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Subtle Ways of Subtlety


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#21 Haileaus

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 11:54 PM

I wrote up some tips for optimizing Anticipation in my guide on the official forums. Honestly this should be applied to every spec, though it is probably best for sub. Here's a link.

#22 Druss

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 02:30 PM

What is your opening sequence for Subterfuge? What about with ShF? What have you tried? Are you assuming 0 CP before the fight?


Re: Subterfuge my guess would be that the optimal opener is going to be either:

(1) pre-med Garotte/Ambush/Ambush since Garotte will trigger SV and Anticipation will mean you don't lose the significant number of additional CPs this opener would generate + you extend FW as long as possible. The upside of this opener is high initial burst. The downside is you end up with no energy: or
(2) pre-med Garotte/SnD/Ambush since you'll get SV (from the bleed) and SnD rolling as well as making your third action one that extends FW; or
(3) pre-med Ambush/Evis/Ambush which probably is the very best burst, has a good chance of an energy return following Evis from RS + prolongs FW and leaves you with a decent number of CPs to burn on SnD or Rupture. All it does not do is get a bleed on nor get SnD rolling straight off.

I think that if you can pre-SnD (and you commonly can) then option 3 is likely to be best with the points from the final ambush then going towards a rupture. Option 3 is also a good choice following any vanish mid fight. If SnD is not on before you open I suspect option 2 might be better.

#23 Haileaus

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 06:07 PM

I was actually asking about the simulations. The ideal opener is probably Prem/Garrote+Hemo/SnD (switch these if you are at 5+ CP after Garrote)+Ambush. If you don't have the energy to get 4 abilities in, then drop Hemo. Also even with FW only affecting Eviscerate Rupture still does higher damage, so you will only ever Evisc once Rupt/SnD are up.

#24 Nouk

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 03:41 PM

Has anyone actually tested 463 vs Legendarie's yet outside of Simulations?
I have terrible Luck with Drops so far and can't do it myself.
On Wednesday Mogushan Vaults i still wore my Fangs and did okay-ish DPS, but i feel it should be higher for my Gear.
AFAIK Shadowcraft still doesn't count in Proc Decay, so im still on the Fence if 463 Daggers are an upgrade.

#25 The_Rhian

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:27 PM

Have we found out if the bleed damage from both Rupt/Garrote are affected by MuS both during its uptime and also after the duration of the buff? I ask because if it is the case that they do gain the 10% buff from MuS for the full duration of the initial application of the bleed even after MuS has fallen off wouldn't it be beneficial to have subterfuge to maximize the benefit of MuS? You should be able to open with Prem/Garrote/Rupt/Ambush...this would set you up to apply SnD after subterfuge falls off and you would maximize MuS and still have the full durtation of FW. I have not tested this so this is pure speculation and may not be correct.

#26 Synek

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 06:49 PM

Have we found out if the bleed damage from both Rupt/Garrote are affected by MuS both during its uptime and also after the duration of the buff? I ask because if it is the case that they do gain the 10% buff from MuS for the full duration of the initial application of the bleed even after MuS has fallen off wouldn't it be beneficial to have subterfuge to maximize the benefit of MuS? You should be able to open with Prem/Garrote/Rupt/Ambush...this would set you up to apply SnD after subterfuge falls off and you would maximize MuS and still have the full durtation of FW. I have not tested this so this is pure speculation and may not be correct.


DoTs do not update per-tick with personal buffs. This means that Rupture's damage is based off a snapshot of your current stats/buffs. You could also roll that buffed Rupture for an entire fight back when Eviscerate refreshed Rupture.

However, DoTs do update per-tick with target debuffs.

This doesn't justify using Garrote instead of Ambush, since both benefit equally from the MoS buff. Or does Garrote do more damage now? I'll assume it does not.

I'd imagine Ambush->Ambush->Rupture->Ambush->Hemorrhage during MoS->5pt Slice and Dice->Shadow Dance once FW wears off will be ideal.

NB, this is assuming DoTs and buffs/debuffs work the same way they did in Cataclysm. I haven't been keeping up to date with MoP changes.

#27 Shikuto

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 01:49 PM

Could the be put into the trinket section as well for comparison?

#28 Rfeann

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 06:16 PM

I ran into two problems when I tried to get the numbers on that luckydo:

1) I didn't have the trinket, and I hadn't seen any dummy-smack logs from anyone who had, so I don't know the exact (or even approximate) behavior of the proc.

2) I don't know how to quantify the EP value of DPS. :)

If anyone can help with either/both of those obstacles, I'd be happy to spit out some numbers for it.

#29 Haileaus

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 08:04 PM

Just did a few tests to verify some things we already know/assumed.

Hemo v. BS damage:
Hemo with bleed does more damage than BS without even taking into account crits.


CT v. Eviscerate damage:

CT does more damage than Eviscerate when a second target is in range, even without the second target having SV up. The primary target had full uptime on SV while each ability was being tested.

The damage of CT was actually comparable to that of Rupture. However, as I did this test on a level 60 target dummy, armor would probably make it so CT is not worth using instead of Rupture until there are 3 targets in range.

