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[Feral-Cat] Mists of Pandaria 5.2


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#121 Feralminded

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:39 PM

Wrath spam may yet have it's day. If ever we see another atramedes style boss or even any boss where ranged and melee have separate targets but our melee targets are simply bad for us we may yet again be pulled into wrath spam. For now be happy we can hurricane spam ... which I find pretty damned entertaining myself in AoE circumstances.

That said HoTW has proven to be too clutch, too often, to consider anything else myself. That said I am in a 10 man raid and flexibility is everything there. In a 25 man raid with enough redundancy I could see DoC being superior on certain fights ... specially with the bugged rip (which can make maintaining ideal DoC much easier as then you only have to worry about rake).

#122 Gilk

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:35 PM

What bugged rip are you guys talking about? Can't find any info in this thread. Are you just talking about a rip with all your procs up?

#123 baver

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 05:24 PM

there was a bug where you could apply rip while vortex was on the target to be able to increese the riptime by 2sec every shred/mangel instead of just 6sec like it should do. Im just abit sad i found out about it like 1week befor they fix it tho :)

#124 Jazdia

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:44 PM

New T15 Set bonuses via PTR (Thus subject to change):

2P Bonus (New) Predatory Swiftness grants you an additional combo point on your current combo target when consumed.

4P Bonus (New) After using Tiger's Fury, you gain 40% increased critical strike chance on the next 3 uses of Mangle, Shred, or Ferocious Bite.


My initial thoughts is the 2-pc bonus serves to further favor Dream of Cenarius, despite giving bonuses regardless of talents, due to the fact that, unless you need to heal yourself or someone else, PS procs can often go unused, especially if you're at a point when you're GCD capped, such as during berserk, right after TF, etc.

The 4 Pc bonus is primarily about Mangle and Shred; The FB boost is somewhat negligible considering that in full T14 gear reforged for crit/mastery and raid buffed one is potentially going to have 50%+ crit chance, and that will be higher in T15 gear, thus rendering the FB boost less potent, though still valuable.

For Mangle and Shred, however, this is extremely potent, essentially guaranteeing 100% crit rate for the next couple mangles or shreds with decent crit rating. Combined with the 2 Pc bonus combo points, this can easily translate to a combo involving using a finisher on a target, using the PS proc for a free CP, using TF for the bonus crit charges, using two shreds for a guaranteed 4 more CP, resulting in a guaranteed crit 5-CP FB.

This does, however, put a soft crit cap at 60%. Simulation will be required to determine how fast the value of crit drops with this set bonus after 60%. I imagine it will be significant, but not to a point that will make it useless. That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see some haste itemization show up due to this, depending on how gear is itemized. Without reforging for crit though, it's unlikely anyone will reach 60% crit. Mastery will still probably be optimal, so we may not even run into the crit cap.

#125 garic

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 01:03 PM

Would love to see a section for cat form while not feral specced.

how to get the best dps while resto specced. and similar for all the other specs.

am not a kitty and have never been so know very little about it so would be good to see a guide explaining the best from the limited abilities we get in cat form while specced as non-feral.

Thanks, Garic. Resto-Moonkin

#126 Jazdia

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:22 PM

Would love to see a section for cat form while not feral specced.

how to get the best dps while resto specced. and similar for all the other specs.

am not a kitty and have never been so know very little about it so would be good to see a guide explaining the best from the limited abilities we get in cat form while specced as non-feral.

Thanks, Garic. Resto-Moonkin


I don't know about Resto, but I'm pretty sure Hamlet covered that in the Moonkin thread at some point and it should be pretty similar to Resto. If there are differences, it's something I think would be more suited to the Resto thread, rather than the Feral thread. If anything, I think this thread would only discuss non-cat bonuses from HotW, as we gain no Cat Form bonuses as Feral druids, thus the discussion would be irrelevant to Feral druids and thus not compatible with the main goal of this thread. I haven't looked, but it's possible that the resto thread has already done an investigation of this. If not, I'd say looking up what Hamlet did would be your best bet.

#127 Jazdia

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 04:25 PM

I'm working to update the main post for 5.2 and here are some interesting notes on some of the new stuff coming in patch 5.2.

Trinket:
Rune of Re-Origination
Heroic
Item Level 535
Trinket

+1657 Agility
Equip: When your attacks hit you have a chance to trigger Re-Origination.  Re-Origination converts all of your Critical Strike, Haste, and Mastery into the highest of those three attributes for 20 sec.

