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Disc Priest - Mists of Pandaria


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#21 Genzen

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 05:47 AM

Does the whole 'real procs per minute' thing for enchants have any bearing on which enchant to use now?

#22 kouby

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:11 AM

[edited to correct some typos and copy/paste errors]

Intellect is not strong for throughput its actually rather weak. spirit below 13k is roughly 1.2 times better than intellect, except for gimmick encounters. For disc mastery is nearly 1 to 1 in value with intellect.


I don't understand how this can be the case when mastery only affects spirit shell and DA whereas spell power works on the whole tool set.

#23 Omanko

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 11:48 AM

Spirit Shell, Divine Aegis, and Power Word: Shield are usually the bulk of our healing.

I do agree though, and amend my previous statements, that this is not unequivocally true, and that the value of Mastery fluctuates a lot in the actual raiding environment. In MSV specifically, there are several encounters where Smite-healing is quite beneficial (Stone Guard, Gara'jal, Elegon), and the value of Mastery is not exactly high for that sort of strategy. Given that two of those fights also have mana-saving mechanics though, maybe they are just special cases outside of our usual discussion. It remains to be seen how the rest of this tier turns out, and how the actual mechanics affect our stat weights.

#24 Szeretlek

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:13 PM

Now you gain 200% from Rapture.
Ninja buff. Just checked it.
With manatide totem I got 70k mana from single shield. Thats insane.

And Rapture now can >>>multiproc<<<
Remember Lich King encounter?
You can gain mana from more then one shield with single rapture cd.

#25 Polopretress

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:53 AM

Wtf, are you sure for multi rapture ?

Also what about my comment for haste breaking points ?


note : also aegids up from 30% to 50%

#26 Perkeyone

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:45 AM

The stealth buff to aegis makes crit a much better stat. Crit scaling is up 15% for all spells that can crit (edit: except poh i guess)

#27 Szeretlek

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:04 AM

Wtf, are you sure for multi rapture ?

Absolutely.
Yesterday log from Feng:
LOG

Check time stamps at the left.
That log from my mate, who tested multirapture and it surely works like in WotLK

#28 Jacquetta

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:10 AM

Unless my combatlogs are bugged, I can confirm that wotlk-style multi-rapture is back, intended or not.

Not sure if this information has been posted, but the T14 2p decreases Flash Heal's mana cost from 17700 to 14160. This bumps Flash Heal's HPM to be closer to Greater Heal's, so I might start using Flash Heal over Greater Heal due to its higher HPCT too. Any opinions about that?

Edit: oh wow didn't realise that its my first post lol. Please be gentle.

#29 Havoc12

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 03:46 AM

I havent seen a single fight so far where my absorbs are less than 40% of my total healing. And the value of intellect needs to be adjusted down for overheal.

The new buff to rapture and aegis has propelled the value of mastery dramatically. PoH now adds 0.5*(1+mastery) so for me it is 72%. 18k aegis from a heal of 25k. A PoH on 5 targets adds nearly as much absorb as a pws.

Thus we now want to chain cast pws/PoH to build absorption shields for big hits, when we don't have spirit shell. Its always stack evangelism-->pop archangel -->spirit shell or 1:1 PWS/PoH spam.

We can now put absorbs at a minimum of 45-50% instead of a minimum of 40%, which now puts mastery slightly ahead of intellect at any overheal value greater than 20%.

This does affect spirit shell scaling though:

Normal PoH is now base*(1.5+0.5*mastery))*(1+crit), whereas spirit shell is base*(1+mastery)*(1+crit)*1.3

============================

Does the whole 'real procs per minute' thing for enchants have any bearing on which enchant to use now?


Windsong is ahead of jade spirit by my calculations. The biggest problem with jade spirit for disc is that we don't have a massive number of ticking HoTs like other classes so we won't proc it as quickly. I find that it procs every 55s. The other big problem with jade spirit is that it completely becomes unsynched with spirit shell. You will be lucky to get even 1 proc to overlap with spirit shell.

In constrast windsong has a pretty good uptime and it is very often active during spirit shell. Occasionally you get a massive boost from mastery and crit being active.

#30 Havoc12

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:03 PM

Delete plz double post

#31 Polopretress

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 04:45 PM

Havroc, i am not at all in line with your comments.
to conclude about the best between intel and mastery , you have to consider all the gameplay.

and i just say again than intel is better than any others HpS stats even if you consider only PWS / SS which are the spell where mastery reaches its top score compare to others spells.


There are 2 ways to prove it (or to try to prove you).
And if i am wrong , i will be pleased to have learn about this discussion.

