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Assassination from the Mists


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#21 Kirtar88

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:24 PM

IIRC, expertise + hit = spell hit.
As long as you get to 7.5% hit and expertise, you're good.


This is true, 7,5% expertise and 7,5% melee hit will result in a total of 15% spell hit, but IIRC i read something about poisons being affected by our melee hit now, so you dont need to be expertise capped if your mastery stat weights are higher than expertise.
If you got some spare time you could easily check this at the target dummy and share your observations.

#22 Schmoopy

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:28 PM

This is true, 7,5% expertise and 7,5% melee hit will result in a total of 15% spell hit, but IIRC i read something about poisons being affected by our melee hit now, so you dont need to be expertise capped if your mastery stat weights are higher than expertise.
If you got some spare time you could easily check this at the target dummy and share your observations. :)


You are correct. Poisons are off melee hit now. You don't need spell hit cap, that is why an EP value for it is not given in Pathal's first post.

#23 Kirtar88

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:18 PM

Has anyone done some serious testing if the legendary daggers are still viable compared to the ilvl 463 blue daggers from heroics?
I ran lots of tests with the current simcraft version lately with all non-epic pieces of gear one can acquire pre-raid and also with all different weapon enchants (windsong, landslide, elemental force, dancing steel) and my gear-setups using both legendaries always came up ahead by 1k-5k dps while they appeared kind of weak to me during tests on the raid boss target dummies.

#24 Shadire

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:31 PM

Has anyone done some serious testing if the legendary daggers are still viable compared to the ilvl 463 blue daggers from heroics?
I ran lots of tests with the current simcraft version lately with all non-epic pieces of gear one can acquire pre-raid and also with all different weapon enchants (windsong, landslide, elemental force, dancing steel) and my gear-setups using both legendaries always came up ahead by 1k-5k dps while they appeared kind of weak to me during tests on the raid boss target dummies.


I don't know if you take into account the legendary proc rate decay (ie. fact that on 93+ lvl targets proc chance is 50% of what it is on sub 89 level targets). Because it has been mentioned couple times already that Simcraft does not take it into account. So if you can estimate the dps gain from legendary procs on your sims and multiply it by 50% you'll get rough estimation what's its real worth in raiding environment.

My guess would be that 463+ dagger are better anyway due to lower standard deviation of dps results. Simply speaking, you might get only 1-2 legendary procs over the boss fight and if these procs are badly timed, your dps is screwed. While flat bonuses from MoP daggers stats give reliable dps increase even if it slightly smaller than legendary sim.

#25 Leitka

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:38 PM

Has anyone done some serious testing if the legendary daggers are still viable compared to the ilvl 463 blue daggers from heroics?
I ran lots of tests with the current simcraft version lately with all non-epic pieces of gear one can acquire pre-raid and also with all different weapon enchants (windsong, landslide, elemental force, dancing steel) and my gear-setups using both legendaries always came up ahead by 1k-5k dps while they appeared kind of weak to me during tests on the raid boss target dummies.


For 5 mans, its not hard for the legendaries to keep up with superior weapons, in my experience; but that's mostly due to the speed at which people are pulling and the amount of aoe present. In general, 463 weapons should generally be clear winners.

I *would* recommend keeping your legendaries around in your bags though; if we end up with another massive aoe fight similar to Maloriak, I feel they could very easily retain value for a while. On such large pulls, FoK helps to stack the proc ridiculously fast, and if you're able to push out 3-4 procs a minute with ease then well, it's almost a no-brainer. Sha of Anger is the only thing where I've really found this applicable at current, but its interesting.

#26 Hildegard

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:58 PM

Any chance to get numbers for PvP Power? The whole community is waiting for them.
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#27 Toomuchsugar

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:32 AM

Any chance to get numbers for PvP Power? The whole community is waiting for them.


From what I can tell, agility is stronger than PvP Power. But pvp power is stronger than the secondary stats, so Gemming Agi/pvp power seems to be the best if it's a blue socket with a good bonus.

#28 Pathal

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:57 AM

Any chance to get numbers for PvP Power? The whole community is waiting for them.


Assassination:
With 0 PvP Power: 2.54442215251
With 3k PvP Power: 2.28566735731

Combat:
With 0 PvP Power: 2.7457007624
With 3k PvP Power: 2.46647695606

Subtlety:
With 0 PvP Power: 3.44029279943
With 3k PvP Power: 3.09284615951

These were taken from the current rough H14 scripts, after enabling the PvP flag. The PvP EP weight would be much more helpful if the stats and target armor were set to reflect realistic values though.

Nevertheless, this does suggest that PvP Power is the best method for increasing damage against other players.