#30 Otoshimono

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 01:36 AM

I've heard that Shuriken Toss as a CP-builder works with subtlety as well, not just mutilate. Has anyone tried this?

#31 Haileaus

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:21 AM

Would be worth running some tests. Mastery would quite likely be above haste then in the stat priority, and we'd also need to see if Hemo would still be worth it if BS proves worse than ST.

#32 phup

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 02:31 PM

I've heard that Shuriken Toss as a CP-builder works with subtlety as well, not just mutilate. Has anyone tried this?


I don't understand that question. Is it implying that Shuriken Toss be used as a cp builder instead of mutilate or dispatch for assassination, or instead of backstab for sub?

#33 Serol

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:51 PM

I don't understand that question. Is it implying that Shuriken Toss be used as a cp builder instead of mutilate or dispatch for assassination, or instead of backstab for sub?


Shuriken Toss us already being considered as a combo point generator for Assassination, because of the higher cp/energy ratio than Mutilate. The question remains whether it will be a dps increase for sub as well. I would assume not because Backstab is still a considerable chunk of our damage, but further testing is needed.

#34 phup

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 06:57 PM

Are there sims or logs that show ST is viable for assassination? If so, it would be worth sharing them in the Assassination thread, because I've seen no mention of it there.

In SimC for T14H geared rogue...

Assassination goes from 116.8k to 102.5k when using ST instead of mutilate

So as not to completely sidetrack the Sub thread...
Sub goes from 116.0k to 112.8k when using ST instead of backstab, but that setup is reforged for haste and the rotation may not be ideal

The action priority lists I used were fairly quick and dirty mods of the existing ones, (I had to tweak places where they were relying on Anticipation talent). It may be possible to improve the sub rotation and reforging/gear to get ST closer to Backstab (or maybe pass it), but I doubt there are enough improvements to be made that could find another 15% in the Assassination rotation with ST (at least according to SimC).

#35 Haileaus

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 02:39 AM

I haven't checked the sub modeling on SimC extensively (just got it and not used to C++), but my hunch is that the real problem with ST over BS would be the loss of Anticipation. As I discuss in the guide there are a lot of optimizations you can make with Anticipation. Does anyone know what SimC does with Anticipation?

Also quick question about SimC: Where are the damage formulas located?

#36 Pathal

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 05:19 AM

The short answer? It's complicated.

The longer answer? They have a centralized system that pulls from their dbc extract ( http://simulationcra..._spell_data.inc ). You might have an easier time reading from https://github.com/d...gue/__init__.py instead. They're essentially the same information, maybe when I get some free time I'll write something up to explain how it's done a little clearer.

#37 phup

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 02:20 PM

The only place in the rotation SimC explicitly takes advantage of anticipation is to make sure it gets in an ambush at the end of shadow dance. It does not try to save up combo points during non-buffed stretches of the fight.

the following is the priority list they are currently using for a troll with engineering. If you aren't familiar, it just goes down the action list and does the first one that is possible to do that also has all its conditions met. The exceptions are the pool energy lines. it only pools energy if all the conditions for the next action are met except for the energy requirement.

Spoiler


#38 Haileaus

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 06:25 AM

Seems that Ambush and Garrote do about the same DPE coming straight from stealth, with Garrote potentially slightly ahead with no sunder armor debuff. FW of course makes Ambush far better DPE. Since Ambush gives more CP it is probably best to use it min-fight. However I'm wondering whether or not Garrote should be used in the first opener, as it applies SV (letting us get SnD and SV up quickly without using sub-5-CP ruptures or SnDs), and the lower energy cost potentially allows more abilities to fit into the MoS/FW window.

#39 Haileaus

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:54 PM

Edit: There are updated EP on Shadowcraft. As they are quite different I would like to see some tests done as to which are better. When I get the chance I'll do these, though if someone else can provide logs that would be greatly appreciated. Of specific peculiarity is the high increase in crit's EP.

The approximate weights in the new Shadowcraft: Agi>>Hit>Crit>Exp>Haste>Mastery

#40 Haileaus

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:56 PM

Quoted from Daegranos:

I can't reply to the thread as I've just made an account but I believe shadowcraft to display wrong EP values in this case.
I've done a small test on dummies with the old ( hit/exp > haste > all) reforges and the new reforges afterwards ( hit/exp > crit > all).
Here are my recount values, With haste i had a nuke of 60k whereas with crit I couldn't get much further than 55k.
It's not much of a proper test I agree but I think it does show that if crit is deemed better in the end it's not by much.

Haste: http://i.imgur.com/nElTD.png

Crit: http://i.imgur.com/oM7kW.png

Fight duration was about 3:20 each, just enough to get a full rotation of shadow blades going.


While target dummies aren't generally good for testing actual rogue dps since we like buffs a lot and in the case of sub rely on crits from other raiders, these results definitely seem to indicate that there's something wrong with the current Shadowcraft EP values. It's also worth noting that against a dummy crit gives us more benefit than it does in a raid due to not being able to rely on the raid for HaT procs.

After checking Shadowcraft with no buffs the EP values don't change enough to explain the results against the dummy.




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