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[Feral-Cat] Mists of Pandaria 5.2


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#41 Hamlet

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 05:29 PM

edit: Oy, had some more tests trying to work out white DPS. The part nobody mentioned above was that Cat Form doubles white damage :P .

Beyond that, it looks like HotW doesn't change weapon DPS in any way beyond the AP increase.

#42 Phaidon

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:26 PM

Hey everyone,

I was trying to figure out the stat values for reforging for my gear (ilvl around 460, so basically for pre-raid gear, spec'd HotW and SotF), but ran into some problems with Simcraft. Probably because the details are pretty much rocket science to me (even though I thought I read that HotW was correctly implemented in the newest version of Simcraft?), I couldn't get it to use HotW actively for wrath-spam (preferably with swapping weapons), and I don't understand the mechanics well enough to just feel safe in assuming that the values will be (close to) the same as those for ilvl 509 BiS-gear in the main post. So I hope someone can help me out: does it, at pre-raid gear, pay off to go for haste (which, I believe, would generally suit me well) > crit > mastery = hit = exp (not dumping hit because it helps me not mess up my rotation)?

Thanks in advance.

#43 aggixx

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 01:51 AM

You should be able to get a hold of me through EJ just fine as well. I wasn't aware there was any meaningful feral discussion going on over here so I hadn't really checked.

@Jazdia: I'd be interested in seeing what profile you used to run HotW tests, as your scale factors seem to be somewhat (although not drastically) different than what I've gotten.

This is the profile I've been using for T14H BiS HotW: #!./simc chardev=1709 name="Druid_Feral_T14H_HotW" origin="unknown" level - Pastebin.com

And here's a 25k iteration scale factor run of above profile: Simulationcraft Results
More iterations could be done as some of the stats are too close to each other to really be distinguishable (such as if Crit is actually better than Haste at a certain point).

#44 Montecorex

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 04:18 AM

Hitting our first raid tomorrow and curious as to what people are finding vs raid bosses. Hit and expertise cap or go with what simcraft says and ignore those caps?


Typically this is a preference thing when the stat weights are as close together as they are now for the pre-raid gear. I am going with close to caps to reduce rng but am up in the air when it comes to haste vs mastery for HotW.

#45 Smoketreez

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:01 AM

Elegon:

Instead of opening with bleeds you should start the fight with an Intellect pre-pot and weapon swap + Heart of the Wild, the timing works out so that the first Total Annihilation happens as Heart of the Wild runs out, losing no damage uptime.

After resetting your stacks you can go onto Elegon with full cat cooldowns netting yourself way more damage.

In the final phase (sub 35%) you should reset your stacks and Heart of the Wild with an Intellect potion for optimal damage as your raid should be popping Bloodlust/Heroism at this time, and again the timing works out so that you can go back in cat and blow all of your cooldowns again.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

#46 Robosaurus

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:34 AM

I'm so glad that Heart of the Wild Wrath Spam does similar dps to Dream of Cenarius. Now I won't have to time HT's to buff my bleeds.

Quick comparison of DoC vs Heart of the Wild per fight after week 1 of raiding.
Feng the Accursed
Rank 1 (HotW) Redhet 79099
Rank 2 (DoC) Robosaurus 76584
Rank 3 (HotW) Troidz 74901
Rank 4-8 (HotWx3, DoC x1)

Spiritbinder
Rank 1 (HotW) Troidz 79486
Rank 2 (DoC) Robosaurus 73508
Rank 3 (HotW) Grondrid 72748
Rank 4- 8 (1DOC + 1NV + 2 HotW)

The Spirit Kings
Rank 1 (HotW) Керровитарр 70010
Rank 2 (HotW) Troidz 68425
Rank 3 (HotW) Drought 67151
Rank 4-8 (HotW)

Elegon
Rank 1 (DoC) Robosaurus 143835
Rank 2 (HotW) Noreko 142852
Rank 3 (HotW) Jagger 138714
Rank 4-8 (HotW)

Will of the Emperor
Rank 1 (DoC) Robosaurus 86882
Rank 2 (HotW) Troidz 81931
Rank 3 (UNKNOWN) Meaningless 79711
Rank 4- 8(HotW)

With short kill timers, HotW definitely pulls ahead because of the insane burst.

everyone is a HotW Genius which is IMO the harder spec.

