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Assassination from the Mists


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#501 bural

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 09:57 PM

50% damage boost versus 75% energy cost reduction. 1,5/100% = 150% compared to 1/(100%-75%) = 400% DPE boost. Harder hitting Envenom versus more Envenoms, not to mention the fact Shadow Focus is better spend on other abilities. There's just no way Nightstalker gives better damage per energy than Shadow Focus assuming limited energy resources.

#502 Pheq

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 10:17 AM

Hi guys,

Had this happen a few times now and I'm still not 100%. On a couple of occasions during fights I often generate more CP's and almost capping Energy again with Envenom still up.
At this point, is is still best to just keep dumping the envenoms? Or should I be doing something else to avoid this happening at all...

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#503 phup

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 02:15 PM

Yes, it is better to clip the envenom buff if you have to. Don't ever let energy cap if you can avoid it.

#504 Lazzaros

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 01:06 PM

Hi guys,

I have problems to decide which trinkets to pick. At the moment I got a heroic AoC and a Haromm from flex raid. Confusingly SimC and Shadowcraft both are telling me to stay with Renataki heroic 2 times upgraded than to take Haromm's. Even if it's 2 times upgraded. In a Patchwerk fight in SimC there is an difference in about 3k dps. I can't believe that this old ToT trinket should be still competitive to the new ones. Especially because the proc was nerfed to 10 seconds.

Second thing I don't get is that most guides and people saying rogue should stick to Haromm's and Ticking Ebon for BiS. But I'm getting better results with AoC in SimC an Shadowcraft. Sounds strange enough, because of the nice utility AoC gives us by also reducing def cds.

And for stats now it's also strange. Some say get 11-12k mastery, then take haste and crit balanced. Others say make those 3 stats balanced. And SimC an Shadowcraft getting me results for much haste, medium crit and less mastery.

Maybe you guys can help me out a bit.

#505 phup

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 03:43 PM

they didn't nerf rentaki. they reduced the proc time but doubled the RPPM rate. Your average results should be the same, just less spiky.

So you're comparing a 535 trinket that's strong to a 540 trinket that's medium for assassination. And the 535 one comes out slightly ahead. Not that surprising.

As far as AOC, it was just barely behind in the early estimates, and I think it was very undervalued for assassination early on. They just looked at it as 30% (or whatever, depending on the version) more vendetta and shadowblade uptime means how much more damage? But the reality is a lot of the time it's strong for assassination and sometimes it's meh. On a fight just over 5 minutes, it turns 3 vendettas and 2 shadow blades into 4 vendettas and 3 shadowblades. That's 33% more vendetta and 50% more shadowblade uptime. Way better than the theoretical valuation. Not to mention the extra cloak and sprint = more mechanics ignored and more dps uptime. Indirect damage boosts that aren't in the BiS calculation.

However there are some fight durations (especially in the shorter range) where it would turn out to be weak for Assassination because it doesn't give you any extra vendetta and/or shadow blades. You can play with the fight duration on SimC and see that there are ranges where it's worse compared to haromm/ebon.

however, unless I know exactly how long the fight is going to be and can be very certain the reduced cooldowns won't help me, i would never replace that trinket in any rogue spec.

#506 Lazzaros

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 04:50 PM

Sorry for the delay,

thanks a lot for your help phup. I didn't thought like that about AoC. I will keep an eye on my fights and lengthes to see if i get another Vendetta and or Shadow Blades. Of course that makes sense what you said. Should help me out.

What do you think about stat weights? Is it worth to follow Shadowcraft and Simulationcraft, with crit being best because of the set bonus? Or is it better to first stack mastery even if its a theoratically dps loss, because of the differences in fights, where you can't just nuke all the time. Or maybe because it's more reliable damage.

#507 phup

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 09:30 PM

Rogues attack so fast and generate so many attacks that the "unreliability" of crit is mostly eliminated by the sample size. You're going to have a little more variance in your results with higher crit, but not enough to worry about it.

With the t16 two-piece, the stat weights are so even you can run pretty much any setup you want. For me that means getting haste up to a point where the rotation isn't mind numbingly slow, and then evenly stacking crit and mastery.

But if you just blindly follow the Shadowcraft recommendations, you'll be fine as well. Any ratio of mastery:haste:crit will be within a percent of the theoretical max, so set it up however suits you.

#508 Lazzaros

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 07:40 PM

Thanks again. That's what I'm gonna do. For me it feels better not to have too much haste, because of overriding the envenom buff and makes it easier to follow a good rotation. At the moment I changed from SimC results to mastery>crit>haste, which feels much better for me. For example many or maybe even most guys from progress guilds are going for mastery too. So let's see how this is gonna work.
So thanks again for your advice! I wish you good loot ;)

#509 Rewyndlol

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 02:21 PM

Anyone have any input on Ticking Ebon(ass-backwards stacking) vs haromms(multi-strike) for 2nd trinket?
Our combat rogues doing pretty crazy numbers (4-6%) ST with a 2/2 norm haromms. I understand it would prob be less for assassination but still better than 2k~ mastery.
The rppm chance is a little higher for the ebon, but dealing with the stacking mechanic can be a pain sometimes. That and a quicker heroic upgrade.

Thanks.

