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Paladin Simple Questions: Lost in the Mist

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#21 Ronark

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 05:13 PM

While we're at it, having 7.5% Expertise and 7.5% Hit will also obtain15% Spell Hit for Boss Level mobs.

The first 7.5% of Expertise caps you for Dodge, but any expertise will give you the game percentage of Spell Hit and Parry reduction-- This is critical for Protection to ensure that their Holy Power generators are never missed, dodged, or parried.
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#22 Lacroix

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 07:56 AM

After just religiously gemming because my stats are 2 haste > 1 str I find myself at a 490 ilvl. In simulationcraft haste has become 1.5 > 1 str, but when I switch between hit/haste pants and my tier legs the value of haste fluctuates drastically from 2 > 1 Str to 1.5 > 1 Str. What I'm asking is, in the ret guide on these forums it states haste will only become better as ilvl rises, but at this moment it looks like haste (in my gear at least) will lose out to str sooner than later. I also simmed a pally with a 502 ilvl from my server and his simulationcraft value of haste was lower than mine. at what point do we gem str instead of haste; Is it when point of gemming str instead of haste. Has this happened to anyone else? Is the statement about haste only need to be defined as if 2 haste>1str then gem haste and if 2 haste < 1 Str gem strength that cut and dry?

#23 Anvilandy

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:51 PM

As I haven't personally experienced this issue, I'm inclined to say it's not a global issue with WoW or Ret Paladin. You clearly state you do not always have this issue - at least some portion of the time this problem does not exist and your DPS does not suffer. As such, I would try to track down what is unusual when it does occur.

Does this only occur during peak times (such as early evening local-time)? This could be your ISP (de-)prioritizing packets, essentially creating network lag specifically to WoW (a tunneling service could resolve, if true).

Is it more in 25s than 10s or 5s? If so it's probably spell effects. Especially if this started to occur right after a video driver update (new is not always better). Try dialing down the graphics or even rolling to an older version of the video drivers. Even top end video cards sometimes have issues. Remember WoW is over 7 years old. How they handle graphics and how cutting edge video cards handle graphics aren't always ideally compatible.

If not the above and more or less random, try disabling various mods. If you can normally get this to occur every LFR, then turn off every single mod and run an LFR mod-naked and see if it occurs. If no issue without mods, then you can start the long process of tracking down which is the culprit. Comparing what mods you use to your friend could help narrow down the common possibilities.


First of all, thanks a lot for the complexe answer...

Let me go through it one step at a time.

I cannot tell when exactly it happens, because there simply is no pattern. It can happen all the time in our raiding time from 1830 to 2330.
Also, the 2 people are suffering from that, are home in seperate parts of europe. We got switzerland and Germany.

Where does it happen? Sorry for not mentioning that in my original post, but it only!!! happens in 25 ppl raid - so mainraid or lfr. But i have never faced the issue with my restoration shaman on lfr... this just keeps me thinking its the paladins fault in particular.

About the video driver - I have this problem now for the time of like 3 or 4 nVidia software updates wich I all got immediatly on release day... having a new one did not influence the issue in any way either better or worse.

And about the addons... I will try out what you said, but I do not think, that this is the reason. I only use deadly boss modes, bartender, weakauras and tidyplates when I'm raiding by a total of 64 gigabyte of RAM. All four are really mainstream addons and they get updated very frequently so I do really think, there is nothing wrong with them - but i will check what you said anyways.


---

So I guess what I am trying to say is, even though it is highly appreciated, your answer does not seem to solve my problem at all...

Maybe it is interesting, that in the few bosses that I have to tank (stone guards hc, unsok hc, shekzer hc and lei shi hc) the issue does not occur.

No matter what I do, all points to the retribution spec really... and i am getting pretty desperate.

It just sucks, because as soon as one of us has this proglem, there are like 15 - 30 k dps between two ret paladins with equal gear who usally are appart the ammount of 1 or 2 more TV crits :S

#24 Exemplar

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:29 PM

I cannot tell when exactly it happens, because there simply is no pattern.

Where does it happen? Sorry for not mentioning that in my original post, but it only!!! happens in 25 ppl raid - so mainraid or lfr. But i have never faced the issue with my restoration shaman on lfr... this just keeps me thinking its the paladins fault in particular.


Based on your response, I'm inclined to a diagnosis of visual effects slowdown. As a Ret you are in melee range, staring at the boss with a billion spell effects hitting it. 25man/LFR becomes incredibly worse as the spell effects are more numerous. As a Resto shaman you don't have your nose in the boss's hindquarters with visuals taking up 3/4 of your screen with every single particle/detail being rendered. It might not seem like much, but it's an extremely common cause of game lag.

