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[Feral-Cat] Mists of Pandaria 5.2


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#21 Montecorex

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:35 AM

I'll have to give that a shot in a raid when I read this post I went and tried it on a target dummy, and I was seeing 270k crits with an agi weapon and no int potion obviously no raid buffs... pretty insane stuff.

#22 Jagger911

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:49 PM

An agility potion actually benefits you more than an intellect one, also use a macro to switch to a spellpower weapon when popping HotW. For reference, click damage tab in the link below.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

#23 RareBeast

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:02 PM

have heard rumors that Ovale is supporting DoC... I just can't seem to find the download. Leafkiller said it was on curse, but the one on curse doesn't seem to support DoC at all with no options to do so.


The best way is to install Nerien's Ovale Scripts with Ovale which gives you the option of replacing the default Ovale script with Leafkillers script.

#24 Rainman5419

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:10 AM

An addition question that the OP didn't seem to cover was DoC's interaction with a FB refreshed Rip. There's a bunch of possible scenarios how this does or doesn't work.

#25 Montecorex

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:56 PM

I am still wondering if anyone has any confirmation on thrash actually being better than shred for clearcasting procs?

This Simulationcraft Results shows thrash as almost twice the dmg per execute time as shred. I see almost no one using thrash over shred for their clearcasting procs in logs, I haven't been doing this myself at all, and I have seen a few pretty decent ranks; I realize normal mode ranks mean nothing, but at this point with this many options for feral dps what ever is parsing highest consistently is what people will go with not what sims the highest. Just wondering if anyone has any more insight on this thrash topic thanks again.

#26 Jazdia

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:37 PM

I am still wondering if anyone has any confirmation on thrash actually being better than shred for clearcasting procs?

This Simulationcraft Results shows thrash as almost twice the dmg per execute time as shred. I see almost no one using thrash over shred for their clearcasting procs in logs, I haven't been doing this myself at all, and I have seen a few pretty decent ranks; I realize normal mode ranks mean nothing, but at this point with this many options for feral dps what ever is parsing highest consistently is what people will go with not what sims the highest. Just wondering if anyone has any more insight on this thrash topic thanks again.


Thrash most definitely does more DPE than shred, you are correct, and thus it is a better use of clearcasting procs if you are not going to lose out on CP that will cause you to drop Rip or SR or clip another Thrash.

That said, I can't speak for everyone, but when I dps, I'm mashing the button of the next ability in my priority list so that the ability will be executed as soon as the GCD is up with as little delay as possible. This can cause a clearcasting proc to be spent on another ability, which is often Shred.

#27 Hamlet

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 04:33 PM

Coming over Moonkin thread--I'm trying to figure out some basic info about HotW DPS. I've figured out what my Agility and other stats are with it active, but I need to know how that translates into damage of Mangle, Rake, FB, and white DPS. I see the OP by and large references SimCraft for the underlying math--is anyone around here the person who manages the Cat SimCraft and/or knows the basic formulae for determining the damage these abilities do based on your attack power?

#28 a civilian

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:49 PM

I am still wondering if anyone has any confirmation on thrash actually being better than shred for clearcasting procs?

This Simulationcraft Results shows thrash as almost twice the dmg per execute time as shred. I see almost no one using thrash over shred for their clearcasting procs in logs, I haven't been doing this myself at all, and I have seen a few pretty decent ranks; I realize normal mode ranks mean nothing, but at this point with this many options for feral dps what ever is parsing highest consistently is what people will go with not what sims the highest. Just wondering if anyone has any more insight on this thrash topic thanks again.


I just thrash if it has fewer than 3 seconds remaining and I don't need the CP; I don't really worry about clearcasts. If you don't need the CP, it's definitely worth casting over shred whether or not you have a clearcast. Doing pure single-target (not phasing) on Gara'jal I ended up doing 70k dps with 71% thrash uptime on the boss.