First is to build an argumentation wich is done on spell mechanism feeling.(no datas but only feeling = qualitative method))
second one , more long and more complicated for everybody who is not familiar with maths is to analyse the formula of each spells to define how each HpS stat can increased its value. (quantitative method)

First, i will use the qualitative method/
(and i take new aegis at 50%)

If we take all spells available and sort them depending on their dependance to a HpS stats, for disc spec, there are 5 differents category of spell which will have different behavior on HpS stats

1/ All direct heals like Penance/GH/FH/BH/Renew/PoM/Heal/ the 3 talent spells @90.

These spells have a very poor scaling on mastery because it is necessary to crit to have aegis which is re-enforce by the mastery.
The stat priority for these spells are INT >> Crit > Haste >>> Mast

2/ Atonnement :
this spell could be considered as the first category but INT stat is more empowered.
That is why ,it is a category 2 of spell.

In fact, if you know its canonic formula scoreSP ~ 27 and 10 for smite and holy fire while scoreSP ~ 103 for the spell of category1.
That means that the SP scaling of spells which create the attonement (except for penance) is better than the SP scaling of spells belonging to the category 1

The stat priority for this spell is unchanged but INT is better : INT >>> Crit > Haste >>> Mast

3/ PoH
Even if there is a systematic aegis on each PoH, the scaling of the mastery was not very good before the up to 50%.
With this modification, mastery is scaling a litle bit under the Crit stat but there contribution to HpS are still poor compare to INT stat (i see a ratio around 3 times lower)

The stat priority for PoH is INT >> Haste >> Crit ~ Mast



4/ PWS : the mastery has a good scaling with PWS but is still under INT
we are not still @cata level stat where it was needed to have 179,28 points for 2,5%absorb.
Now, we need 600 whereas SP needs same value of point as Cata to have the same scaling. (ScoreSP of PWS is quite unchanged)

when i take my armory and stat value in buff raid (23900 SP and 15% crit and 53% mastery absorb)
+100 int = + 0,389% where +100 mast = +0,273%

The stat priority for PoH is Intel > Mastery > Haste >>> Crit (edit : maybe , i see somewhere that PWS absorb can now crit.
I did not checked it but even if there are some critical absorbs, CRIT stat will be still behind the others)

5/ Spirit Shell :
I will consider only PoH done under SS which is less favorable for Crit (+INT) stat than GH done under SS.


Scaling for this spell is the same as PWS for mastery and quite the same as PoH for the others stats.
The stat priority for PoH under SS is same as PWS : Intel > Mastery > Haste > Crit



If summarize the 5 categories :
Direct heals : INT >> Crit > Haste >>> Mast
Attonement : INT >>> Crit > Haste >>> Mast
PoH : INT >> Haste >> Crit > Mast
PWS : INT > Mast > Haste >>> Crit
SS : INT > Mast > Haste > Crit



Here , we are to the conclusion of this topic and my comment about that i do not agree with your conclusion.


1/
In any condition of gameplay INT is above Mastery for the same amount of point.

2/
For gems only , we can discuss.... but my conclusion is the same except if
- we take into account the Overheal which reduce the INT stat compare to Mastery stat (and only if absorb made by SS and PWS do not depop)
or
- Gamplay is full oriented PWS because margin of INT stat is not suffisant to compensate the double value on mastery gem



in fact, as the secondaries stat can have double points compare to primary stats (80 int, 160 mast or crit or haste), we must analize more accuratly what is the best choice depending on the gameplay.

I say that on standard disc gameplay, even if there are a lot of absorb in the total heal, INT stat is still better than secondaries stats (including Mastery) on gems even if we do not have the double bonus of value on INT gems.

of course , i considerer a standard disc gameplay which will result in 60 to 70% heal done by Aegis/SS/PoH/PWS.

Also if the gameplay is based only on PWS used for rapture and PoH with and without SS with no others spells, INT is still the best because of the low stat weight of mastery on PoH.

The only one combinaison i see for Mastery on gems which is better than INT is still a gameplay full PWS oriented.

(Sorry for my langage error if i did a lot but my post was very long!)



edit :

Originally Posted by Havoc12
Normal PoH is now base*(1.5+0.5*mastery))*(1+crit), whereas spirit shell is base*(1+mastery)*(1+crit)*1.3


Yes i agree on theses formula and you will easely check that dats i have provided are true.

