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Assassination from the Mists


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#1 snowman2050

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 09:11 AM

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#2 Pathal

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:27 PM

Hidden to avoid confusion.

Spoiler


#3 Rfeann

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:23 AM

(List updated 9/26, 11:45 ET, after consulting in-game tooltips)

Mmmkay, assuming I didn't screw any of this up horribly (unlikely), this is how the >i450 trinkets (plus the alchemy trinket) shake out at current EP values, given no reforges and an overly generous 100% uptime (edit: by which I mean the assumption that they proc immediately whenever the ICD hits 0, and that you'll have 100% uptime on your target for the duration of the proc). PvP trinkets not included; neither is the upcoming Brewfest trinket.

These are all based on this crappy spreadsheet I threw together last night. Easy to crappily update as EP values are adjusted.

Stat and proc values are based on in-game tooltip notes. Relic of Xuen is the exception (thus the blue text); I couldn't access an in-game tooltip for it, so I'm going off the Wowhead numbers, which may not be accurate.

ICDs are based on tooltip notes in some cases, but usually it's from this Beta Classes thread in the official forums in which Ghostcrawler provided said info.

I've included all three incarnations of the Jade Bandit Figurine that appear in the database, but since it was reportedly a rare raid trash drop in the beta, it may well only have a single (i496) version in the actual game.

(heroic): 6059.19
(normal): 5367.57
(heroic): 5028.38
(Darkmoon): 4861.48
(RF): 4754.34
(normal): 4455.83
(heroic): 4417.27
(alchemy): 4019.14
(RF): 3948.86
(rep): 3912.96
(normal): 3912.96
(dungeon): 3562.28
(dungeon): 3492.00
(dungeon): 3434.09
(RF): 3369.05

(Depending on how badly I've messed up the numbers, this may be the last post [as well as, for most of you, probably the first] you ever see from me here; it's been nice knowing you all if that's the case, and I hope you've enjoyed my brief, catastrophic, meteoric ride through the EJ atmosphere.)

#4 Enzo90910

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 02:32 PM

EDIT: [removed for stupidity]

#5 ZelosRaine

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 04:27 PM

Just to expand upon this original post with my own experiences in raiding/hours spent on the training dummy since 5.0.4:

While T90 is up for debate, I feel that it is only up for debate with regards to fight mechanics. On a "patchwerk fight," Anticipation provides a significant resource management tool that not only takes a bit of the stress out of maximizing the use of Combo Points, but also, due to Seal Fate, will help to prevent some unavoidable resource loss due to Mutilate and/or Dispatch crits at 3 and 4 CP respectively.

Obviously, Versatility will shine on fights that have many target swaps with powerful adds and Shuriken Toss could, ostensibly, be useful on an encounter with long periods of movement towards a target.

#6 Aldriana

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 06:51 PM

Frankly, I suspect Anticipation is going to wind up being the consensus choice on about 90% of fights.

1) I'm not sure there's a single fight in Cata where Shuriken Toss clearly wins - Atramedes, maybe, but even that is highly debatable. The number of fights where you're stuck at range with nothing better to do than Shuriken Toss is just not that large, because that's exactly the sort of mechanic that induces guilds to sit all their melee in favor of more ranged, and the designers try to avoid that sort of thing.

2) While its true that Versatility will excel on fights with certain target-switching patterns, its not clear to me how often you actually need to redirect more than once a minute. A lot of the time, you either a) have some flexibility on exactly when you need to switch targets, and/or B) Know when you're going to need to switch so can manage CP and energy as appropriate. There are certainly a few fights where it provides an advantage - Omnotron and Madness come to mind - but its by no means the majority, nor even close. And even on fights where there is *some* advantage, its not clear to me that there's *enough* advantage, as even when you're switching targets every 30 seconds there's still nonzero DPS benefit from anticipation.

I could be wrong, and it'll be interesting to see how the final DPS estimates for Anticipation sort out; but as a starting point, I plan to run Anticipation on all fights where it isn't clearly and obviously inferior - and I don't anticipate that being more than a handful of fights.

#7 Pathal

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 09:35 PM

@Rfeann

That's actually an issue we came across a month or so ago when gathering proc data. Wowhead and WowDB have an issue reading the new spell procs for trinkets since the game data is organized differently for the new trinkets.

We think we know the what, and the why, but still don't know the how. We're rather confident that it has to do with challenge mode scaling, and what you may be seeing is the value (or has something to do with the value) that will proc in challenge modes. But they're not the right value in actual raiding.

Linking the trinkets in game should give us the right value.

#8 Rfeann

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 09:45 PM

Ah, I see it now. I should've realized something was off; didn't make sense that all three versions of raid trinkets were yielding the same proc. I'm updating my crappy spreadsheet now in the past (see post #2 for updated numbers).

#9 fffxc2

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 06:30 PM

As I posted in the mists general thread, I believe it should be optimal to delay the last usage of shadow blades until sub 35%. Granted, often the last usage will fall under 35% on it's own, but in the cases where it doesn't, it appears to be a gain to wait on it.

