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#21 Fragadin

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:05 PM

Anyone tested Glyph of the Battle Healer - Spell - World of Warcraft in raids?


Haven't battle tested it, at first glance I thought it was interesting because more hps are good, but 30% of a melee attack I don't believe will account for much, I will test it out and see, but I do not have high hopes.

#22 Artemisian

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:12 AM

A question in regards to Seal of Insight - is it worth going into melee and leaving auto-attack on for regen? I've found it helpful in dungeons, but going into raiding I'm wondering if it's a silly decision. It seems logical with the opportunity for regen, but I'm usually a priest and just wondering :)

#23 Dragnio

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:39 AM

A question in regards to Seal of Insight - is it worth going into melee and leaving auto-attack on for regen? I've found it helpful in dungeons, but going into raiding I'm wondering if it's a silly decision. It seems logical with the opportunity for regen, but I'm usually a priest and just wondering :)

As i think, it is. If you manage to stay in melee zone during the whole encounter, regen from Seal can give you approximately 15% of your total manaregen (according to my logs, and it can be even more), which is pretty useful, i guess.

#24 Mieke

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 01:54 PM

Is Holy Light/beacon swapping still our most efficient way of raid healing? I feel like I'm struggling to keep my mana up in raids but that might be due to gear or some other reason. Did they make some change to Holy Shock to be used in a different role besides burst HPS? I am using Holy Prism which seems to be a very mana efficient heal to be used on CD.

#25 Charybdis

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:57 PM

Thanks to Infusion of Light, Daybreak, and always granting a HoPo charge, Holy Shock is useful in many more situations than just burst healing. In Cata we mostly used it on cooldown because of the HoPo and IoF, and even more often when the former Daybreak procced. It used to be a 20% chance when casting FoL, HL, or DL to make HS not trigger the CD.

#26 Rrui

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:58 PM

I'm getting when the Faire comes on Sunday. Is anyone able to do the maths to work out if or is the best choice to go with it?

My feeling is because I really hate use trinkets, but will still go with whichever is the most MP5.

#27 razen

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:56 AM

Spi mana regen is = Total Mana *0.02 +(1.1287*SPI*in combat regen%)

- 706,8 extra spi, gives 399mp5
- Internal cd 50s, assuming it goes off once per minute that's 424mp5, might get lower if you are unlucky.

#28 Private_Dream

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:04 PM

I'm using Spirit > Haste > Mastery > Crit but the idea of prioritising Mastery over haste is interesting.


I am running Spirit > Mastery > Crit > Haste at the moment (and was running Mastery >= Haste in Dragonsoul) with decent success. On current gear levels secondary stats do not stack to high enough amounts that would make Haste difference noticeable, while Mana is still an issue and just increasing your throughput is not good enough in my opinion. I suspect this trend will continue for a while and even if Haste gives you more control over damage intake especially in first few weeks of heroic progression (This is from perspective of semi-hardcore guild, top50 might think otherwise).

I've been working on some spreadsheets for holy healing and at my gear levels with mastery efficiency around 75%-80%, mastery gives around me slightly below 2/3rd of haste throughput while increasing mana efficiency. Take it with a grain of salt tho, as its still work in progress.

That said stacking mastery is still suboptimal on AoE heavy fights (feng comes to mind).

#29 Rrui

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 04:58 PM

Last week or so I've moved to Spirit > Mastery > Haste > Crit and I do like it, a lot.

#30 Charybdis

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 08:27 PM

Healing has usually been a bit of an odd duck when it comes to stat values for throughput because of the different demands and playstyles of healing.

In terms of statistical gains though:

1% haste = 425 rating.
1% crit = 600 rating.
1 mastery point is 600 rating.

So 100 haste equals .235% more throughput
100 crit provides .166% more throughput
and mastery, assuming the conversion functions like Cata where 1 point is actually 1/8th the original amount (12% for IH), means it's 100 mastery for .25% more throughput.