Improvement by adding mastery on PoH = (POH with mastery2 - PoH with mastery1) / PoH with mastery1
....
((1.5 + 0.5*mastery2)-(1.5+0.5*mastery1))/(1.5+0.5*mastery1)
...
0,5*(mastery2-mastery1)/(1.5+0.5*mastery1)
...
50%* (2,5%*Mastery points added/600) / (150% + 50%*%Mastery)

For example, a player with 4920 mastery point , +100 mastery points added = +.118%

same operation with Critical will provide you +0,15199% for +100 Crit point
same operation with INT will provide you +0,429243 % for +100 INT point

For PoH : Crit > Mast
so
INT >> Haste >> Crit > Mast is true.

if we have to integrate overheal, result can be different and depend on how is done the PoH spam (with raid full life or not)


Also, i am not convinced by SS : INT > Mast > Haste > Crit for Haste behavior since Haste breakpoint cannot be reached easely to have an additional PoH under SS proc.
and also, since this breakpoint is reached each 2 times with Power infusion proc.

I would prefer to considerer for SS : INT > Mast > Crit >> Haste

#32 Szeretlek

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:40 AM

Your calculations are wrong because SS formulas that I discovered before:

For Direct Heals:
SS_Absorb=AvgHeal*(1+Crit)*(1+Mastery)*(1+0,3*Crit)
For PoH:
SS_Absorb=AvgHeal*(1+Crit)*(1+Mastery)*1.3

are wrong after some changes from Blizz

For PoH it should be
SS_Absorb=AvgHeal*(1+Crit)*(1+Mastery)*1,630844

Change of that last coefficient doesnt relevant, but anyway.

And for direct heal SS it seems like totally wrong and I have no idea what it should be.
Just dont use it =)
But after some calculations I can absolutely assure you that for Direct Heals SS it has to be like that:
SS_Absorb=AvgHeal*(1+Mastery)*Fun(Crit)
SS_Absorb for direct heals has linear scaling from Mastery and AvgHeal(read: spellpower) and some crazy Function from Crit, which I dont know.

#33 Polopretress

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 01:23 AM

For PoH it should be
SS_Absorb=AvgHeal*(1+Crit)*(1+Mastery)*1,630844
Change of that last coefficient doesnt relevant, but anyway.

you mean that formula has changed since hotfix ?

anyway, as you wrote, as it is a constant coef, it does not impact at all the result i wrote in the previous post.
All is still correct even with these modifications on SS.

edit : only fun(crit) can modified formula of improvement when SS is used with GH.

#34 Szeretlek

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 07:51 AM

you mean that formula has changed since hotfix ?

Just test it and you will see. I dont know when and why Blizz made that stealth fix to SS

#35 Polopretress

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 05:32 PM

I have just tested and i confirm no change on live.

SS_Absorb=AvgHeal*(1+Crit)*(1+Mastery)*1,3 is still verified

I think i understand why you find 1.6...
it is because, you have forget that PoH has been improved by 25% the first hotfix.

1.3*1.25 = 1.625

#36 Szeretlek

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:22 PM

I think i understand why you find 1.6...
it is because, you have forget that PoH has been improved by 25% the first hotfix.

1.3*1.25 = 1.625

wow. Yeap, you are right, tooltip was not changed after hotfixes.
What about Direct Heals SS?

#37 ohcrocsle

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:50 PM

Posts below explain why I shouldn't be posting here.

#38 Szeretlek

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:42 PM

SS healing from direct heals is just Heal * (1+mastery), so to include criticals it is AvgHeal * (1+crit) * (1+mastery). DA doesn't proc off of "crit" spirit shell casts because it's not a critical heal.

I tested it many times and it is not true.

#39 Polopretress

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:36 AM

i agree with Szeretlek

My understanding is that:
600 mastery rating is always (at level 90) a 2.5% increase in dmg absorb for PWS.
600 Int is an increase of 600*1.871 = 1122.6 dmg absorb, which is ~1.02% at current levels and will be lower as int increases with gear.

Sorry Ohcrocsle.
I have difficulty to follow you, maybe due to my native langage, and i cannot understand what you wrote and from where you have taken these values.
Could you explain ?

i supposed you speak about PWS.
600 mastery bring you 2,5% of additional absorb damage but this 2,5% is right compare to the value that you have with no mastery.
To have the real improvement of 600 mastery, it is necessary to calculate it with your present gear.

And where come from '1.871" and "1.02%" ?

#40 darisarix

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:41 PM

And where come from '1.871"


PW:S has an 87.1% spellpower coefficient, which is where that comes from (pedantically: 87.09 per simulationcraft source code).

// direct_power_mod = 0.87; // hardcoded into tooltip
direct_power_mod = 1.8709; // matches in-game actual value




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