Jump to content


Photo

The Art of Combat (Version 1)


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
147 replies to this topic

#21 phup

phup

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 40 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:00 PM

So after trying to figure out why I am such a trash can rogue pulling sub par dps I analyzed all the top rogue parses from the raids. None of the combat spec rogues doing great dps use rupture at all. That should be removed from the rotation in this guide.

thanks


I'm not sure if that qualifies as a terrible post, but here's a reply anyway.

If you are looking at Stone Guard parses, that is a blade flurry fight and you don't use rupture, since it doesn't benefit from bf. I looked at the top few combat parses in WoL on the next 3 fights and they almost all used rupture (10 out of 12), ranging from 30% to 75% up-time.

And even if nobody was using it, it doesn't change the fact that if used optimally, it is a small dps increase.

That said, if I sim my rogue, adding rupture to a rupture-less rotation increases the dps by only 1.2%. So if it's simpler and easier for you to just use eviscerate, you are not losing much from the theoretical max (and it may actually help you a little, if trying to keep up with rupture was distracting you from doing other things properly)

#22 Rfeann

Rfeann

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 99 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:07 PM

1) The use of Rupture will not have an overwhelming impact on your DPS either way. If a person was playing a rogue badly with Rupture, they'll still be playing it badly without it.

2) This guide is -- heck, virtually any guide is -- intended to provide a sense of what a person *should* be doing, not what other people *are* doing. If Rupture is mathematically a DPS gain, then it's mathematically a DPS gain regardless of whether top-performing rogues in top-progression guilds raiding during the first week of MSV have elected to use it.

3) There can be any number of reasons why, in the first week of a raid tier, people choose not to use a particular ability or rotation (or spec, for that matter). Theorycrafting isn't necessarily complete or conclusive on a wide range of issues yet, and inertia is a powerful force.

4) The top Combat parse for Feng at the moment was posted by a Rupture-weaving rogue. So your use of "all" is probably an overstatement.

I haven't seen any evidence in this thread or others to suggest that the Rupture recommendation is wrong. I suppose it could be; maybe the data analysis that led to the statement being made in the OP is no longer current. And as Pathal noted, the guide itself needs a person to love and hug and squeeze it and keep it up to date and accurate.

But "rogues in some logs I looked at didn't use it" doesn't automatically flow into "clearly the guide is wrong." There are confirmatory steps that have to happen between those two points. The tail doesn't wag the dog.

#23 Chenz

Chenz

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 19 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:28 PM

1) The use of Rupture will not have an overwhelming impact on your DPS either way. If a person was playing a rogue badly with Rupture, they'll still be playing it badly without it.

2) This guide is -- heck, virtually any guide is -- intended to provide a sense of what a person *should* be doing, not what other people *are* doing. If Rupture is mathematically a DPS gain, then it's mathematically a DPS gain regardless of whether top-performing rogues in top-progression guilds raiding during the first week of MSV have elected to use it.

3) There can be any number of reasons why, in the first week of a raid tier, people choose not to use a particular ability or rotation (or spec, for that matter). Theorycrafting isn't necessarily complete or conclusive on a wide range of issues yet, and inertia is a powerful force.

4) The top Combat parse for Feng at the moment was posted by a Rupture-weaving rogue. So your use of "all" is probably an overstatement.

I haven't seen any evidence in this thread or others to suggest that the Rupture recommendation is wrong. I suppose it could be; maybe the data analysis that led to the statement being made in the OP is no longer current. And as Pathal noted, the guide itself needs a person to love and hug and squeeze it and keep it up to date and accurate.

But "rogues in some logs I looked at didn't use it" doesn't automatically flow into "clearly the guide is wrong." There are confirmatory steps that have to happen between those two points. The tail doesn't wag the dog.


I know this is a small sample size, but I've seen the same trend in the few fights I've analyzed in skada. In the log you linked Laxa did an average of 70k damage per eviscerate and only 68k per rupture cast. At least you can say that the damage difference between the two seems quite minimal.

Edit: Completely forgot to take the difference in energy cost into account. That would put rupture at an advantage.

#24 Rfeann

Rfeann

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 99 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:41 PM

I am about as far from an expert in log analysis as Rebecca Black is from being a professional singer. Is it possible to tell from the log how often Rupture was cast at 5CP vs. a lower number of CPs?

#25 Naggert

Naggert

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 12 posts

Posted 05 October 2012 - 03:50 PM

I know it's much to ask, but could one of you numbercrunching geniouses please post the different caps? Like hit, expertise, mastery etc

#26 Shadire

Shadire

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 29 posts

Posted 05 October 2012 - 04:10 PM

I am about as far from an expert in log analysis as Rebecca Black is from being a professional singer. Is it possible to tell from the log how often Rupture was cast at 5CP vs. a lower number of CPs?

Unfortunately this kind of utility for combo points analysis was always missing in WoL. So the answer is no, you can't tell that.

#27 Roketsu86

Roketsu86

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 12 posts

Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:16 PM

I know it's much to ask, but could one of you numbercrunching geniouses please post the different caps? Like hit, expertise, mastery etc


Hit and expertise both cap at 2550 (soft cap in expertise's case). Haste and mastery haven't had realistic caps since Wrath.

#28 Naggert

Naggert

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 12 posts

Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:43 PM

Hit and expertise both cap at 2550 (soft cap in expertise's case). Haste and mastery haven't had realistic caps since Wrath.


You're a darling! I was browing the armory and people seemed to have hit frp, 2437 to 2789 so I figured it was somewhere in between. Thanks!