0.46 RealPPM on landing harmful abilities and spells, and melee/ranged abilities and swings. 22 sec ICD



This is somewhat interesting in that it will allow you to pull off some interesting things depending on talents and set bonuses, and it also has some pitfalls.

For example, with the new 4pc set bonus for Ferals, granting us 40% bonus crit on the next three mangle, shred, or FB casts, it will be easy to go above the crit cap with this trinket, if your crit is higher than your mastery. (Which it shouldn't be, as of right now.)

On the other hand, if you were to try to make a HotW wrath spam build again (with the new, higher, wrath SP scaling and a good epic weapon) and you were reforging into haste, this would convert all your useless mastery into haste during your wrath spam phase (and all of your crit as well). This could have you GCD locked during Heroism, but wouldn't during a non-hero wrath spam phase. That said, during non-HotW you would also have your, now very useful, mastery converted to haste.

Oddly enough, this may point to a HotW build that uses wrath spam for hero burn phases or Hurricane during mass AoE phases reforging such that when your caster staff is equipped, your haste > your mastery, so that mastery willbe converted to haste for faster casts, and when your agi staff is equipped, your mastery > your haste, in order to gain some very spec/phase tailored benefits from this trinket.


Renataki's Soul Charm
    Heroic
    Item Level 535

    Trinket

    +1,657 Expertise (4.87 at L90) 
    Equip: Your attacks have a chance to grant Blades of Renataki, granting 1,505 Agility every 2 sec for 20 sec. (60 sec cooldown)

While a nice, but otherwise somewhat ordinary trinket, like other stacking trinkets, this provides a staggering 15k agility when fully stacked, giving you a window to line up an extremely powerful set of bleeds, particularly if you can line it up with a potion, TF, DoC, NV, or other bonus damage cooldowns. This is particularly potent if you can get in a rip at sub 25% to refresh. Other than that, however, the expertise is fairly mediocre for Ferals.


Talisman of Bloodlust
    Heroic
    Item Level 535
    Trinket

    +1,657 Agility 
    Equip: Your attacks have a chance to grant you 1,736 haste for 10 sec. This effect can stack up to 5 times.

    3.00 RealPPM on landing harmful abilities and spells, and melee/ranged abilities and swings. No ICD.


The interesting thing about this trinket is the high, 3.0 real PPM rate with no ICD.
Assuming each attack takes place between 0.4s and 1.0s from the last auto attack, special ability, or DoT tick this will give, on average, every auto attack and melee attack around (assuming reforging out of haste, 10% haste, raid buffed.) between 2.25% and a 5.50% chance to proc this trinket, usually on the lower end.


On average, assuming 100% uptime on bleeds, in the 10 seconds of uptime this trinket has, we will see 11 auto attacks, 5 rip ticks, 3 rake ticks, possibly 3 Thrash ticks, and perhaps 2-4 mangle/shred/ravage/FB depending on OoC procs, berserk, etc.

Realistically, that would be in exactly 10 seconds, assuming things line up perfectly, so we're likely to get one less auto, one less Rip tick, and maybe two special abilities on average. That boils down to 10+4+3+3+2 = 22 proc events within the time it would take the buff to expire. This boils down to an average proc chance of 2.475% per event. This ends up becoming roughly a 42.4% chance to refresh the proc before it expires.

If you follow the statistical chain:
Chance for refreshing in 10 second window before buff expires: ~42.4%
Chance of reaching 2 stacks from 1, before expiry: 42.4%
Chance of reaching 3 stacks from 2, before expiry: 42.4%

Chance of reaching 3 stacks from 1, before expiry: 17.98%
Chance of reaching 4 stacks from 1, before expiry: 7.62%
Chance of reaching 5 stacks from 1, before expiry: 3.23%
Chance of reaching 6(refresh of 5) stacks from 1 : 1.37%

Thus the odds of ever getting to a significant amount of stacks for any prolonged period of time is extremely low. This doesn't take into procs external factors like haste, including the haste you gain from the stacks, so it's not perfectly accurate. Given how poor haste is for Ferals anyways, it's not like it would do a ton of good for us, but it's worth noting how rare numerous procs will be for Ferals who don't stack haste.

