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#221 raphirau

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:20 AM

Today I read following holy pala change:

Judgment for Holy Paladins now costs 12% of base mana to cast (up from 5% of base mana).

I'm curious what they want to achieve with this change. 12% base mana equals one Holy Light. Selfless Healer requires 3 Judgements for max. use.

Selfless Healer in addition to its current effects, now also causes Judgment to generate a charge of Holy Power for Holy Paladins. Stacks of Selfless Healer now reduce the cast time, mana cost, and improve the effectiveness of Divine Light, Flash of Light, and Holy Radiance.

In my opinion Selfless Healer would have been fine without the mana changes on Judgement. 3 Judgements ( 36% Base Mana ) = 1 Divine Light ( would cost 36% Base Mana ) + EF / LoD. The trade surely is still pretty good, but the time you have to wait for 3 stacks Selfless Healer ( 18 sec when used on cd ) is way to long and makes it more used on rng hp drops.

They should make it 5% oder remove the coolddown on it ( gcd should fit ) to make selfless healer more practical.

#222 cremor

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:05 PM

Without that change the new Selfless Healer would have been a huge increase in mana efficiency. We would have been "forced" to take Selfless Healer and spirit would have dropped in stat priority down below mastery and haste, resulting in another healing class that ignores spirit (which isn't what Blizzard wants).

While still providing more HPM than the other talents, Selfless Healer now doesn't work without spirit any more, which has two benefits: The talents are now more balanced and they now all work with the same stat priorities.

Sources:
Before Judgment mana nerf: [Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion Pt. 2 - Page 3
After (only look at second image, fist is for made up changes): [Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion Pt. 2 - Page 12

#223 raphirau

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 10:23 AM

While still providing more HPM than the other talents, Selfless Healer now doesn't work without spirit any more, which has two benefits: The talents are now more balanced and they now all work with the same stat priorities.


Wow first of, thanks for your answer. Pretty nice breakdown of the talents and the rotations.

For me personally rotations dont seem like a healer thing. Yes there are situation based rotations in which you have to optimize your aoe heal, but how many encounters implement this for more than 40% of the fight? It surely depends on your raid size ( 25 / 10 man ) and how much unpredictable incoming damage there is. Megaera is a pretty aoe heavy encounter, but in 10 man I only use the HR-HS-HR-LoD-HS rotation while rampage. After that its single target heal, because of the distance between the people.

What I want to say is, that I love healing more reactionalwise and the ability to make a huge hps difference by making the right decission.

One thing i wanted to say about the stat prio switch, is that its going to happen. the better the gear the more stats the faster we get to a spirit breakpoint where we get more hpm/hps if we change to haste ( or mastery ofc ). I dont think its ideal to change the toolkit to encounter this problem. With full T16 HC Items, I don't see anyone stay on spirit, even with the massive seal nerf.

I have to admit that I'm very new to holy pala in pandaria. I raided excessively while ICC and Dragon Soul and then stopped playing till 3 weeks ago. So if i say anything stupid tell me please :D

While I wrote this i read the new changes:

  • Holy Insight now increases the effectiveness of your Word of Glory, Eternal Flame and Light of Dawn by 50%, up from 35%.
  • Eternal Flame additional healing increased by 40%.

Src: MMO-Champion - Q2 Earnings Call, Patch 5.4 PTR - Build 17260

This makes EF pretty much must have again even without mastery proc, right?

#224 Charybdis

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 05:12 PM

Blizzard will iterate on those talents until they get acceptable numbers of people seriously considering at least two of them.

I don't think EF is a must-have right now because it giving the shield over time was way too good to pass up. Without that, it's more down to situation and style than numbers, and that's exactly along the lines of what Blizz wants for talents.

SH requires a significant playstyle change to get the most from (or at least some effort like maintaining a focus on an enemy target to cast judgment on). Because of the feeling of having to do damage to get a healing boost, I don't think it will attract pure healers even with the HoPo gains. It's likely the best talent for those who want a hybrid DPS/heal playstyle, but that almost always takes a willing group and other classes like disc priests and monks do the heal/DPS hybrid better. All healer classes do have the option of being hybrids though, so we might see some theorycraft on it.

SS getting 3 charges on a 10 second CD is very welcome. It's more limited than EF's shielding was since it can't be cast on as many people and it doesn't heal them, but it's still quite noticeable for the people buffed with it.

