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The Art of Combat (Version 1)


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#141 Kirtar88

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:42 PM

This was discussed earlier, but if you can help me get more specific than "a few hundred dps" when calculating the value of the proc, I'd be happy to toss it into the crapsheet. Well, that, and if anyone can point me to the EP value of DPS assuming T14 BiS.


According to comments at Ghost Iron Dragonling the dragonling proc will do about 13k damage per proc with a cooldown of roughly a minute. One poster said, he tried different gearsets and the damage of the proc didn't change, so its most unlikely to scale with gear.

One of the earliest MV logs of my raid show four procs on a 6:10m fight, doing 720 dps while it was active with 55295 dmg total over the course of the fight. Thats ~13824 per proc which confirms the statement on wowhead.

#142 Aldriana

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:58 PM

Well, off the top of my head: 13k damage once a minute (or so) works out to something like 220 DPS averaged over the duration of the fight, which is something on the order of 150 EP. Given the scale of the numbers we're looking at for other trinkets, I would therefore classify the damage done by the proc as just this side of completely irrelevant in terms of assessing the value of the trinket.

#143 Rfeann

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 04:39 AM

Alrighty then. Assuming that 1 DPS = .54 EP at T14 BiS, and also assuming a trinket DPS of 216.6forever, and also also assuming optimal cogwheel usage, we'd be looking at an EP value of 3795.00 for the Ghost Dealie Majigger for Combat. Which would put it right between the probably nonexistent LFR Jade Bandit Figurine and the fully existent Windswept Pages heroic dungeon drop.

'Course, using BiS EP values to determine the relative strength of trinkets we're only likely to have at way-below-BiS gear levels might be an exercise in futility to begin with. But as obsessed as I've apparently become with trinkets, I for one ain't gonna try to set up ShadowCraft on my computer in order to run numbers so I can provide gradations of relative trinket values as our gear scales.

#144 Aminagorum

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 05:51 PM

Hi,

it's kind of confusing, that as a specc, which is so much depending on its CDs, the fact of "on use" isn't added into the maths in terms of Trinket EP. I know, that this is a matter very hard to calculate, because you could also say

- what if it's a movement boss
- what if you miss to use it in terms of not having it bounded into macros
- what if you also time your CDs with selfproccing ones

but nevertheless, also on a patchwork-like fight, wouldn't it make a huge difference between the selfprocc mechanism (perfect uptime) versus the one, where you're able to shorten or enlarge your usage in order to perform an perfect match with your Major CDs (besides deep Insight etc.)?

Is there any possibilty to get this fact calculated into our Trinket Values?

#145 Aldriana

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 06:44 PM

Thing is, its sort of hard to make those adjustments in the abstract. Every fight has a different pattern of burn phases and interruptions, so unless you're going to try to write custom modeling for every individual fight, its really hard to account for "the value may be different on different fights" in any general way.

Hence, the usual approach is to provide the average-case benefit, largely neglecting such factors, and expect the user to keep such factors in mind on his own - if you have an on-use trinket, keep in mind it might be a little better on some fights if it aligns well with your cooldowns or burn phases. If the boss gets more dangerous at low health, keep in mind that Asssassination has an execute that might prove helpful independent of the average-case DPS of the specs. And so on.

Note, however, that the effect is generally not that large. Aligning with AR and Shadow Blades may give a 10 or 20 percent boost to the value of the trinket, but its not going to double it barring extremely unusual circumstances.

#146 jtstormrage

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 05:13 PM

According to comments at Ghost Iron Dragonling the dragonling proc will do about 13k damage per proc with a cooldown of roughly a minute. One poster said, he tried different gearsets and the damage of the proc didn't change, so its most unlikely to scale with gear.

One of the earliest MV logs of my raid show four procs on a 6:10m fight, doing 720 dps while it was active with 55295 dmg total over the course of the fight. Thats ~13824 per proc which confirms the statement on wowhead.


Hi - if my calcs re the EP value of the Cogwheels are correct (3678) and if Aldriana is correct and we give the proc 150 EP, that puts the value of the trinket at 3828. Hey it is not great, but it is a reasonable starter trinket and, on the basis that the Combat Guide is for starter Rogues and also experienced Rogues, it could go on the list on the front page, and maybe also get on the list for Assassination and Sub.

#147 Ashvael

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 06:13 PM

Your calculations are not neccessarily wrong, however you cannot use the EP weights of cappable stats. Since we are going to be hit and expertise capped either way with reforges, we basically use the best non-cappable stat IF you would gain haste by getting more hit/expertise (i.e. you are currently not reforging haste on every item because you need hit/exp). If this is not the case, we would use mastery's EP weight.

But let's just assume we would gain haste by having more exp/hit, this would change the trinket to 1800 * 1.5 = 2700. 2850 EP for the whole trinket is below any heroic trinket. The trinket would only have your EP values if you could not get to hit & exp cap with reforging.

#148 Aldriana

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 04:38 PM

Please move further discussion of combat mechanics and gearing to the new guide started by Kirtar88, found here.




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