Haste's throughput value of course assumes chaincasting, but the real value most healers like it for is quicker spells for clinch moments.
Crit is always on, and unlike haste does not increase mana consumption too.
Mastery is likewise always on and doesn't use extra mana, but it also doesn't always work because it doesn't transfer through Beacon of Light. It also doesn't work on ticks of Holy Radiance. I don't recall whether it works on Light of Dawn.

Last I heard Spirit's regen value had intellect in the equation, but that seems to have been taken out and everyone is saying 100 spirit = ~56 MP5 during combat with whatever class's version of Meditation. At the moment I can't verify the exact number, especially since it's listed differently between here, the druids, the shamans, monks, and priests all saying something different. Either it's different for each class or people are getting the numbers screwed up. Possibly both.

I haven't yet seen the mana values of each of our spells, but I'm still searching around. If someone would post them that would work too so we can maybe show, among other things, how haste affects our mana expenditure and what amount of spirit might counter that

#31 Nocturnas

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:20 PM

I've been away from the game for 6+ months so please let me know if (and why) this is a dumb question.

I'm looking for a simple equivalence scale for Holy Pally stats so I can plow through the pre-raid loot tables and gear up roughly decently. There are some equivalence numbers on Wowhead, some on LootRank, and I'm wondering whether either is any good. Those two scales certainly disagree with the EJ compendium numbers for Retribution, so it makes me wonder where those scales come from and whether they are any good.

Last time I looked at this seriously I was using Rawr to come up with my own numbers, but now there's SimCraft and other stuff, so if one of them is "right" please let me know. Happy to have a "right enough" scale for now, though.

#32 Charybdis

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:31 PM

You will almost never find a "best stat" for healers because the demands on a healer are typically far more volatile than for a DPS. Thanks to the way Blizz has tweaked our stats there aren't any clear winners other than maybe "enough spirit until you're happy, then whatever stat(s) you feel complement your playstyle and needs from there." It is far better to know what each stat does for you than to try and find "objective" rankings because there is no set style that will work for everyone all the time.

#33 goldedition@gmail.com

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 10:38 PM

Just to clarify the damage taken via hand of sacrifice is holy dmg therefore glyping dp actually hurts you more and the mass of fly to the raid in will of the emperors fight is in fact frost dmg from the cloud. Also I am currently using haste build I see more value to the haste since the mastery bubble can and does frequently fall off before being used. Finally using lights hammer seems to be the best route at the moment holy prisms proximity to the boss requirement makes it near useless in a ten man setting. Glyphs are currently divine plea flash of light and divinity and protector of the innocent is quite viable as well.

#34 Capstone

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:33 AM

Hand of Sacrifice damage used to mirror the damage type transferred from the tank. Has this behavior changed?

#35 goldedition@gmail.com

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:04 PM

Based on my tests the damage from it is all holy I have not seen anything saying otherwise but ill check up and see if this was a change that was made

#36 Raspberry

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 05:13 PM

Hi all, I am not a usual poster but I've lurked here for a long time. Since the Holy thread just started I figured I'd add something to the discussion.

First, I posted this on the WoW official Paladin forums in somebody's thread but I imagine it would be good to cross-post this here:

I mathed out the difference between Eternal Flame and Sacred Shield, and SS contributes an additional ~3.6k hps while EF contributes at minimum ~4.4k hps, assuming neither overheals with my gear and full raid buffs. To put it in perspective, my SS heals for about 154k over the duration, while EF heals for about 240k. The worst case situation for EF is to get only 3 HoPo every ~20 sec, so subtracting for the opportunity cost of the missed LoD gets you the 4.4k additional hps (over not having either talent, that is). Subtracting the opportunity cost of about half a HL cast from SS's healing yields the 3.6k hps value. Maybe you could bump that up to ~4k hps benefit to account for the increased mana expenditure. However, under optimal conditions for EF (having Holy Avenger up), the talent yields an additional ~28k hps over the duration of Holy Avenger. Using a HR>HS>HR>EF "rotation" yields an additional ~12k hps over the course of the rotation. This puts EF leaps and bounds ahead of SS in all situations but one: when EF is doing like 80%+ overhealing or something ridiculous like that.

