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Assassination from the Mists


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#41 Chaostî

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:03 AM

Thats why im confused =D

At the moment i reforged only the 7.5% hit cap and the rest mastery so i got maybe 1000 exp left and hope thats better to reforge it this way

#42 nonmagical

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 02:33 PM

The Assassination reforge priorities (as far as I understand them) is Hit (til 7.5%) > Mastery > Expertise (til 7.5%) > Haste > Crit. With current gear you will start getting to the expertise cap even while reforged to Mastery whenever you can. I got to that about around 474 ilvl or so.

#43 Adarrin

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:12 AM

How much should I believe Simcraft results? Every simulation is showing Mastery > Haste > Expertise >= Crit. Therefore, you can have very little expertise (~3.5% with my current gear).

Also, the simulations are showing Strength > Mastery, so how accurate is that?

#44 dizzlex

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:08 PM

How much should I believe Simcraft results? Every simulation is showing Mastery > Haste > Expertise >= Crit. Therefore, you can have very little expertise (~3.5% with my current gear).

Also, the simulations are showing Strength > Mastery, so how accurate is that?


I think that is consistent. Strength gives 1 ap to agility 2 ap. Agility does also give some critical strike chance but not very much per point atm.

When I sim my own ep weights. I am getting

Mastery 1.39
Agi 3.88
Strength 1.45

So strength seems pretty accurate. Half as valuable as Agi would be 1.94 but since you don't get that crit from the strength and only get half the attack power 1.45 seems expected.

This is totally wasted math though since no gear or anything we do ever has str on it.

#45 madsushi

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:26 PM

This is totally wasted math though since no gear or anything we do ever has str on it.


There are actually a few sources of STR for rogues, like the Glorious Stats chest enchant, for example.

#46 frogbound

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 07:10 PM

I think that is consistent. Strength gives 1 ap to agility 2 ap. Agility does also give some critical strike chance but not very much per point atm.

When I sim my own ep weights. I am getting

Mastery 1.39
Agi 3.88
Strength 1.45

So strength seems pretty accurate. Half as valuable as Agi would be 1.94 but since you don't get that crit from the strength and only get half the attack power 1.45 seems expected.

This is totally wasted math though since no gear or anything we do ever has str on it.





does this mean the +str Enchant for Gloves is better than the mastery one?

#47 Adarrin

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 07:39 PM

I'm noticing every top end rogue is using Mastery to gloves, so I'm hesitant to switch. But according to simcraft, I should use Strength.

#48 Aldriana

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:05 PM

My understanding is that there's a scaling effect in play here. At low gear levels - dungeon blues and the like - rating stats are very weak. However, as you gear up, they appear to scale pretty rapidly. So right now, strength may be a little better, but with a few weeks of gearing with raid epics, mastery should reclaim the lead.

That said: it hasn't yet been determined *why* rating stats are scaling so quickly relative to the historical norm. It could have to do with balance changes that have been made - the weapon damage rebalance being an obvious suspect - or it could be indicative of a bug in the modeling. So take this analysis with a grain of salt.

#49 mr-jolly

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:15 PM

Before being able to run heroic 5-man content I reforged hit and expertise to 6-6.5%. When I started running heroics I reforged to 7.5% hit and expertise and saw horrendous DPS.

After reforging to 7.5% hit, then mastery and then haste if mastery was not possible and taking the expertise that was left I ended up with ~4/5% expertise and ~4% more mastery than I had previously.

On the training dummy I saw my DPS double. This was at iLevel 450 with a 450 MH and / 440ish OH (green quest dagger).

My thinking is that at this lower iLevel, especially with the low damage weapons that mastery scales better than expertise - in other words poison damage gained was much higher than the direct damage lost via misses.

I don't have logs for this and my dummy sessions were short - one full cooldown of shadow blades - just to see where the DPS was settling. Obviously this does not take into account execute damage, but for me it was enough for the short fights in heroic 5-man content.

I am going to revisit this now that I have 460+ gear with logging and better analysis, but I wanted to give my informal experience.

#50 mr-jolly

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:16 PM

...and Aldriana slips in while I was writing this post with a more succinct version of what I just posted. :)

Drat!

#51 winkiller

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:35 PM

So, given the, let's say unfinished, state of theorycrafting tools available, is it too early to try to fill in the Gem and Enchant parts of the original post here?

