Jump to content


Photo

[Ret 5.4 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Siege the Day


  • Please log in to reply
980 replies to this topic

#961 Teleros

Teleros

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 111 posts

Posted 07 January 2014 - 12:55 PM

Pulout - it's based on cooldown recovery time or somesuch, not just the bare-bones cooldown:

 

For example, a flat 42% cooldown reduction (ie normal 2/2 upgraded) should make Hand of Freedom (25sec CD) into a 14.5sec CD. However, instead we get a 17.6sec CD. Why?

The actual maths is like so:

1-(1/1.trinket%) = % CD reduction

Eg:

1 - (1/1.42) = 29.5775% CD reduction.

29.5775% CD reduction for Hand of Freedom does of course equal 17.6 seconds.

An alternative way to work it out is to do (25/142)*100, but I want to make sure the maths is crystal-clear for everyone.

 

A further example, using a 2/2 upgraded heroic Warforged Evil Eye:

1 - (1/1.5) = 0.333....% CD reduction = 1min 20sec CD on wings, 20sec CD on Divine Protection, or 2min CD on Guardian of Ancient Kings.

 
 
 
Hope that helps :) .

Clear ether!


#962 Exemplar

Exemplar

    The One-Eyed Man

  • • Guide Author
  • 1,809 posts

Posted 07 January 2014 - 01:05 PM

Pulout - it's based on cooldown recovery time or somesuch, not just the bare-bones cooldown:

 

The actual maths is like so:

1-(1/1.trinket%) = % CD reduction

Eg:

1 - (1/1.42) = 29.5775% CD reduction.

Good to know the functionality, thanks Teleros.

 

In short, CD Reduction functions like Haste.  100% CD Reduction would allow you to use a Cooldown twice as frequently (as opposed to infinitely with a CD of zero).  I'll toss that into the OP for reference.


Edited by Exemplar, 07 January 2014 - 01:05 PM.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#963 Stroggylos

Stroggylos

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 12 January 2014 - 10:54 PM

So been wonderin where to throw this hopefully it is not covered in previous posts although i kinda thourough checked them . Took advantage of christmas holidays and taken down quite some booze quantities and i got this idea : what if my latest 4set bonus worked too well with harsh words ? i mean what if i been hitting harsh words on every single holy power waiting for a 25% op div storm proc? First off i got quite frustrated to see that although i been smashing the dummie for hours i could not get a 25% proc chance working and stayed way lower. After that i got kinda bored to get into maths and see if it would work had the procc rate been 25% .

So is there anyone outthere to confirm if the set bonus is bugged for 1 or even 2  holy power harsh words and if it hadnt been would it worth the trouble of using it instead of tv  ? (throw a crit wall of maths  at me plz)



#964 Cloudio

Cloudio

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 28 posts

Posted 09 February 2014 - 10:20 PM

Using glyph of divine protection to soak on kalaxi hm aim spell; 4.725 m shared dmg with 5 other players ( approx 780k each ). My average damage taken from soaking is 700k.

s the glyph bugged ? and why aim spell is totally ignoring my armor ? 

 

http://www.worldoflo...x/spell/142950/

 

you can see in death, how much damage i am taking from aim spell '' called fire on wol , and it is not a 1.4 m dmg spell 



#965 Exemplar

Exemplar

    The One-Eyed Man

  • • Guide Author
  • 1,809 posts

Posted 10 February 2014 - 01:45 PM

Fire
 
Effect #2
School Damage (Physical)
Value: 1400000
Value: 3500000 - 25 Player
Value: 1890000 - 10 Player (Heroic)
Value: 4725000 - 25 Player (Heroic)
Value: 560000 - Looking For Raid
Value: 980000 - Flexible

 
1.4 Million is 10 player normal.  On your 25 normal the damage is 3.5 million.
 
Looking at your log your first group of 5 split 2891700 (and your Divine Protection expired just before you took the damage).
 
Your second group (of 8) took 3648469 (not sure why higher than 3.5 million, possibly overkill or absorbs glitch it).  Che took 590625, you took 472500 (which is 590625 * 80%).
 