#29 Meygaera

Meygaera

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 51 posts

Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:38 AM

Does anyone know of the number of mobs required to switch to spamming FoK without blade flurry on as opposed to just doing single target rotation with blade flurry up? There isn't much in here about AoE rotations yet.

#30 Platt

Platt

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 07 October 2012 - 06:26 PM

I've heard it to be 8 targets. Though I cannot remember from where I read that. Not the most helpful/useful, but it's a start.

#31 chipix

chipix

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 16 posts

Posted 08 October 2012 - 09:07 AM

Should a Gnome rogue cap expertise for the MH only if he is holding a dagger in the OH?

#32 Farz

Farz

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 23 posts

Posted 08 October 2012 - 09:33 AM

Is there an EP value of the different racials somewhere since the Touch of Grave nerf ?

#33 shinwa

shinwa

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 08 October 2012 - 01:01 PM

Is there an EP value of the different racials somewhere since the Touch of Grave nerf ?


What touch of the grave nerf?

#34 phup

phup

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 40 posts

Posted 08 October 2012 - 01:35 PM

Should a Gnome rogue cap expertise for the MH only if he is holding a dagger in the OH?


What do you mean, only MH? There is no way to cap MH expertise as a gnome with a dagger in your offhand and NOT cap offhand as well. Your offhand will be over the cap, but it's necessary since almost all special attacks are based on MH expertise.

My question is the opposite. As a human, what is the value of off hand expertise? When I have a mace/sword in main hand and a non-human bonus weapon in the off, do i just want to cap expertise on mainhand and leave offhand low (2210 cap instead of 2550).

According to simcraft, capping at 2210 in this case and putting the extra points into something else is a dps boost (about 1%). I was wondering if shadowcraft showed the same thing.

Now that I look at it, all slow weapons are fist weapons in this tier, so I guess this is only useful to know while using heroic dungeon or pvp weapons as a filler.

#35 Pathal

Pathal

    Don Flamenco

  • • Guide Author
  • 347 posts

Posted 08 October 2012 - 01:52 PM

We don't have a particularly accurate modelling of Touch of the Grave right now. It's set up as an on use racial that deals a predetermined amount of spell damage every 2min. I'll see if someone else has the mechanical data for it now, just as soon as I find the time.

#36 Farz

Farz

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 23 posts

Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:05 PM

What touch of the grave nerf?


They added an ICD on it

We don't have a particularly accurate modelling of Touch of the Grave right now. It's set up as an on use racial that deals a predetermined amount of spell damage every 2min. I'll see if someone else has the mechanical data for it now, just as soon as I find the time.


Thanks for the input Pathal.

I looked around a bit on the internet since my modelling skills are close to zero and i found shadowpanther's aep race comparison but i'm almost sure it's pre TOG nerf. Here they are : Rogue Races Chart - ShadowPanther.net

Touch of the grave, as mutilate on Feng and Elegon, made 2.2% and 1.9% of my overall damage. Throughout the logs it's a 2% of my DPS. But i was pretty poorly geared (455ish ilevel) at the time.

#37 zetti

zetti

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 09 October 2012 - 08:05 PM

Now shouldn't this be the Rotation:

Ambush, RS, SSx3, Vanish, Prep, Ambush, SSx2, Vanish, Ambush, KS, SnD, RS, Adreneline Rush Shadow Blades, SSx2, Rupture, Eviserate, SSx2, Evis, SSx2, Evis, Etc. ?


This way you are maxing your KS, AR, and SB CD's

#38 Roketsu86

Roketsu86

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 12 posts

Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:20 PM

Now shouldn't this be the Rotation:

Ambush, RS, SSx3, Vanish, Prep, Ambush, SSx2, Vanish, Ambush, KS, SnD, RS, Adreneline Rush Shadow Blades, SSx2, Rupture, Eviserate, SSx2, Evis, SSx2, Evis, Etc. ?


This way you are maxing your KS, AR, and SB CD's


Counting the GCDs and the time it takes to use KSp that's nearly 14 seconds without SnD up. That's no good at all, as SnD is probably the biggest passive DPS increase we can give ourselves for the least amount of energy and GCDs spent.

You would also never want to use Prep while in the Vanish state, as Prep uses a GCD and you are not auto attacking while in stealth. The best time to use prep is as soon after Vanish as you can, but you should also wait for a time when you are low enough on energy that the gains during that GCD won't cap you.

#39 zetti

zetti

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:18 PM

Counting the GCDs and the time it takes to use KSp that's nearly 14 seconds without SnD up. That's no good at all, as SnD is probably the biggest passive DPS increase we can give ourselves for the least amount of energy and GCDs spent.

You would also never want to use Prep while in the Vanish state, as Prep uses a GCD and you are not auto attacking while in stealth. The best time to use prep is as soon after Vanish as you can, but you should also wait for a time when you are low enough on energy that the gains during that GCD won't cap you.


Ahh yes, so there can be a few minor changes, but with the vanishes you are loosing ~ 4 secs total of auto attacking, and I try to use finishers after my KS so I can start lowering its CD

BUt yeah we can throw a SnD in there no problem.

#40 xriotx

xriotx

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 10 posts

Posted 10 October 2012 - 01:20 AM

I'm in the process of optimizing my professions and I've come across this specific item while making a sheet to compare every professions perks :

This is a net +2420 agility bonus compared to non alchemists flasks :

Unless i'm mistaken or misinformed does this mean Alchemy (until epic gems are released) is now one of the two best profession for rogues ?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users