#29 Jazdia

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:28 PM

Coming over Moonkin thread--I'm trying to figure out some basic info about HotW DPS. I've figured out what my Agility and other stats are with it active, but I need to know how that translates into damage of Mangle, Rake, FB, and white DPS. I see the OP by and large references SimCraft for the underlying math--is anyone around here the person who manages the Cat SimCraft and/or knows the basic formulae for determining the damage these abilities do based on your attack power?



I'm not 100% sure about these formulae, but they were the best I could come up with while here at work. I have the exact ones at home I believe. Some of this is based on rooting through the source code of the pre-release version of simcraft I'm compiling to do my tests with HotW.

1 Agility increases AP by 2 and crit by a small amount I haven't calculated.
AP increases white damage per second by one per 14 AP.
Thus if you have 14,000 int, gain 14,000 agility due to that, you gain 1,000 dps.

This calculation is simplified for us because cat weapon speed is always 1s without accounting for haste, so 400% weapon damage is fairly easy to calculate.

Formulae:
EDIT: I initially gave the wrong rip formula.

Mangle:
400% weapon damage + 62 level scaling flat damage

Rake:
118 + .0736*AP initial damage (Unsure)
590 + .368*AP damage every 3s over 15 seconds

FB:
1 point : 1077 to 1447  + 0.196*AP
2 points: 1839 to 2209 + 0.392*AP
3 points: 2601 to 2971 + 0.588*AP
4 points: 3363 to 3733 + 0.784*AP
5 points: 4125 to 4495 + 0.980*AP

Rip:
1 point : ((433 + .0484*AP) * 8) damage every 2s over 16 sec.
2 points: ((753 + .0968*AP) * 8) damage every 2s over 16 sec.
3 points: ((1073 + .1452*AP * 8) damage every 2s over 16 sec.
4 points: ((1393 + .1936*AP * 8) damage every 2s over 16 sec.
5 points: ((1713 + .2420*AP * 8) damage every 2s over 16 sec.


#30 Hamlet

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:41 PM

A ballpark is fine really, I'm probably not doing a whole detailed model of this. Although anything exact you have handy when you get home would still be interesting.

We can't actually cast Rip as balance spec, just Rake, Mangle, FB, Swipe, Maim, and Pounce.

So questions
1) FB will do double that if I spend 50 energy right?
2) All physical damage that's not a bleed (so anything that's not Rake) is reduced by 30% or so by boss armor?
3) Is there still some interaction where Rake buffs Mangle or vice versa or something like that?
4) So each non-crit white hit should be (weaponDPS + AP/14), before armor?

#31 Jazdia

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 08:05 PM

A ballpark is fine really, I'm probably not doing a whole detailed model of this. Although anything exact you have handy when you get home would still be interesting.

We can't actually cast Rip as balance spec, just Rake, Mangle, FB, Swipe, Maim, and Pounce.

So questions
1) FB will do double that if I spend 50 energy right?
2) All physical damage that's not a bleed (so anything that's not Rake) is reduced by 30% or so by boss armor?
3) Is there still some interaction where Rake buffs Mangle or vice versa or something like that?
4) So each non-crit white hit should be (weaponDPS + AP/14), before armor?



- Yes, FB can consume up to 25 energy to do up to 100% more damage. Thus if you have 30 energy when you cast it, it will do 120% damage while if you cast it at 50 energy it will do 200% damage.

- All physical damage is mitigated by armor, bleed damage is physical but is treated as a different form of damage that is not mitigated by armor.

- No, there is no longer any interaction between Mangle and Rake. Mangle no longer buffs bleeds. Swipe, however, is increased by 20% on bleeding targets.

- That is correct. Weapon dps = weapon damage + AP/14. Since our swing timer is always 1s base, weapon dps = weapon damage at 0 haste.

#32 Hamlet

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 08:11 PM

Nice. That's probably good enough detail; I just have to go back and figure out how this handles caster weapons and one-handers.

Have you guys looked into HotW for Moonfire/Wrath spam at all?

#33 Jazdia

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 08:24 PM

Nice. That's probably good enough detail; I just have to go back and figure out how this handles caster weapons and one-handers.