#510 pwndamonium

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 05:53 AM

A while ago, i saw a post regarding using 2 set(favored crit) and 4 set(favored mastery). Also, i've seen a 50 50 split on rogues just using 2 set and some 4...what is the ideal situation?
Ive been using the crit build for the past 4 or 5 weeks...and i feel my damage is actually decreasing...Now that i have 4 set after tonight. not sure if i should go to a different build. Any opinions? Or is it still going to favor play style if theres no significant increase between the combinations?

Here is a link to my stuff Pwndamonium @ US Misha
Note i logged out with improper hit and expertise because i just equipped a couple pieces and plan to fix tomorrow anyways. Off to bed.

#511 Torima

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 02:32 PM

Without seeing logs It would be hard to tell since you have two rppm trinkets and could be having poor rng with procs or you were lucky and had a very high up time on them among any other difference during the fight.

As far as the set bonuses go crit has more value with the two set but the 4 set would more likely favor haste or crit with getting to maximum stacks as quick as possible. Depending on where stat values are at even reforging can be a minimal gain, currently I reforge mastery>haste> 30%crit while optimal yields around 600 more damage. In the end their isn't a large difference between having 4 set or using 2 set with offset warforged pieces, just grab whatever is the best possible option for what you have downed in Seige.

#512 matrixme

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 01:22 PM

I noticed in the professions section JC only says 320 agility,am I wrong in saying its 640 agility due to the fact you can have two gems that equal 320?

#513 Wally1169

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 01:45 PM

I noticed in the professions section JC only says 320 agility,am I wrong in saying its 640 agility due to the fact you can have two gems that equal 320?


The gems are worth 320 each but they replace gems that are worth 160, so the sum of the differences is 320.

#514 phup

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 02:39 PM

The latest build of SimulationCraft shows that using mutilate as the opener and after vanishes is a significant gain over using ambush.  Around 2% or more depending on gear.  Shadowcraft shows ambush as being a fraction of a percent better.

 

If Shadowcraft is right then it doesn't matter which you use.  But if SimC is right, a 2% gain can't be ignored and mutilate is the only option.  So counting the opener, with prep and vanish you end up doing about 1.2ish ambushes a minute.  I'm ok with running the sims and messing with action lists, but doing the napkin math / theorycrafting is not my strong suit.  Can anyone prove/disprove with some numbers that it's possible that replacing 1 ambush every 50 seconds on average with a mutilate could result in a total 2% dps gain or is SimC just wacky?



#515 nchase

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 05:47 AM

I was just wondering if people are going haste at 555ish gear score.  Once i get the 2 piece bonus, shadowcraft says to go haste and when i play with the gear seperatly it really averages out all three stats.



#516 Axiran

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 03:47 AM

Question about Rogue Mastery Cap for Assassination. Is there a theoretical cap where Mastery caps? I have heard around 110% (with raid buffs), but cant confirm this. I had a two peice bonus, and was using the crit build for this. Just obtained the 4pc and heading more towards a haste>mastery>crit build. Havent really tested it out. 

 

Another rogue in our guild is playing way past his theoretical shadowcraft dps using a heavy haste build. Anyone know the cap on haste as well? And for the 4pc, is the haste build better?



#517 Axiran

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 03:48 AM

I was just wondering if people are going haste at 555ish gear score.  Once i get the 2 piece bonus, shadowcraft says to go haste and when i play with the gear seperatly it really averages out all three stats.

Pretty sure shadowcraft will tell you multiple ways to reforge, but generally, crit build is better for 2pc due to meta and cloak. 



#518 Flimflop

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 09:25 PM

Question about Rogue Mastery Cap for Assassination. Is there a theoretical cap where Mastery caps? I have heard around 110% (with raid buffs), but cant confirm this.

 

Another rogue in our guild is playing way past his theoretical shadowcraft dps using a heavy haste build. Anyone know the cap on haste as well? And for the 4pc, is the haste build better?

Mastery does not cap, it will always have value and increase as far as i know, but there may be some obscene unreachable amount at which it has no value.

 

Haste will always have a value, until you reach something ridiculous like 28k i want to say(?). Again an unreachable amount, but other stats will be shown as a higher EP in shadowcraft dynamically, of course.

 

As for the 4pc, it also updates the stat weights but its such a small difference I don't think you'll notice any significant gains / losses with a different build. I would go with whatever you prefer from anecdotal testing (Don't hate me for saying that!) because of the limited potency of the 4pc altogether.


Edited by Flimflop, 08 December 2013 - 09:25 PM.


#519 Dekarhan

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 04:28 AM

Good evening / Good morning. 

I play rogue on french server, in assassination spe, and i don't know if i have to optimize Mastery or Haste. When i read this topic, i will say that haste will be better with my stuff (many of Hast/Mastery items, AoC and Blackfuse trinket, Norushen Heroic and Nazgrim weapons). But i didn't understood why Haste will be better than mastery, can someone explain this to me ? Sorry for my english, for me as a french student, not sure if i speak well. Thanks, and sorry if a miss something already explain in this topic. 


Edited by Dekarhan, 15 December 2013 - 04:34 AM.


#520 Enzo90910

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 09:37 AM

But i didn't understood why Haste will be better than mastery, can someone explain this to me ?

 

That's hard to explain. Each stats is good for multiple reasons, knowing which one is better for your gear comes from lots of testing or asking a simulation/modeling tool like http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com






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