As for Armour - I suspect it is not reducing the value... for a reason.  Let us look at your 6th hit (19:11:08:335).  5 targets were hit:
[19:11:08.335] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Omebagger 627987 (O: 128013)

[19:11:08.335] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Moyia 464522 (A: 480478)
[19:11:08.335] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Gouka 425250
[19:11:08.335] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Braan 472500
[19:11:08.335] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Kizax 689333 (O: 161167)

Total: 3449250 (including overkill and absorb)
 
Gouka and Braan obviously used damage reducers of some variety, but the total was still a hair under 3.5 million.  I would posit that damage reducers function, but do not reduce overall damage.  Anyone popping a damage reducer is increasing the damage the others will take.  There is a precedence for this function (Static Shock on Lei Shen, for example).

 

Recommendations:

No damage reducers from anyone.

Leverage absorbs (priest shields, Anti-magic Shell, etc).

More warm bodies per Aim (although Sonic Resonance splash already appears an issue for your group).  Or solo soak with Dispersion, Dark Bargain, Greater Invisibility, etc.


Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#966 Cloudio

Cloudio

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 28 posts

Posted 11 February 2014 - 02:18 PM

Logs were for 25 heroic, not a normal run so total damage is supposed to be 4725000. 

 

Anyone popping a damage reducer is increasing the damage the others will take.  There is a precedence for this function (Static Shock on Lei Shen, for example).

 

 

Just immunity spells will increase the damage on the party. 



#967 Pdawg

Pdawg

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 56 posts

Posted 12 February 2014 - 01:03 AM

Many special attacks ignore armor.  I don't know how to find out which ones do and which ones do not except through testing.  There is no "ignores armor" like flag that you can see on wowhead.  Fire definitely ignores armor though.

 

Fire and Glyph of Divine Protection appear to be working correctly in your log.  First Fire:

[18:49:38.449] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Omebagger 664269 (O: 91731)
[18:49:38.449] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Sicarrius 198450
[18:49:38.449] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Panboo Absorb (708750)
[18:49:38.449] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Braan Absorb (472500)
[18:49:38.449] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire transparant.png Cloud 725961 (O: 30039)

 

You got hit for 725961+30039=756000/0.8=945000*5=4725000, exactly like the tooltip says.  Second Fire:

[18:55:20.494] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Omebagger 475046 (O: 115579)
[18:55:20.494] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Moyia 464503 (A: 126122)
[18:55:20.494] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Panboo 139314 (A: 215061)
[18:55:20.494] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Fullthrottle 477262 (A: 113363)
[18:55:20.494] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Ché 590625
[18:55:20.494] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Gouka 265782
[18:55:20.494] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Braan 295312
[18:55:20.494] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire transparant.png Cloud 472500

 

You got hit for 472500/0.8=590625*8=4725000.  Again, exactly the expected amount of damage. Fourth Fire (you didn't get hit by the third):

[19:02:03.806] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Sicarrius 124031
[19:02:03.806] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Pular 247487 (A: 106888)
[19:02:03.806] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Braan 295313
[19:02:03.806] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Cloud 469732 (O: 120893)
[19:02:03.806] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Omebagger 472500
[19:02:03.806] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Gouka 442969
[19:02:03.806] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire Moyia 11210 (A: 579415)
[19:02:03.806] Hisek the Swarmkeeper Fire transparant.png Fyros 220599 (A: 370026)

 

469732+120893=590625*8=4725000.  It looks like you used DP too late and even though the game saw your cast, it didn't reduce your damage taken thanks to latency.  You may have noticed this before with other abilities like LoH, where you'll cast LoH and see it go on cooldown, and the game registered your cast but your target never received your heal and died anyway.

 

Looking at your average damage taken by the spell over the night isn't going to tell you much.  It's going to include cases where people messed up and you didn't have exactly 5 people in the Aim, as well as wipes where people just didn't bother standing in it.  The glyph does appear to be working correctly though.  One thing I noticed in your log is that your tanks have pathetic Weakened Blows uptime on Hisek, which definitely reduces the damage done by Fire.  You should definitely yell at your tanks to keep it up.  I hope they don't expect a ret to do it. :)  Timing Exorcism or TV with Glyph of Templar's Verdict will help your survivability as well.


Edited by Pdawg, 12 February 2014 - 01:04 AM.