I recommend turning all video settings to the lowest possible, run an LFR and see if it's any better.
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#25 Anvilandy

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 04:59 PM

Based on your response, I'm inclined to a diagnosis of visual effects slowdown. As a Ret you are in melee range, staring at the boss with a billion spell effects hitting it. 25man/LFR becomes incredibly worse as the spell effects are more numerous. As a Resto shaman you don't have your nose in the boss's hindquarters with visuals taking up 3/4 of your screen with every single particle/detail being rendered. It might not seem like much, but it's an extremely common cause of game lag.

I recommend turning all video settings to the lowest possible, run an LFR and see if it's any better.



Ok I'll try out what you say but like I mentioned already, I spend lots of money into my computer to keep it as modern as it gets, and so many people with like average PC's and 30 FPS in 25 man encounter do not have those lag issues.

But i will try, since something has to cause the entire issue at all... thanks for your respond again.

edit: well I just thought of something else-> you said, its because in melee range, all these effects and stuff happen. How come, its only when I'm dpsing, and not when tanking? and it also happens in fights, where there is not really much of aoe effecting from the boss...

but like I said, I will still try what you suggested!

#26 duebasta

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 01:10 PM

Not sure if this will help or not, but I found when I was looking for some lag issues that only happened on my ret pally that where my graphics were set and my refresh rate of my monitor was the cause. You can have the best built computer in the world but if your monitor's refresh rate isn't also top notch it will seem to lag you out when your really not, because it won't keep up. Check it out, I got a new better monitor and my issue went away.

#27 Traison

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:11 AM

Hey I was wondering, is it better to use:
1) AW+GoAK, AW, AW, AW+GoAK and delay the next GoAK for 1 minute to line up with the 4th AW.
0min AW GOAK
2min AW
4min AW
6min AW GOAK

2) Or is it better to go AW+GoAK, AW, AW+GoAK there fore delaying the AW by 1 minute to line up with the 2nd GoAK.
0min AW GOAK
2min AW
5min AW GOAK
7min AW

3) Or lastly, just use them all on CD ASAP.
0min AW GOAK
2min AW
4min AW
5min GOAK
6min AW

This is something that I really haven't been able to find any info on, I am pretty sure its not the 3rd as that just seems like a big waste, and I am kind of leaning towards the 2nd one as it gets the big CDs out faster. Might it depend on fight length? Sorry if the question is kind of confusing :\

#28 Charybdis

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 03:03 AM

Cooldowns are usually best used such that you're not wasting them. Don't delay a CD if it means you'll get one less use of it during an encounter, unless the situation there would mean that you'd get a much bigger benefit. For example, if you could use AW twice, but couldn't line it up with a +200% damage phase both times, it is probably best to line that single use up because it will grant a bigger benefit damage-wise than using it twice but not with the buff.

If you only get to use GoAK twice during a fight, and there are no notable encounter-specific times to save it, you're probably better off with your first situation of delaying it a minute. It will greatly depend on not only the encounter, but how your group does the encounter too.

#29 BentBlyant

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:03 AM

^^^^^

What he said. My opinion is that you take the encounter time (roughly) and based on that you estimate x GoAK and line up as many AWs and other CDs as you can.

#30 nbartley

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 04:52 AM

Alright, simple question.

If a prot paladin is appropriately setup to be hit cap, with quite a bit of expertise, as per askmrrobot, should their effective damage be pretty poor unless they are in a raid situation where they are taking damage?

Reason I ask. I have an offspec prot set. It's at about 468 or so (should be active on my armor right now). As that level goes up, I find I do less and less damage in a dungeon as compared to any of the other tank types I have seen while dpsing. Unless there is a good pile of trash to pickup, I'm scoring abysmally low on dps, which is frustrating.

Can anything be done to increase my damage, or is this just a case where I need to L2P a bit more....

#31 Rrui

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:57 AM

If a prot paladin is appropriately setup to be hit cap, with quite a bit of expertise, as per askmrrobot, should their effective damage be pretty poor unless they are in a raid situation where they are taking damage?


You're not hit capped & lack nearly 6% expertise, so you're going to see a lot of parries and some misses.

I find MrRobot to be pretty terrible at stat allocation. Use the in game addon reforgelite.

#32 promdates

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:05 AM

Alright, simple question.

If a prot paladin is appropriately setup to be hit cap, with quite a bit of expertise, as per askmrrobot, should their effective damage be pretty poor unless they are in a raid situation where they are taking damage?

Reason I ask. I have an offspec prot set. It's at about 468 or so (should be active on my armor right now). As that level goes up, I find I do less and less damage in a dungeon as compared to any of the other tank types I have seen while dpsing. Unless there is a good pile of trash to pickup, I'm scoring abysmally low on dps, which is frustrating.

Can anything be done to increase my damage, or is this just a case where I need to L2P a bit more....


Our damage without vengeance is pretty abyssal. I've noticed whenever I'm really high on the dmg meters after a boss, it's because I'm spending a lot of it with high vengeance.
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#33 BentBlyant

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 12:40 PM

You're not hit capped & lack nearly 6% expertise, so you're going to see a lot of parries and some misses.