#10 chipix

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 08:07 AM

Frankly, I suspect Anticipation is going to wind up being the consensus choice on about 90% of fights.

1) I'm not sure there's a single fight in Cata where Shuriken Toss clearly wins - Atramedes, maybe, but even that is highly debatable. The number of fights where you're stuck at range with nothing better to do than Shuriken Toss is just not that large, because that's exactly the sort of mechanic that induces guilds to sit all their melee in favor of more ranged, and the designers try to avoid that sort of thing.

2) While its true that Versatility will excel on fights with certain target-switching patterns, its not clear to me how often you actually need to redirect more than once a minute. A lot of the time, you either a) have some flexibility on exactly when you need to switch targets, and/or B) Know when you're going to need to switch so can manage CP and energy as appropriate. There are certainly a few fights where it provides an advantage - Omnotron and Madness come to mind - but its by no means the majority, nor even close. And even on fights where there is *some* advantage, its not clear to me that there's *enough* advantage, as even when you're switching targets every 30 seconds there's still nonzero DPS benefit from anticipation.

I could be wrong, and it'll be interesting to see how the final DPS estimates for Anticipation sort out; but as a starting point, I plan to run Anticipation on all fights where it isn't clearly and obviously inferior - and I don't anticipate that being more than a handful of fights.


I believe the answer is a bit straightforward.
Anticipation: PvE 90lvl talent
Versatility: PvP 90lvl talent
Shuriken Toss: no idea where to use it since as you said if a rogue is treated as range dps better to bring a range dps instead :) Unless there are 2 separate phases, (the melee phase + the range phase), where I think it is clearly a winner to use it.

#11 Hildegard

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 08:05 PM

Shuriken Toss is probably the pvp go-to talent on 90, unless specced into Burst of Speed, which will probably only work in later seasons with more haste.
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#12 Verain

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 04:45 PM

I guess the obvious question is, does anticipation actually change our rotation as we suspected it would?
When you are at 4 CP, we normally envenom. Is it a gain to push up to 5 with another mutilate, THEN envenom?

#13 Pathal

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 05:10 PM

Yes.

It doesn't really make the spec harder to play, but it's significantly harder to explain precisely when you should pool CPs.

#14 dizzlex

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 07:40 PM

Yes.

It doesn't really make the spec harder to play, but it's significantly harder to explain precisely when you should pool CPs.


I think the real question most of us are wondering is what change, if any, we make to finishing with 5pt envenoms if envenom is down since such a large part of Assassination at 85 was using pooling and legendary proc manipulation to keep envenom uptime as high as possible?

With energy regen being so low right now, not Envenoming at 4 doesn't mean 1 global of Envenom downtime, it could easily be 3+ seconds before you get a chance to reapply the debuff. Does this change anything or is 5pt Envenom with pooling when possible always going to be the better choice?

#15 Pathal

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 07:54 PM

Even at 0% Haste, it's possible for every finisher to be 5CP. Also unless you're going to end up wasting charges of Anticipation, or let a critical aura drop off (example: SnD, Rupture), it should always be better to aim for 5CP finishers.

#16 OneOfAll

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 10:04 PM

How much expertise for pve ? I put 8.01% and not 0% on parry on 93lvl bosses.

#17 Viper

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 11:14 PM

How much expertise for pve ? I put 8.01% and not 0% on parry on 93lvl bosses.

7.5% is the 'soft' expertise cap, as it removes dodge from the hit table for a 93. You won't remove parry, but that shouldn't matter because parry is removed by virtue of attacking from behind.

That said, the stat weights provided above by Pathal indicate that soft capping expertise isn't optimal for Assassination and should only be done if it can't be reforged into more mastery (or if you really dislike being dodged and don't care about the dps effect).

#18 Sunshine23

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 08:47 PM

hey guys, i really appreciate the effort you put into analyzing the art of roguecraft. this is the only site i actually trust in. however, i still have some questions which could not be solved after reading through all these comments.

1) is rupture to prioritize over slice and dice? this question has come about since you're obviously supposed to apply rupture before slice and dice in the opener.
2) is it worth applying rupture (including deadly poison) on few several targets standing right next to each other in case they survive its duration? if yes, is rupture to be applied with 1-2 or 4-5cps on each?
i'm not sure if the bonus dmg + venomous wounds effect outweigh the swing timer reset + neglect of envenom buff.
3) is rupture also used while bombing 6 or more high hp mobs with FOK+CT? if yes, is rupture to be applied with 1-2 or 4-5cps on each?
4) is slice and dice used while bombing 6 or more high hp mobs with FOK+CT?
5) single target szenario: rupture has expired while slice and dice has not. you got 1-2cp and you have enough energy for another mutilate+rupture. is rupture to be applied with 1-2 or with 4-5 cp?


these are certainly difficult questions due to the amount of variables involved. i would appreciate any single hint that could help me out.

#19 Higginz

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:27 AM

im sorry if this is a dumb question, but are we still capping spell hit or is our poison cap built into melee hit now?

#20 jAsOs

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:18 AM

IIRC, expertise + hit = spell hit.
As long as you get to 7.5% hit and expertise, you're good.




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