#225 monikasun88

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 06:34 PM

While I do understand the reasons for the 12% mana change for Judgement, I think that by doing it they basically eliminated one of only viable play styles which can compete with our current 5.3 state.
Sacred Shield is a huge heal, but it doesn't benefit from either mastery or the new legendary cloak (which spreads overhealing) and a large portion of it simply goes to overhealing as people will be healed up from direct healing spells between ticks. If the shield is not consumed within the 5-6 seconds of the next tick (depending on haste) then it simply drops off rather than IH which stayed on for 45 seconds. The charge system is nice in that you can actually save 2 charges with one being on the active tank for large damage phases and should never "waste charges" so to speak as long as you keep it below 2. Still, a large portion of the absorb shield will still end up going to overhealing.
The numbers buff to EF is great but still not the reason why EF was great pre 5.3 and will likely suffer from similar problems to SS where a large portion of the ticks are going to overhealing. Furthermore, EF still takes time and mana to generate 3 charges while other class have HoTs that have very little mana cost and can be cast more often. The benefit to this buff I guess is that we can now consider using EF more a lower HP levels since the tick does a lot more healing. The main problem with EF is that it is more beneficial to use 3 HP on LoD which heals for more and actually refreshes illuminated healing.
I didn't like the SH style of healing but was willing to use it as the only real viable competitor to our current style. Now that they've nerfed it can amount to over 240,000 more mana used with sub-optimal Judgement usage (more optimal = more mana used). I really don't like this new legendary cloak or the direction of healing that it's going. It's almost as if more overhealing now is better with the cloak proc. I just don't think I like playing a style where at times we try to do more overhealing rather than less overhealing and more effective healing.

#226 Charybdis

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 07:40 PM

Given the latest watercooler/coffee with the devs and how GC said they're putting Holy Shock on Sanctity of battle, I'm hopeful it will actually stay there instead of waffling around at "maybe" like the datamining and such has shown. I'm not so hopeful they'll actually let spell haste effects lower its CD, but one can dream they'll allow it since it's definitely a spell.

Is anyone looking at the SimC holy pally module, by the way?


Aug 14th edit:
"Holy Shock mana cost has been reduced by 50%."

At first I thought this was out of left field since it seemed a bit odd to lower HS's cost, but then I realized it is probably due to having HS benefit from SoB, and perhaps a bit of compensation for increasing Judgment's cost so that SH paladins are spending about the same amount of mana overall.

#227 Stryder

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 11:23 AM

perhaps a bit of compensation for increasing Judgment's cost so that SH paladins are spending about the same amount of mana overall.


If this is the case then it's counterintuitive as to why they increased judgement cost in the first place, which was to prevent paladins from dropping spirit down to very low amounts.

#228 Charybdis

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 02:58 PM

If this is the case then it's counterintuitive as to why they increased judgement cost in the first place, which was to prevent paladins from dropping spirit down to very low amounts.


I do not claim that compensating for Judgment's mana increase is an actual reason they did it (I can't read their minds and they haven't posted their reason or the math alluding to it), but it might be possible. Complex systems and math can often be counter-intuitive at first glance.

Regardless of the reasons it is definitely a buff, and it's possible the number will be tamed as they get more data on it.

#229 Sólaria

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:22 PM

Hey not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but my question is, how much gear should I have before realistically changing from spirit gems to mastery? My characters Solaria on Saurfang EU, if someone could help please :)

#230 Charybdis

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 12:16 AM

Since there isn't a proper OP, it seems it would be okay to answer.

For spirit what you usually want to do is get enough to where you're comfortable with how your mana feels given the content you're working on. Since healers have the most varied playstyle simply because that's how healing goes, there isn't a set number for everyone since every one plays differently.

"Overdoing" it on spirit isn't really much of a problem since you can directly make use of extra mana by casting Divine Light instead of Holy Light here and there. Don't worry about getting a bunch of spirit gear, especially since reforging will let you fine tune things.

If I absolutely had to attach a base number to what you'd want for spirit, I'd probably say keep it over 9000. And no, that's not a funny DBZ reference, 9000+ is actually a good number to get your spirit to.

#231 Imperviable

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 03:02 PM

i've chosen to switch my holy paladin from mastery stat to haste.
do anyone have any idea how much is the hardcap haste for holy paladin plz

There is no hard cap on haste.




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