafter and what I've done is pure napkin math, but it's something that might affect such things.

#958 Charybdis


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Posted 22 December 2013 - 04:54 PM

For future reference within this thread since it has not been covered, as Don above found out, the melee attack speed buff is just that: Attack speed.  It is NOT haste, nor melee haste.  The easiest way to test that is to look at the cooldown of exorcism or judgment before and after having the attack speed buff given out.  They'll change if indeed the attack speed buff is (melee) haste.


Not only is it not being a haste buff the reason it hasn't been talked about with Thok's, that's also the reason it has never been a consideration during the entire expansion for prot or ret paladins getting to 50% haste to cap GCDs at 1 second.

Edited by Charybdis, 22 December 2013 - 05:06 PM.

#959 Thels


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Posted 22 December 2013 - 04:58 PM

Raid buffs do not affect our Haste softcap, since our Haste softcap is based on actual Haste, whereas the raid buffs affect meleehaste and spellhaste (neither of which is the same thing as actual Haste). Seal of Insight also affects spellhaste, and not actual Haste.


(Bloodlust/Heroism/Timewarp DOES affect actual Haste, as does the Kafa Press, so if you're already close to 50%, and are affected by both, your rotation will probably change for the duration of these effects.)


Since static raid buffs don't affect actual Haste, their interaction with Thok's Tail Tip is not important for the Haste softcap to reach.


EDIT: Charybdis beat me to it.

Edited by Thels, 22 December 2013 - 05:01 PM.

#960 Pulout


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Posted 06 January 2014 - 05:48 PM

I tried searching the thread, but I couldn't find any matches. Does anyone else have the issue with Evil Eye not reducing the cd of your abilities by the amount stated? It says 45% for an upgraded warforged trinket, but it's only reducing cds by approximately 30-31% as Avenging Wrath is now a 1.38 cd instead of 1.1.  I tried opening tickets for clarification from a GM, but I haven't received any real response yet as they just close the ticket with a generic response.

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