#968 Randy47

Randy47

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 03 April 2014 - 06:09 PM

571 Ret Pally here. I run the 40% haste softcap and then mastery build. I have a question about DPS, although to be perfectly honest, DPS isn't an issue for me. I am generally the top DPS in my guild and I have am ranked top 75 on several heroic fights this tier on World of Logs.

 

My question is about strength, specifically gemming. Recently I have noticed that Simcraft has greatly begun to favor strength in my sims...to the point where when I import the weights into reforge applications they suggest that I go straight 160 STR in my red sockets. This caught me off guard. Should I ignore what SimC is telling me here?



#969 TerellinMisha

TerellinMisha

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 14 posts

Posted 04 April 2014 - 06:51 PM

I'm going to recommend you create a new profile with the updated weights that SimC is giving you, setting yourself up (perhaps in AMR and importing) and resimming that, so you can see what the DPS change would be if you did that.



#970 Podima

Podima

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 48 posts

Posted 04 April 2014 - 06:57 PM

I have a question about DPS, although to be perfectly honest, DPS isn't an issue for me. I am generally the top DPS in my guild and I have am ranked top 75 on several heroic fights this tier on World of Logs.

 

What does this information have to do with your actual question other than thinly veiled bragging?

 

If your DPS is truly that high, then surely you can either do exactly what TerellinMisha suggests (try out different sims and see what comes out of it) or you can afford to re-gem and whack a test dummy for 10 minutes to see what you end up with versus before.



#971 Thels

Thels

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 22 posts
  • LocationThe Netherlands

Posted 09 April 2014 - 03:20 PM

So been wonderin where to throw this hopefully it is not covered in previous posts although i kinda thourough checked them . Took advantage of christmas holidays and taken down quite some booze quantities and i got this idea : what if my latest 4set bonus worked too well with harsh words ? i mean what if i been hitting harsh words on every single holy power waiting for a 25% op div storm proc? First off i got quite frustrated to see that although i been smashing the dummie for hours i could not get a 25% proc chance working and stayed way lower. After that i got kinda bored to get into maths and see if it would work had the procc rate been 25% .

So is there anyone outthere to confirm if the set bonus is bugged for 1 or even 2  holy power harsh words and if it hadnt been would it worth the trouble of using it instead of tv  ? (throw a crit wall of maths  at me plz)

To my knowledge, the chance of the set proccing scales with the HoPo invested in the move, so a 3 HoPo move has a 25% chance, wheras a 1 or 2 HoPo move has a 8% or 16% chance.

 

This means that overall this is a clear DPS loss, as splitting HoPo up in different moves does not increase your procs, so there's no gain, while there are two losses. First, TV is simply better per point of HoPo than Harsh Words. Second, you're wasting more GCDs spending your HoPo.



#972 TerellinMisha

TerellinMisha

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 14 posts

Posted 09 April 2014 - 06:57 PM

The scaling mechanic you're referring to is for Divine Purpose. I do not believe there is any such scaling for the T16 4p, though as stated, it'd be a DPS loss regardless since Harsh Words does substantially less damage, even at 3 HoPo, than TV.



#973 Belatar

Belatar

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 23 posts

Posted 28 May 2014 - 10:27 AM

I read in some guide by a Ret Pally, that as soon as you have 4pc 

  1. you would only push haste to 40% (instead of 50 or even beyond) and
  2. that Divine Purpose becomes superior to Sanctified Wrath as well for single target

Unfortunately no rationale is given and my simc runs with my toon say otherwise. Can anyone argue for or against this with any reasonable math? Does ability lag come into play? Does TV become so strong with a certain amount of mastery (I would be able to push 70% if I go for it)?

 

Any comments / thoughts welcome, thanks,

Bela


Edited by Belatar, 28 May 2014 - 10:28 AM.


#974 Exemplar

Exemplar

    The One-Eyed Man

  • • Guide Author
  • 1,809 posts

Posted 28 May 2014 - 12:56 PM

Pushing Haste beyond 40% continues to grant improvement.  My tests have always shown even 100% Haste continues to show reasonable DPS increase over 99%.  That said, around the 40% mark you may begin to gain more from 1% additional Mastery or Crit rather than 1% Haste.  So if you had a choice of stats, Haste might no longer be your first pick.  Some people erroneously call this a softcap, when capping is nowhere involved.

 

Then again, Haste might still be your best stat.  Follow your Sim.