One thing to note is that if you use LoD more than EF, SS becomes better. I am raiding 10s so I can't really attest to how much EF overheals in 25m, but in 10m its reasonable to expect to get a Lot of useful burst healing out of EF.

I for one am content with this. Sacred Shield restricted to one target is nothing but a headache buff to keep up. Good riddance.

In regards to relative stat priorities, clearly we want spirit over everything else, but I'm liking a spirit>int>crit>mastery>haste setup. Mastery now scales at the same rate as crit - both get 1% every 600 rating. However, mastery still does not transfer to the Beacon of Light. This means that, as long as your crits aren't doing a ridiculous amount of overhealing, crit will yield better efficiency at the cost of being somewhat unreliable. With the way healing seems to feel in my raid group, having a lot of crit doesn't seem to be a liability - if someone dies in a burst window it's usually a mechanic failure or something a CD would solve. With how strained mana is currently, I want all the efficiency I can get. This means that haste also seems pretty undesirable to me right now. Haste has historically had very little efficiency benefit; its main use is burst healing. I haven't found myself needing to squeeze out every inch of burst healing possible yet, though of course that is subject to change.

For LVL90 talents, it seems like Light's Hammer overtakes Holy Prism at 7 targets. Unbuffed, my Holy Prism heals for 26,740 per target for 5 targets every 20 sec, and Light's Hammer heals for 8,922 8 times per target for unlimited targets every 60 sec. Thus HP's healing is capped at about 460k per minute, which LH surpasses at 7 targets. Of note is that HP benefits from mastery whereas LH does not. This still doesn't make it a better talent, though. Not to mention that HP is harder to use and is not even guaranteed to hit 5 people in a 10m raid.

Thoughts on this?

#37 Archieewee

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 05:30 PM

Strictly for the Light's Hammer vs Holy Prism, I find it very boss dependant.
For example, I'd always take Light's Hammer on Feng and Elegon, and always take Holy Prism on Stone Guard, Gara'jal and Will of the Emperor (10man on all).

#38 ZlatanIsKing

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 02:47 PM

Strictly for the Light's Hammer vs Holy Prism, I find it very boss dependant.
For example, I'd always take Light's Hammer on Feng and Elegon, and always take Holy Prism on Stone Guard, Gara'jal and Will of the Emperor (10man on all).


You should consider Light's hammer on Will of the Emperor, the gas phase can be pretty hectic if tanks are taking stacks & loads of damage at the same time.

#39 Rrui

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:28 PM

You should consider Light's hammer on Will of the Emperor, the gas phase can be pretty hectic if tanks are taking stacks & loads of damage at the same time.


Surely at that point LH is wasted unless you have no melee, you're better using prism on an add close to the raid.

#40 smerfbubble

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:39 PM

So I want to see some insight on Eternal Flame vs Word of Glory, I see a whole lot of talk about Word of Glory but I use Eternal Flame, its a huge, cast-free, mana free heal. And it puts a HoT on them. I always have like 2-3 EF up at a time and I barely ever go oom and I dps around 20k (+ or -) a few k sometimes. But it seems to be working out great, wondering why people use WoG so much.

Also can I get some info on trinket combinations?
I'm currently using Thousand Pickled Egg from the Direwbrew that one is good for sure, great Int and Haste boost (considering I'm stacking Mastery its good to balance it out.)

But I'm have trouble picking over the Empty-Fruit Barrel or Vial of Ichouous Blood.

I'm using Egg + Blood trinkets just mainly because my mana is great for heroics it seems, but I might switch it out when raid time comes around for the sure mana gain. What do you guys think about this? Also, is 3k int from the barrel trinket even proc enough to be useful? I didn't even notice it when I tried it out.




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