Edit: Apparently Heart of the Wild Wrath Damage got nerfed by 30%
Heart of the Wild STEALTH nerf... 30% damage - Forums - World of Warcraft


So I guess that would be a 10% ish nerf to all the HotW logs? Unfortunate.

edit: removed offensive line. Sorry for insulting myself Robosaurus.
DoC for life. Because Wrath spam is too hard.

#47 Jazdia

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:24 PM

I need to do some sims to find out whether the 5% agi bonus from agi potions is better than the spellcrit you gain from int potions. I am not in a position to do that right now, but I will when I can. Does anyone already have these numbers?

I would think the 5% is better.

#48 Leafkiller

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 05:11 PM

Elegon:

Instead of opening with bleeds you should start the fight with an Intellect pre-pot


Due to leather specialization and the mechanics of HotW, you should use an agility pot for HotW. It was one of the first things we simmed when we realized how strong HotW is.

#49 Hamlet

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 05:30 PM

Hmm, wonder if that's Wrath only or also Cat stuff. I heard the Feral->Wrath version was a lot stronger, so maybe that one more urgently needed fixing.

#50 Hoedown

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 05:51 PM

I'm definitely not seeing a 30% nerf to HotW wrath spamming. Appears the same to me.

#51 Jagger911

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 07:23 PM

They say it's currently only live on US realms.

#52 aggixx

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 09:06 PM

Feral to Balance has not yet been nerfed on live servers. If that rumor isn't completely full of garbage then it's probably one of the other transitions that was nerfed (Resto to Balance?). Contrary to what the tooltip may lead you to believe, all of the bonuses are coded seperately per spec.

@Robosaurus: While it does seem that DoC and HotW are both in a quite a good place, I don't think it'll stay that way for long. For now, most of the top parses are HotW parses because it's easier, but as soon as you replace your melee weapon and it becomes better than your caster weapon, DoC becomes a much more lucrative option. Without changes I think we'll probably only see HotW being so dominant at the beginning and end of tiers.

#53 Dentie

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 12:08 AM

What is our bite usage supposed to look like >25%? I'm often presented with the choice of refreshing a rip that has 10+ seconds remaining or using bite - the latter possibly giving me a few seconds of Rip downtime. What's your prerequisite for biting?

#54 Jagger911

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:58 AM

Personally I barely bite at all unless both are 20 sec (meaning I just refreshed rip and got it to 20 sec with 3 shreds).

Even this can be dangerous though, depending on whether tiger's fury comes off cd soon it may be an easier decision.

#55 Jazdia

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 02:01 PM

What is our bite usage supposed to look like >25%? I'm often presented with the choice of refreshing a rip that has 10+ seconds remaining or using bite - the latter possibly giving me a few seconds of Rip downtime. What's your prerequisite for biting?


Sub 25% you should have zero Rip downtime. FB no longer snapshots your current buffs on the Rip refresh, so if you pop potions, TF, DoC, etc and put up a huge Rip, you can refresh it indefinitely till the boss dies. Definitely better to FB in this instance and, keep in mind, you do not need 5CP to get a fully powered Rip refresh off a FB. A 1CP FB at 25 energy that will refresh a Rip is better than a 5 CP FB at 50 energy.

Edit: Sorry, misread that as <25%. Your question has been answered below.

#56 Jazdia

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 02:50 PM

You should be able to get a hold of me through EJ just fine as well. I wasn't aware there was any meaningful feral discussion going on over here so I hadn't really checked.

@Jazdia: I'd be interested in seeing what profile you used to run HotW tests, as your scale factors seem to be somewhat (although not drastically) different than what I've gotten.

