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#41 ZlatanIsKing

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 04:33 PM

Surely at that point LH is wasted unless you have no melee, you're better using prism on an add close to the raid.


The adds for us wasn't really ever in meele range because of our snares & roots. So I never saw the use for it on normal 10m, perhaps on heroic it will be useful.

#42 Archieewee

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 05:52 AM

For WotE you get 3-4 poison phases within the 10mins~ fight. Light's hammer has 1min cd, which makes it really inefficient. I just spam Holy Prism on our tanks for the single target low mana burst healing since they do take quite a lot of dmg.

@smerfbubble
There was a post few pages ago that compared EF to SS and from what I remember EF healed for ~110k more, so when you include the 3hp you could use on WoG or LoD and your crit%, you want to use EF only if you can guarantee it never overheals more than~ 50k, and that's next to impossible on most boss fights, so I suggest you switch to SS.

For the trinket combination you want to go with and for raids, replaced only when you get a lot more spirit from gear or a trinket that provides more mana regen (,

#43 ZlatanIsKing

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:06 AM

For WotE you get 3-4 poison phases within the 10mins~ fight. Light's hammer has 1min cd, which makes it really inefficient. I just spam Holy Prism on our tanks for the single target low mana burst healing since they do take quite a lot of dmg.



I strongly disagree on the fact that LH is ineffecient, it is very good on WotE, and why would you save it for only the gas phase? you can use it on cd in he melee camp.

Just take a look at some of the pharses.

I guess of the you're struggeling with the tank healing and raid healing is fine HP would be to go to spell.

We're all just testing this out and heroics are coming!

#44 Archieewee

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 04:11 PM

You might be right, after some napkin math I think the overall healing on single target is the same, so I guess it's dependent on other factors.
For example we only have one melee, and I almost never heal the tank that's with him, and we were lucky with range dps, so we have a dps healing cd for every poison phase, so I personally will stick with Holy Prism for the burst heal, but other paladins might find it better to use Light's hammer, and on heroic I'll most likely switch to it as well.

#45 Sutekhi

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 04:44 PM

You will almost never find a "best stat" for healers because the demands on a healer are typically far more volatile than for a DPS. Thanks to the way Blizz has tweaked our stats there aren't any clear winners other than maybe "enough spirit until you're happy, then whatever stat(s) you feel complement your playstyle and needs from there." It is far better to know what each stat does for you than to try and find "objective" rankings because there is no set style that will work for everyone all the time.


This is correct, for the longest time as a paladin I've always favored intellect as my playstyle allowed for constant mana regen. Right now I'm sitting at 13.5k Regen and I was going oom in 25 man LFR.

#46 Highmeh

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 05:28 PM

Is anyone seeing Stay of Execution behaving weirdly with regards to haste?

It was my understanding that Stay of Execution is not effected by haste (via Dedralie over at Healiocentric). However, I toyed with it on my break and noticed that I was coming up short on ticks; I expected to see 10 ticks, but I was only getting 8. Granted, I only tested this a handful of times because my break is limited (I will doing some more extensive testing tonight), but I wanted to know if anyone else had encountered this behavior.


Nevermind; I was simply miscounting.

Edit: I need to proofread what I write more thoroughly. >.<

#47 Charybdis

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:53 AM

This is correct, for the longest time as a paladin I've always favored intellect as my playstyle allowed for constant mana regen. Right now I'm sitting at 13.5k Regen and I was going oom in 25 man LFR.


Intellect no longer has any regen value because it's not used in the spirit equation anymore and since it doesn't increase mana it doesn't increase the returns from Divine Plea or a Blood Elf's Arcane Torrent.

If no one is up for it, I suppose I could put together a list of how things work in general as well as what's changed since Cataclysm.

#48 Highmeh

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:45 PM

Intellect no longer has any regen value because it's not used in the spirit equation anymore and since it doesn't increase mana it doesn't increase the returns from Divine Plea or a Blood Elf's Arcane Torrent.

If no one is up for it, I suppose I could put together a list of how things work in general as well as what's changed since Cataclysm.


I was debating this, but I only just switched from lurker to poster here on EJ. I'm not sure I have enough clout to post a guide here, despite being a long time reader and player. :X

#49 jfiend13

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 05:14 PM

Never been a big poster on here but I was trying to figure out haste cap...I'm going spirit>haste>=mastery>crit and seems to hold up well in 25s. Keeping up with the OP Druids just fine. But everything shows mastery over haste but I feel in later raiding haste will still want to be priority. I almost always socket spirit gems now. Raid buffed I'm around 28.5%haste (4905 hate rating with most dungeon heroic and some raid epics) and about 25% mastery. Mana regen seems fine. With divine purpose procs its not a problem on mana if you get bad procs sometimes it sucks. LoD is awesome now. Im gonna keep with haste for a while maybe Try out mastery over haste. But my main purpose was finding haste cap. So then I can focus on mastery. Greatly appreciate it!!

