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Subtle Ways of Subtlety

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#101 chrisirl


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Posted 04 May 2013 - 01:36 AM

Sub doesn't get enough combo points from HAT on a training dummy to get an accurate read. In an actual raid, you'd be able to fit a lot more eviscerates into your find weakness windows.

With 4pc, do you think it would be worthwhile to use shadow blades in conjunction with shadow dance? I realize that you wouldn't get the benefit of find weakness on your autoattacks, but maybe the vastly increased number of specials during dance/find weakness would outweigh that?

I sat in queue for over an hour waiting to test it in an LFR, the dummy was the only thing at my disposal. I'm aware of the shortcomings of testing subt on a dummy, but mainly wanted to give my opinion to the first "eye test" I had the chance to perform. Someone on the MMO-Champ forums posted side-by-side sims of before/after in BiS gear and it was 200k/210k I believe. A buff is a buff, but there are bigger problems with the spec like the positional requirements butting heads with encounter mechanics. It's nice to see them separating pve and pvp code, though, finally.

#102 Thuzada


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Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:33 PM

With 4pc, do you think it would be worthwhile to use shadow blades in conjunction with shadow dance? I realize that you wouldn't get the benefit of find weakness on your autoattacks, but maybe the vastly increased number of specials during dance/find weakness would outweigh that?

With the limited testing I've been doing with Sub lately (raid finder and when I forget to swap for the real raid) using shadowblades during shadowdance is incredibly worthwhile. Just a guess you can probably double the number of abilities you use (lower cost of everything, increased combo points, additional restless blades from addition finishers) by far outweighs the fact that it overlaps with find weakness debuff. All you're missing out on is essentially 12 seconds of ignoring armour (the only benefit of shadowblades that you sacrifice) during a regular phase. Without doing any math or modelling I can still say with 99% certainty that it is definitely worth using during shadowdance. Especially since the cooldowns line up every three.

As to the positional requirement of ambush I still have no idea why it exists in the game. It would be like forcing dispatch proc (not the main CP builder but a significant portion of damage) or RvS for combat to require being behind the target, it makes no sense in PvE. Maybe they can start using some of that separate PvE/PvP coding to give us Ambush from the front in raids.

#103 Nouk


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Posted 22 May 2013 - 12:16 PM

Hey Guys, SC suddenly doesn't show me ToB as BiS anymore, but RoO instead: showing even normal RoO better than HC ToB.

As i am unsure about how this Trinket performs in reality, and passed on a TF Version for our Feral Tank.

Has anyone some Logs or experience to share about RoO? I know we had a lot of speculation Pre-buff, but haven't seen new Logs etc.

#104 Palanuial


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Posted 22 May 2013 - 10:48 PM

Rune of Reorigination isn't properly modelled in Shadowcraft.

In general RoO isn't that good for any specc where the values of crit, haste, and mastery are 'close enough' together. Which, as far as I know, they are for subtlety.

Edit: Although since you can go for mastery>haste and then refresh SnD during the trinket-procc it might be decent for sub, depending on when the trinket procs.

#105 Haileaus


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Posted 12 June 2013 - 06:04 PM

Possible set bonuses are out.

Item - Rogue T16 2P Bonus (New) When you generate a combo point from Revealing Strike, Honor Amongst Thieves, or Seal Fate, your next combo point generating ability has its energy cost reduced by 5. Stacks up to 5 times.

Item - Rogue T16 4P Bonus (New) Killing Spree deals 10% more damage every time it strikes a target. Abilities against a target with Vendetta on it increase your mastery by 250 for 5 sec, stacking up to 20 times. Every 4 Backstabs, your Backstab is replaced with Ambush that can be used regardless of Stealth.

Both currently seem amazing for sub. The two piece because, well look at it, and the 4 piece probably has more to do with FW uptime than BS/Ambush damage difference, but both will help. We will need real numbers though. Some good discussion going on in the official forums. 5.4 Subtlety PvE T16 Bonus Implications - Forums - World of Warcraft

#106 Thuzada


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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:44 PM

I am extremely excited for these changes to Subtlety PvE, obviously things will need to be toned down a bit, but even the 2.5 energy per second is going to be huge for our output. If they would just remove the "behind the boss" positional requirements people could actually play this spec. That being said, Cloak and Dagger might be more useful than Shadowstep with an Ambush going off every 4 backstabs. I will almost definitely be using Sub as my main spec when we get to kill Garrosh

Something else to consider, Sub rogues might be able to conserve vanish if FW uptime is actually 100%

#107 Haileaus


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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:38 AM

On Positional Requirements and Unpopularity:

As long as there aren't more than one or two fights where you can't use Backstab or Ambush for the majority of encounter, I don't see any issue with the positional requirements. Generally speaking, although I haven't done any ToT, there's at most one boss where we can't get behind. Consider that Sub was fine for DS even though Ultraxion was a bitch. Of course, that's because sub had the highest damage, but that is how it should be - Sub has highest damage behind the target, lowest facing.