Have you guys looked into HotW for Moonfire/Wrath spam at all?


Moonfire is horrible, because we gain nature spellpower, not arcane/all spellpower.
Wrathspam with HotW is currently our highest dps spec. We can bomb out 150k-250k+ wraths every 1.6 seconds with haste reforging for 45 seconds.

In fact, I've been running 100k iteration sims on various priority lists to get stat distributions and I just finished 15 minutes ago! I'm in the process of updating the original post. Yay for being able to simulate on machines with 64 cores, designed to run proton therapy simulations!

#34 a civilian

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 08:42 PM

4) So each non-crit white hit should be (weaponDPS + AP/14), before armor?


Non-crit non-glance. Glancing blows still exist, and unless they've changed, against raid bosses they occur with ~24% chance (on swing) and do 75% (?) damage.

#35 Leafkiller

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 11:19 PM

Coming over Moonkin thread--I'm trying to figure out some basic info about HotW DPS. I've figured out what my Agility and other stats are with it active, but I need to know how that translates into damage of Mangle, Rake, FB, and white DPS. I see the OP by and large references SimCraft for the underlying math--is anyone around here the person who manages the Cat SimCraft and/or knows the basic formulae for determining the damage these abilities do based on your attack power?


aggixx/Pawkets is the primary maintainer of the simulationcaft script for ferals (Tinderhoof and I have been working with him on it, but he is doing the bulk of the work and all of checkins). He does have a working implementation of HotW checked into the code base with the exception of weapon swapping, so you will have to do the trick of adding spell power to some item to test this.

There was a new release of simulationcraft today (505-2) that should include his changes. I noticed that it does not have HotW support in the action priority list (it is using a DoC rotation). I will ask aggixx to share his HotW action priority list.

@Hamlet - If you want to talk to aggixx about his HotW work and how HotW might impact Balance, here is a link to the primary thread where we discuss feral/simulationcraft stuff: The Fluid Druid - View topic - Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion.

#36 Andanas

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 01:04 AM

I don't know if it's just me, as I have not seen anyone else mention it, but in your glyphs section, you have Glyph of Moonfire listed, although it does link to Glyph of Savagery.

#37 Jazdia

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 01:28 AM

I don't know if it's just me, as I have not seen anyone else mention it, but in your glyphs section, you have Glyph of Moonfire listed, although it does link to Glyph of Savagery.


As mentioned in the text above it, go with the tooltips, the wowhead item id cache is outdated.

#38 Hoedown

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:06 AM

Hitting our first raid tomorrow and curious as to what people are finding vs raid bosses. Hit and expertise cap or go with what simcraft says and ignore those caps?

#39 Montecorex

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:30 AM

Moonfire is horrible, because we gain nature spellpower, not arcane/all spellpower.
Wrathspam with HotW is currently our highest dps spec. We can bomb out 150k-250k+ wraths every 1.6 seconds with haste reforging for 45 seconds.

In fact, I've been running 100k iteration sims on various priority lists to get stat distributions and I just finished 15 minutes ago! I'm in the process of updating the original post. Yay for being able to simulate on machines with 64 cores, designed to run proton therapy simulations!


So is there any way you can post how the stat weights change with and without wrath? I was assuming that mastery would still be the best but haste is better for that 45 second cd twice a fight? This is very believable I am just looking for whatever piece of evidence lead you to this.

#40 Erdluf

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 01:47 PM

Mangle = 400% weapon?

Not seeing it in the log linked from http://elitistjerks....p5/#post2202817 . Melee 12k, Mangle 31k. Am I misunderstanding that formula? Is it possible that Mangle gets 4x your weapon DPS, before AP?

Also, does the direct damage from Rake match the tick damage (and ignore armor)? It looks like it in that log, but bamfkinhero had a log where ticks did significantly more damage. Is there a bleed buff I'm not seeing?

Edit: Bamfkinhero log linked from http://elitistjerks....36/#post2203187 . 58k rake hits, 70k ticks. Edit2: Looking at the log in more detail, his damage has some pretty wide variation.




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