This is the profile I've been using for T14H BiS HotW: #!./simc chardev=1709 name="Druid_Feral_T14H_HotW" origin="unknown" level - Pastebin.com

And here's a 25k iteration scale factor run of above profile: Simulationcraft Results
More iterations could be done as some of the stats are too close to each other to really be distinguishable (such as if Crit is actually better than Haste at a certain point).


Mine is definitely inferior to yours. I was just happy to get it to work as I was working off a version that did not have HotW support and, when I finally got a pre-release version supporting HotW compiled, I just did a basic implementation and did not sync HotW with Synapse Springs, Potions, or Heroism. Additionally, I did not account for gear reforged for haste, and I did not cancel Wrath casts if the time to finish casting was greater than the time remaining on HotW. Implementing those changes, over 100k iterations, brings me to within 1 - 4% of your stat weightings.

#57 Gurrshael

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 04:39 PM

What is our bite usage supposed to look like >25%? I'm often presented with the choice of refreshing a rip that has 10+ seconds remaining or using bite - the latter possibly giving me a few seconds of Rip downtime. What's your prerequisite for biting?


If I recall correctly even the best (damage-wise) simulationcraft scripts for feral don't have 100% uptime (it was around 90%). Sometimes it's worth squeezing in a FB even if it means few seconds of Rip downtime.

Rough thresholds when it is still beneficial to use FB can be obtained from those scripts.

Alternatively, you can try one of the suggestion addons (the most up-to-date seems to be Ovale with Nerien scripts) which will tell you that in game.

#58 aggixx

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 10:50 PM

If I recall correctly even the best (damage-wise) simulationcraft scripts for feral don't have 100% uptime (it was around 90%). Sometimes it's worth squeezing in a FB even if it means few seconds of Rip downtime.


This is correct. You have to remember that when you're considering if you should ferocious bite, the question is not "can I cast a FB here without reducing my Rip uptime?", it should be "Is the amount of rip uptime I lose from casting ferocious bite worth less damage than not ferocious biting at all?". This is why the SimulationCraft rotation will FB all the way down to 4 seconds remaining on Rip (Soul of the Forest plays into this threshold as well, the threshold is higher if you're using a different talent in that tier).

#59 Naturemeld

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 01:26 AM

Tailoring 4000AP for 15s every 60s Cloak Enchant 1000 avg AP bonus or ~340 - 400 Agility. Best when macro'd into Tiger's Fury


You can't "macro" your tailoring cloak enchant into Tiger's Fury - it's a chance on hit, not an on use.

Swordguard Embroidery


Edit: Included quote.

#60 Jazdia

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 04:49 PM

You can't "macro" your tailoring cloak enchant into Tiger's Fury - it's a chance on hit, not an on use.

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Edit: Included quote.


Fixed. Thank you.


From the data mined 5.1 Patch Notes:

Spoiler


From Ghostcrawler on Twitter:

Nearly all data-mined 5.1 class changes are old hotfixes that everyone already has. We haven't made many new 5.1 class changes yet.


I looked into the code of the current version of simulationcraft and it's difficult to say which version is being used as I can't find specific weapon damage multipliers for Mangle, Shred, or Ravage. Since I get the same results from the built in values as when I pull the spell from wowhead, which shows 400% for Mangle and Shred and 750% for Ravage, I am going to assume that it does not use the other values that are, apparently, likely to already have been implemented via hotfix and thus not represented in tooltips.

I adjusted the code of simcraft to give a boost of 25% to the damage of Mangle and Shred, and one of 26,66% to Ravage as well as giving rake a damage multiplier of 0.85. Rerunning the simulation with the same priority list as previously nets me a result that seems roughly an par, in terms of damage and talent choices as before. I'm not certain I implemented it 100% correctly, but the results seem reasonable enough. I did not sim stat weightings though, which I imagine are shifted slightly by this, giving a boost of value to haste, crit, hit, and expertise, and lowering the relative value of Mastery.

What interests me though is, if these changes are not represented in simcraft, how this effects simming for HotW with Wrath spam. 9% is a significant boost, especially since we are gaining such a huge increase to it with HotW.
According to napkin math, it would end up resulting in almost a 1% flat dps increase overall for a HotW + SotF spec.




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