 

As for Divine Purpose, my tests do not show a random takes-a-GCD ability becoming superior at higher levels of Haste.  In SoO gear, we tend to have fewer free GCD, especially with extra DS proccing here or there, not more.  SW also benefits from Evil Eye - shorter CD on AW, which still lasts 30 seconds, means greater up-time, which means DPS boost.  Plus the standard 'on demand' vs 'random proc' comparison.

 

I suspect the DivPurp suggestion is anecdotal (they tested on a dummy and liked their results), rather than mathematical.  4 piece DS can proc DivPurp and DivPurp can proc 4 piece.  So you could occasionally get streaks of many TV/DS in some variety.  It is improbable, and if it did occur, could easily be during a movement/transition/can't-hit-boss timeframe (i.e. entirely lost).

 

I'll end with my usual caveat - it's always possible some specific set of gear shows unusual results on simulations and that a non-typical talent is ideal.  I continue to suggest folks run their own tests and follow personal results rather than blindly follow a generic guide.


Edited by Exemplar, 28 May 2014 - 12:56 PM.

  • Belatar likes this
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#975 Theck

Theck

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 299 posts

Posted 28 May 2014 - 04:02 PM

My tests have always shown even 100% Haste continues to show reasonable DPS increase over 99%.

 

I'm pretty much in agreement with everything else you said, but this particular piece seems suspect to me. A large portion of haste's value comes from compressing the rotation via Sanctity of Battle. That stops at 50% when you hit the 1.00-second GCD cap. Beyond that 50% point, haste gives you more auto-attacks, faster Censure ticks, and may allow for more uses of preferred fillers (because Sanctity of Battle still reduces cooldowns above 50%), but it does not compress the rotation or reduce the GCD.

 

I would think that above 50% haste, haste becomes a very low priority compared to mastery and crit simply on those grounds. Running a quick sim on the T16H profile with a "shirt=haxx,stats=10000haste" line added seems to confirm this:

 

ret_t16h_10000haste_scale_factors.png?at


Edited by Theck, 28 May 2014 - 04:04 PM.

  • Belatar likes this

#976 Icharispally

Icharispally

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 12 posts

Posted 07 June 2014 - 12:37 AM

i have a basic question that once i know the math, i can apply here forward.  I wanted to know how to calculate the increased damage based upon an increase in strength.

 

For example, when our trinkets proc and we get 15,000 strength, how much increase in DPS is that, so i know how to compare to Warrior of the Light, where we get a 5% damage increase.



#977 Teleros

Teleros

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 111 posts

Posted 07 June 2014 - 08:30 AM

Well ATM*, 1 Str = 2 AP, 2AP = 1SP, and 14AP = 1 weapon DPS. Hope that helps :) .

 

* WoD will change these calculations.


Clear ether!


#978 Icharispally

Icharispally

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 12 posts

Posted 08 June 2014 - 11:41 PM

great thx.  so if i am doing 350k DPS and i get a proc from 15,000 strength, that would equate to 30,000 AP  Dividing that by 14 gives me 2142.85 weapon DPS.  Multiply that by my weapon speed of 3.6 and i get 7714 net DPS increase.  Is that correct?

 

Comparing that to 5% increase from Warrior of the Light (350,000 x .05 = 17,500) would show that i get more than double the benefit from Warrior of the Light.


Edited by Icharispally, 09 June 2014 - 12:04 AM.


#979 Belatar

Belatar

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 23 posts

Posted 09 June 2014 - 11:49 AM

It might be wiser, more accurate and faster to just simulate your toon in SimC with manually changing the strength values. There is a little more to strength than just weapon dps (the spellpower, which increases spelldmg which is amplified by mastery I think, etc.).



#980 Exemplar

Exemplar

    The One-Eyed Man

  • • Guide Author
  • 1,809 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:15 PM

It might be wiser, more accurate and faster to just simulate your toon in SimC with manually changing the strength values.

Plus every attack benefits from either WeaponDPS * a modifier, or Spellpower * a modifier.  Most modifiers are greater than 100%.  So your damage is increasing by a value greater than WeaponDPS.

 

Not really sure why you're comparing a trinket to a set bonus.  It's rather apples and oranges.  One does not exclude the other - enjoy a tasty fruit salad.


Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users