I've just tried to compile my enchant list for the second time, maybe it's worth putting the viable options up (even if their ranking isn't final)

Shoulder
Secret Tiger Claw Inscription (Inscription only)
Greater Tiger Claw Inscription
Tiger Claw Inscription

Back
Enchant Cloak - Accuracy
Enchant Cloak - Superior Critical Strike

Wrist
Fur Lining - Agility - (LW only)
Enchant Bracer - Greater Agility
Enchant Bracer - Mastery

Chest
Enchant Chest - Glorious Stats

Hands
Enchant Gloves - Superior Mastery
Enchant Gloves - Superior Expertise
Enchant Gloves - Greater Haste

Legs
Primal Leg Reinforcements (LW only)
Shadowleather Leg Armor

Feet
Enchant Boots - Blurred Speed
Enchant Boots - Greater Haste
Enchant Boots - Greater Haste

Weapons
Enchant Weapon - Dancing Steel
Enchant Weapon - Windsong
Enchant Weapon - Elemental Force

Finger
Enchant Ring - Greater Agility

Missing: Engineer Goodies
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#52 Choseh

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:34 AM

hey everyone,
i thought i'd contribute some ilvl 474 scales
Posted Image
*edit* removed hit and exp due to cap, 10k iterations

str still pretty strong.

#53 Fnar

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:45 AM

does this mean the +str Enchant for Gloves is better than the mastery one?


If it gives 163 or more strength it is better ( based on 1.39 for mastery and 1.45 weighting for strength)

#54 Choseh

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:52 AM

actually gives 170 str - anyone figured out what gear it takes to make mastery better?

so:

Hands
Enchant Gloves - Super Strength
Synapse Springs Mark II - Engineering only

can't believe i actually enchanted my gloves with +str, but simcrafting afterwards gave me ~50 more dps

something completely different:

i can't decide if i should go with 6% exp and slightly more simcraft dps or less dps and exp cap. what's the word on the exp cap? i'm getting 67137 dps with 6% exp and 67084 dps with exp capped.

#55 Choseh

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:43 PM

Is anyone seeing these simulated results in game?


i get about 8k less in nhc encounters. guess i suck a lot, but well, my simulated results were done with the elite simcraft preset and a patchwerk style encounter.

oh and mr. jolly, any news on exp/mastery in higher level gear? i still have two 463 daggers, so maybe you have an answer for my previous post?

#56 SirRuk

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:02 PM

Why SimCraft uses ambush as opener?I thought garrote was the best opener as assassination.
Or we suppose to use the Subterfuge talent?

#57 Rigapples

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:15 PM

Apparently I must be confused if we are supposed to open with Garrote. My typical opening is:

[Stealth]Mutilate (Shadow Focus)
Mutilate
Dispatch(if proc'd and at 4CPs)
Rupture (4-5cps)
Dispatch(if proc'd from before and not used)
SnD
Normal Rotation 4-5cp envenoms while keeping Rupture up.

The more I think about it, I should probably use SnD first before Mutilate due to our overwhelming amount of damage from passive, but I've gotten so used to this it's automatic. Until I see math that says otherwise, I'll continue to do this rotation.

Opening with Mutilate (unless I am overthinking this) gives:
2x Chance to proc Poisons
Chance to proc Blindside
Chance to give 2-3 CPs

Garrote would start energetic recovery and delay our first Rupture - allowing us to get SnD up a little earlier in the opening. Does this outweigh the benefits of an extra CP, Blindside Proc, and Poisons? (all not 100%, of course..)

#58 nonmagical

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:40 PM

I had been using Garrote to open for a while, but have since switched to Mutilate. Here are a couple points as to why:

Garrote's damage is somewhere in the 15k-20k range, give or take (and depending on gear). That's about as much damage as your mutilate's main hand. At least it is for mine. At any rate, the entire mutilate is going to be higher damage.

Mutilate produces an extra combo point naturally, and has a chance to produce a third.

Both cost the same energy: 0.

Garrote ticks every 3 seconds as opposed to every 2 seconds of Rupture. So your energy regen is not as strong. Even if you started with garrote, prioritized a quick SnD, and then went for a 5 CP rupture, you may only be looking at 1 tick, 2 tops. Where as if I started with mutilate and rushed a 5 point Rupture, I could have that up in 3 global cooldowns. Prioritizing SnD, I could have it up in 5.

#59 mr-jolly

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:49 PM

Add to these points the fact that Mutilate is situation proof. For whatever reason if you are not able to get behind the target, mutilate hits and gets you into combat.

#60 phup

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:45 PM

Ambush hits a lot harder for me than both garrote or mutilate and also generates 2 or 3 combo points. The only downside is one less attack to apply poison, but ambush still hits harder for me even if you assume off hand mutilate gets an extra poison proc every single time.

I have been following the Simcraft opening... Ambush -> SnD -> Mutilate -> Rupture to get everything going, and then into normal rotation.




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