I think sub's main issue is chronic unpopularity. There are often questions on the official forums, even back in DS, asking what the PvE spec is - Assassination or Combat? - and never considering Sub. Of course, there's other reasons for Sub's unpopularity, it definitely has some issues in that it is less versatile than the other specs, but historically most people think it is significantly worse than it is.

EDIT: To clarify my statement about frontal targets, I meant to say that historically it has not been a large issue in raid tiers, which leads me to not be particularly concerned about position hindering the spec's viability. Of course this is only really useful for answering the question "what's wrong with sub?"

On FW Uptime and Saving Vanishes:

Interesting thought, we definitely won't know the uptime though for a while, but let's math some stuff out. Assume 25% haste and 100% uptime on SnD. Also, we are getting the equivalent of 5 energy every two seconds via our 2pc bonus. So, that's 12.5+4+2.5 = 19 energy/second. Let's bump that up to 20 energy/sec. Also, let's assume finishers cost 0 energy. This means we'd have to get 4 BS's off and an Ambush in the 10 seconds we have FW. That's 35*4+60 = 200 energy required over 10 seconds. If we have 20 energy/second, that actually works! Of course, the numbers came from my ass, but if the set bonus stays anything like it is now we could have an interesting time.

Of course, Vanish will still be very useful as it provides MoS, a longer FW, and Ambush might be better than BS even with the energy cost due to its higher damage and higher CP generation.

#108 Knarcus


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Posted 25 June 2013 - 09:39 AM

Copied over from the 5.4 discussion thread

I don't know where to post this (since there are three spec threads and I'm not sure which one might use Rune of Re-Origination) but I am the developer of Catus (feral simulator/reforger) and Zephyrus (monk reforger) and I just added Rogue support to Zephyrus.

Forum: The Fluid Druid - View topic - Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Download: https://dl.dropboxus...-LatestBeta.zip

I'm not sure what gems would be considered for each spec (so it's currently using what Windwalker uses) or if this is even useful, but if anyone is curious, give it a shot :P

The only spec which might get some use out of the Rune of Reorigination is sublety, because it can snapshot a high mastery value via Slice and Dice - a buff that increases auto attack speed, scaling with mastery and lasting for 36s baseline, 42s with T15 2p.
However, the value of this trinket has not really been determined for sub, because sub is, in T15 at least, in a bad position and is basically not played at all in PvE (see: Popular WoW Specs - GuildOx - WoW Rankings)
However, that might change with T16 and the new set boni. I tested your tool with my rogue and it puts mastery a little bit in front of crit and haste, which it should. For the purpose of reforging for Rune if works perfectly fine, thank you!
The rune however didn't drop for me, so I can't test my dps with it. Maybe somebody else could do that.

#109 raffy


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Posted 25 June 2013 - 11:15 PM

Zephyrus is an exhaustive 1:1:1 reforger so it will find you the best possible answer (no randomness) very quickly (typically under 1sec). It can permute all your gems and enchants, accounts for profession and racial bonuses, and handles all kinds of gear (random suffixes, upgrades, etc...). It works for all regions, you can import by character name alone, and easily export your results to Simc.

Do you happen to know what gems a Sub rogue would use with Rune? Would 1 Agility beat the value of 2 Secondaries?

#110 Knarcus


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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:47 AM

I don't know how familiar you are with the tools available for rogues in pve - for the most part we use shadowcraft almost exclusively which is a dps formulation tool that is capable of calculating ep values for rogues.
However, the Rune is not properly modeled and therefore the ep results for a character with the rune equipped are not accurate.
What I did now was to set my character to sublety within shadowcraft and switched some things around to optimize my gear without the Rune. For my EP values I got:
Agility - 3.744
Yellow Hit - 1.943
Expertise - 1.669
Haste - 1.549
Mastery - 1.290
Crit - 1.287
which is basically what you would expect because of Sinister Calling (+30% Agi to all Agi - Sinister Calling - Spell - World of Warcraft).
The results are not done with BiS Gear and not done for the Rune, but I think it will not differ much with Rune - agi will be ahead.

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