Even accounting for haste, assuming a feral is somehow reforged to 40% haste, you still only end up with a couple percent higher chance to ever reach 5 stacks, though the chance of getting to 3 stacks is substantially higher (26%).







Capacitive Primal Diamond – 15.00 base RealPPM on landing melee/ranged abilities and swings. No ICD. At 5 stacks, fires Lightning Strike, which deals [280 + 75% AP] Nature damage. That base proc rate is multiplied by an additional coefficient by spec:

15(ppm) * 1.934(feral coefficient) * 1.1(haste) * .45(time since last chance) / 60 (sec per min) = 23.9% for a stack on hit, tick, or ability

Thus we will get a full 5 stacks about once every 8.36 - 16.08 seconds assuming an average of between 1.3 and 2.5 proc events per second. I'm not sure if dot ticks will count, but it doesn't look like it, which would skew the results towards 1.3 and away from 2.5 proc events per second.

I will be working out, when I have access to WoW, how much AP Ferals in Heroic T14 gear have in raid, to take a guess at how much damage a Feral in T15 ilvl gear will have in raid and work out the aproximate dps of the legendary meta, but a rough guesstimate would put it at 1,500 to 2,500 dps.

#128 The Grog

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 02:12 PM

For Mangle and Shred, however, this is extremely potent, essentially guaranteeing 100% crit rate for the next couple mangles or shreds with decent crit rating. Combined with the 2 Pc bonus combo points, this can easily translate to a combo involving using a finisher on a target, using the PS proc for a free CP, using TF for the bonus crit charges, using two shreds for a guaranteed 4 more CP, resulting in a guaranteed crit 5-CP FB.


I think this favors DoC as well. One of the major limitations, in my experience, with DoC is using a charge on another finisher before Swiftness times out. This would regularly allow use of DoC charges on that 5 point bite as long as you use swiftness in between or after the shreds.

#129 Regallion

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 08:09 PM

Rune was changed to give double the reduced stats( so if you had 5000 mastery 4000 haste 3000 crit it will give you 14 000 mastery). With that + stacked renataki+DoC i shudder to fathom what kind of sick dots will you be able to drop on poor poor unsuspecting raid bosses. Also wouldn't crit be better for heroism HoTW wrath spam?

#130 Jazdia

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 06:39 PM

Rune was changed to give double the reduced stats( so if you had 5000 mastery 4000 haste 3000 crit it will give you 14 000 mastery). With that + stacked renataki+DoC i shudder to fathom what kind of sick dots will you be able to drop on poor poor unsuspecting raid bosses. Also wouldn't crit be better for heroism HoTW wrath spam?


I suppose that depends on how much haste you have. I'd have to sim it out to see for sure, but right now I have haste reforged into more valuable stats. If I cast Wrath while raid buffed it takes 1.8 seconds to complete. If I cast with Heroism up it becomes a 1.4 second cast. If the amount of haste you have, plus the amount of the proc, would put you over the haste cap during heroism, it might be worthwhile to have the proc be crit. If you had 5000 mastery, 5000 haste, and 5000 crit and putting on your caster or melee weapon determined which stat was the highest, you would gain ~20k of whichever stat was the highest. For crit this would become 33.3% crit, likely bringing you up to 55% - 66% spell crit rating in a raid setting depending on how much crit you had to begin with. For haste, you would gain a whopping 47% haste which could easily bring you above the haste cap during heroism, depending on what haste you had, given Hero is a 30% buff.

So yes, Crit could very easily be better for HotW Wrath spam.

However, for Hurricane that is another matter. Many people use HotW +Hurricane on burst add phases such as Heroic Feng Shield Phase or Heroic Sha as it's very easy to put out huge amounts of sustained AoE DPS without having to worry about running out of energy. Hurricane is (to my knowledge) not limited by haste unless you got to some insane haste breakpoint where the entire channel completed in less than your GCD. Given this is a practical impossibility, all it does is make hurricane tick faster. Given Adds are often moving and you frequently reposition your free hurricane on many AoE phases anyways, this wouldn't be any sort of limitation.


That said, the proc during our non-HotW phase is a great deal more complicated. Sure, we gain a huge amount of mastery and it buffs our bleeds tremendously, but we also lose all our haste and our crit. This will severely curtail energy regen and combo point generation, making it more difficult to get up a powerful bleed if you don't have your cooldowns, DoC procs, etc lined up.