#29 Hildegard

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 08:00 AM

Thank you so much Pathal!
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#30 frogbound

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 03:46 PM

Does pooling Energy to 80 before using envenom still increase overall dps ?

#31 Wenton

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 04:19 PM

I know that stacking rupture and garrote on the same target is not worth while as assassination. However, do you still get the proc and/or energy regeneration from having rupture up on two targets?

#32 RaXoR

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 04:44 PM

However, do you still get the proc and/or energy regeneration from having rupture up on two targets?


Most definitely. You should try tab-Rupturing in heroics sometime. It's actually decent dps if the rest of your party's dps isn't that high and the adds live long enough to give back substantial energy.
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#33 dizzlex

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 12:28 PM

Most definitely. You should try tab-Rupturing in heroics sometime. It's actually decent dps if the rest of your party's dps isn't that high and the adds live long enough to give back substantial energy.


This is also the most effective way to aoe with 4-5 targets. Get SnD up, 2 fok, rupture, move onto next target. I'm not exactly sure the specifics of this rotation, but if you do this, you will do more damage than just sitting on one target and doing 5 combo point crimson's. This changes once you get to 6+ targets however.

#34 Shigity1285

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:54 PM

Has anyone thought about being a viable trinket option? I ask this since mastery is so heavily weighted and the proc on this trinket is almost 3000 mastery.

Also, would it be better to have double dancing steel, one dancing steel enchant and one windsong enchant, or double windsong? I feel this is a valid question since secondary stats have been given a buff of sorts and primary stats are not as important as they were in Cataclysm.

#35 Omanko

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:25 PM

It depends on the exact proc behavior of both enchants, but intuitively I would say that Dancing Steel is the clear winner. It would make sense, too, given how much more expensive it is to acquire and craft. It being worse than Windsong would not make much sense, now would it ;)

Also note that while it's true secondary stats have become better with MoP, there's still varying degrees depending on classes/specs. It's not a universal rule. Gemming for secondaries especially is only better if the secondary in question is actually valued at more than 50% of the respective primary. Going by the stat weight values in the OP, Mastery in this particular case is NOT more valuable than half of the value in Agility. Assuming those values are correct, that would mean it's more beneficial to gem straight Agi in red sockets. Then again, those values may be incorrect!

#36 dizzlex

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:43 PM

Has anyone thought about being a viable trinket option? I ask this since mastery is so heavily weighted and the proc on this trinket is almost 3000 mastery.

Also, would it be better to have double dancing steel, one dancing steel enchant and one windsong enchant, or double windsong? I feel this is a valid question since secondary stats have been given a buff of sorts and primary stats are not as important as they were in Cataclysm.


This doesn't seem very viable at all.

25% uptime on 2822 mastery is 706 static mastery, which is worse than every 397 normal trinket from Dragon Soul.

While my gear certainly isn't T14 Heroic BIS, I am one of the top 50 geared rogues worldwide as far as gear so I think my gear should suffice for CURRENT testing purposes.

This is my gear with double Windsong. 72861 dps

This is my gear with double Dancing Steel. 76148 dps

This is my gear with One of each. 74507 dps (Dancing Steel on MH, Windsong on offhand) 74715 dps (reversal of MH and OH enchants).

And THIS is your brain on drugs. 0 dps.

Any questions?

#37 Rfeann

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:05 PM

For poops and giggles, I threw the Liquid Courage trinket into the spreadsheet. EP is 1209.90, which is downright horrid by comparison to anything you get at level 90 with agility/AP on it. It's better than the , but that ain't saying much.

Tangentially: Wowhead's tooltips still don't display proc values correctly. WoWDB appears to have corrected for the problem, though.

#38 Schmoopy

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 03:19 PM

For poops and giggles, I threw the Liquid Courage trinket into the spreadsheet. EP is 1209.90, which is downright horrid by comparison to anything you get at level 90 with agility/AP on it. It's better than the , but that ain't saying much.

Tangentially: Wowhead's tooltips still don't display proc values correctly. WoWDB appears to have corrected for the problem, though.


Forgive my naivete, but what spreadsheet are you referring to?

#39 Chaostî

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:33 PM

Hey there some posts are saying that expertise cap is 7.5% other postings, means that isn necessary.

Is it like Cata that Expertise isn necessary for Assa spec?

Ep is Mastery better i know but im a bit confused because some guys saying 7.5% exp is cap =D

#40 Docrev

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 12:39 AM

7.5% experience removes dodges/spell misses from the combat table. While our testing (at least what I saw from beta) showed that we didn't need it since poisons are now on the melee hit table, it still has benefit (less misses, more poison procs, etc). Shadowcraft results show that mastery is better than it, while (for me at least) Simulationcraft shows that expertise is better than it, though I'm not sure which hit table Simulationcraft has poisons on.




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