I find MrRobot to be pretty terrible at stat allocation. Use the in game addon reforgelite.


How can you say that MrRobot (which weighs all stat allocations and provides the 'best') is worse than an addon that stubbornly attempts to get exactly what you say?

Particularly for DPS classes, having 7.40 or 7.50 hit makes a very small difference to the overall performance, so if you are sacrificing a large loss of say, haste you stubbornly getting hit capped is a dps loss.

Likewise we could be traiding an illogical amount of defensive stats as a tank in order to get capped. The best way to use AMR is to use Theck's values he posted earlier and click optimize. That way it gets you to the best overall score, not just getting to a specific hit/exp number.

#34 bromli

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 07:36 PM

How can you say that MrRobot (which weighs all stat allocations and provides the 'best') is worse than an addon that stubbornly attempts to get exactly what you say?

Particularly for DPS classes, having 7.40 or 7.50 hit makes a very small difference to the overall performance, so if you are sacrificing a large loss of say, haste you stubbornly getting hit capped is a dps loss.

Likewise we could be traiding an illogical amount of defensive stats as a tank in order to get capped. The best way to use AMR is to use Theck's values he posted earlier and click optimize. That way it gets you to the best overall score, not just getting to a specific hit/exp number.



Hit and expertise ARE defensive stats. Theck and others have extensively discussed the reasons, and everything suggests that these are in fact the best defensive stats. Gaining x amount of expertise is equally valuable no matter how much you already have (under cap).

Additionally, while a dps might want to stay just below the cap, as hitting the cap might waste some stats, a prot paladin specifically would likely not want to do this. SotR requires 3+ HP to use. If you have 2, and miss a CS, you don't get 2/3 of a SotR before the next attack you needed to mitigate. You get nothing, and may die. When you're dead, and the raid is wiping, and you just wasted 15 minutes of raid time, the fact that "on average" you didn't die is little consolation.

#35 nbartley

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:38 AM

Our damage without vengeance is pretty abyssal. I've noticed whenever I'm really high on the dmg meters after a boss, it's because I'm spending a lot of it with high vengeance.


Okay, so my next question is this,

As vengeance scales based on being hit, and goes up regardless of mitigation, we should (assuming the healer isn't useless) be tanking as many mobs as possible at once to keep that number up. However, in the dungeon often you end up in a boss fight where there are no adds, and the tank DPS drops radically. How do we increase our damage in that situation? It's nice that for a boss fight you'll have all your cooldowns available to try and ramp up early, but it seems that even w/ boss vengeance we don't really get a decent damage value as compared to monk/dk/warrior tanks.

Also,

On the topic of hit cap. That .21% means that on 1000 hits, two will miss. That number probably fudges up a bit due to RNG, but i see that as an acceptable chance to miss. Sure it could end up being the one hit I desperately needed, to use a SotR, to save my arse, but I'm more likely to make 100k gold in a day than encounter that situation :)

As for expertise though... if I swapped all my gems to expertise/whatever to get the socket bonuses, I still wouldn't be able to reach EXP cap. I think if I switched them out for all Expertise only gems I get pretty close, but lose all the other benefits. Is it really THAT worth it to be exp capped that losing all those side benefits is worth it? I can do with losing the stamina from most of the gems though, as I'm at 500k, which I suspect is overkill for heroics.

#36 Ronark

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:11 AM

In a raid setting, Capped Hit and Expertise, as others have pointed out, is your number 1 priority. There are many fights in raids from telegraphed attacks that not having that 50% damage reduction or so can and WILL hurt (Triple Puncture, Bladelord's assault, Will of the Emperor during Titan Gas, etc).

For 5 mans and heroics, not so much. There will be significantly less situations where you are at risk of instantly dying, assuming you adhere to that fight's mechanics.

Ways to up your DPS? Glyphs like Focused Shield will help, as will having a Strength DPS trinket, or DPS gear in general. That being said, your job in 5 mans is not to put DPS first, but as a task to focus on after you have your mitigation and knowledge that you won't die.
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#37 Exemplar

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 04:21 PM

If Heroic DPS becomes an issue, you always have the old school alternative of swapping out some items for DPS gear. Not getting hit enough for Vengeance? Intentionally reduce your avoidance and boost Crit/Haste. You could gem the DPS gear for Str and also swing your core stats a bit. Never a perfect answer, but potentially useful when you heavily outgear Heroics.
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#38 Ehnoah

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 07:45 PM

What you think about the 2er Bonus of our T15 set with block?

What you preffer me on Raid Bosses? Keep Block up, or more Shield Buff?

#39 arnoldr45

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 11:19 PM

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding why you prioritize 5HP TV over 3-HP TV. Can you explain this please?

#40 Pulout

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:33 AM

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding why you prioritize 5HP TV over 3-HP TV. Can you explain this please?



At 5HP, your holy power is maxed and any action that doesn't result in the usage of HP would result in us over-generating and wasting holy power.





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