#131 Regallion

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:27 PM

"lose our crit" comes to about 8% for me now. This is indeed a liability but it is not a deal-breaker. Neither is 4% haste. For me right now this trinket will give out 13 000 mastery or a cool 65% to my rip. I am pretty sure that cancels out the temporary...disadvantages. And since as i assume agility procs add to the base damage of a Rip this can very quickly get absurdly ridiculous.

That said this poses an interesting reforging problem-you want to meet your hit and expertise caps by reforging out of mastery but still making sure your mastery is the top stat.

#132 Rohgraht

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:37 AM

That said, the proc during our non-HotW phase is a great deal more complicated. Sure, we gain a huge amount of mastery and it buffs our bleeds tremendously, but we also lose all our haste and our crit. This will severely curtail energy regen and combo point generation, making it more difficult to get up a powerful bleed if you don't have your cooldowns, DoC procs, etc lined up.


It feels to me that sub 25% we would want to get rip up as fast as possible then rake, and use a cancelaura macro, to get our other stats back. But would this be an dps increase above 25% aswell? And how much of an increase would it be?

#133 Jazdia

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:58 PM

It feels to me that sub 25% we would want to get rip up as fast as possible then rake, and use a cancelaura macro, to get our other stats back. But would this be an dps increase above 25% aswell? And how much of an increase would it be?


That is assuming you're doing single target, patchwerk, dps where you can put up your rip and extend it forever, and that the added crit and haste in the interim gives you more of a damage buff to your other abilities than to wait and get in a second Rake.

I will have to look into simming the cancelaura macro if I can to see what effect is has on dps.

#134 Jazdia

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:24 PM

I simmed it out and I show around a ~500 dps loss canceling the buff provided the boss was >25%, rip had >12 seconds left, and rake had >9 seconds left.

Tightening the restriction to >14 seconds left on Rip and the dps loss shinks to ~150. I have not been able to find a combination where the dps when cancelling sims to a higher number.

I also tried only concerning myself with rip and it always sims slightly lower. Looks like getting multiple thrash and rakes in with the buff is up turns out to be more valuable than the added crit on non-bleed specials and auto attacks, and the added energy regen and auto attacks.

Over a 7.5 minute fight it appears that the added energy regen you get from canceling the buff early turns out to be around 5 - 15 energy (total) for the whole fight. Additionally, you gain around one extra auto attack, on average, throughout the entire 7.5 minute fight. So even assuming you crit that extra auto attack for 50k and that extra energy let you get off one last shred which crit for 100k that's only 150k damage over 450 seconds or 333 dps gained for losing 65+% damage on multiple rakes and thrashes. Worst case you don't get any additional specials in because of that energy and your melee attack is a glancing blow or a miss and you get 0 - 75 dps in exchange for said losses.

It looks like it's close in some specific circumstances but that marginal gain doesn't work out to be a net gain when you factor in what you give up to get it. Obviously there are minutia I didn't mention here such as the effect of the gained crit chance by canceling, but that's what the sims are for, and they seem to indicate that it's not optimal to cancel the buff.

#135 Astrylian

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 10:28 PM

You still can't cancel the Rune buff.
Rawr!

#136 Knowme

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:13 AM

Does anyone have exact numbers of the Rune with HotW and DoC right now? I get in the spot where i have 4 Pieces of the new Tier and the Rune (Non Heroic).

Now Iam consider wearing the Rune + Rentaki but iam not sure which spec HotW(Crit Reforge and Wrath) or DoC.

And yes you can't cancle the Rune Buff.

kind regards

#137 RareBeast

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:13 PM

According to Simcraft work over at the Fluid Druid, DoC is still ahead of HotW although it still isn't by a massive amount and is dependant on you being able to pull off the rotation pretty well.

In addition, if you have the Rune then the best reforging is to have as close to a 1:1:1 ratio (mastert:haste:crit) as possible while still having Mastery as the highest stat. Check the forums at Fluid Druid for all the work - i'm just the messenger :)

#138 HypnosZdC

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:08 PM

If I refresh a Rip with a Ferocious Bite while RoR is active, will the new Rip benefit from the Trinket?

I tried to check myself, but there is just to much going on during a boss fight :/

#139 RareBeast

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 01:11 AM

No. FB only extends the current Rip. You need to apply a new rip when Rune procs - on a positive note, if you then manage to extend it with FB you can keep the super rip going to the end of the fight!




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