#50 Highmeh

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:14 PM

Never been a big poster on here but I was trying to figure out haste cap...I'm going spirit>haste>=mastery>crit and seems to hold up well in 25s. Keeping up with the OP Druids just fine. But everything shows mastery over haste but I feel in later raiding haste will still want to be priority. I almost always socket spirit gems now. Raid buffed I'm around 28.5%haste (4905 hate rating with most dungeon heroic and some raid epics) and about 25% mastery. Mana regen seems fine. With divine purpose procs its not a problem on mana if you get bad procs sometimes it sucks. LoD is awesome now. Im gonna keep with haste for a while maybe Try out mastery over haste. But my main purpose was finding haste cap. So then I can focus on mastery. Greatly appreciate it!!


Get enough haste until you feel comfortable.

As an example (and a more direct answer to your question), I'm aiming for at least 3506 haste rating, which is ~25% haste with raid buff. This puts all the main cast-time heals at just under 2 seconds (anything longer than this feels too slow to me), and happens to coincide with the 3rd tick of Eternal Flame. From there, I've been reforging to Mastery.

Edit: Fixed the haste rating; I was a few points off.

#51 jfiend13

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 10:12 PM

Thanks! I was thinking the same anything over 2 sec feels to long which is why I always choose haste over mastery. Mines like 1.96 cast at that high of rating so I could probably reforge to mastery a bit. Thanks for the input!

#52 Skiny13

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 09:24 AM

Hi,

How come haste is no longer the best stat before mastery?
Of course Mastery is great, "Illuminated healing" is always top 3 healing done, but i'm casting at 2.1sec while raid buffed.
Is that not too long? In term of HPS, how to determinate whether more Illuminated healing, or spellcast will be higher?

#53 Highmeh

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 05:28 PM

How come haste is no longer the best stat before mastery?
Of course Mastery is great, "Illuminated healing" is always top 3 healing done, but i'm casting at 2.1sec while raid buffed.
Is that not too long? In term of HPS, how to determinate whether more Illuminated healing, or spellcast will be higher?


Mastery has one big advantage over haste in that it's very mana friendly; you are getting additional "healing" (absorption shield) at no mana cost (where as with haste, more casts = more mana). And absorption/damage prevention has the benefit that it can't "overheal" in the traditional sense; as long as the target is still being dealt damage, the shield will prevent additional damage, meaning less healing is necessary on the target (which means you can follow up with a cheaper heal). This is important since, for the moment, "mana matters."

Cast time is also important however (if you can't get the heal in before your tank dies, the shield is meaningless) so as I said before, get enough haste until you are comfortable. Note that "comfortable" means you are getting the necessary healing to the right targets in a timely manner while not running out of mana. For me, that's at least 25% haste raid buffed, but it might be different for you, so experiment a bit. :)

As far as a throughput breakpoint for haste vs. mastery, that is entirely situational and hard to quantify from my understanding, and I haven't spent enough time yet in raids to even guess at this.

#54 Charybdis

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 09:11 PM

Healing stats are such that your playstyle will tend to make the most difference in how you value stats, and as such you shouldn't look at which might be arbitrarily better but instead look at what benefits your playstyle the most then go for it.

Trying to get empirical stat values for holy (and most other healers I'm guessing) is simply mental masturbation. Yes, this is a theorycraft site, but the fact is there are different ways to heal effectively and enough different encounters that one single way won't work for all of them. Because of that fact there will not be a clear winner or even priority that we can use in enough situations to reliably say "gear this way and you will win."

#55 Baretank

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 11:06 AM

While I would recommend Mastery over Haste due to the mana issues holy pallies have early on, if you do choose to gear for haste in any amount, I would recommend one of the following breakpoints:

- 503 for a 9th tick of Light's Hammer
- 2,025 for a 6th tick(proc?) of Sacred Shield

After those two, the next relevant breakpoint isn't until 5,558 at which you get a 10th tick of Light's Hammer. However, not only is this nearly unattainable with current gear, it would also be incredibly stressing on your mana pool.

#56 Rrui

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:28 AM

While I would recommend Mastery over Haste due to the mana issues holy pallies have early on, if you do choose to gear for haste in any amount, I would recommend one of the following breakpoints:

- 503 for a 9th tick of Light's Hammer
- 2,025 for a 6th tick(proc?) of Sacred Shield

After those two, the next relevant breakpoint isn't until 5,558 at which you get a 10th tick of Light's Hammer. However, not only is this nearly unattainable with current gear, it would also be incredibly stressing on your mana pool.


Got the maths in a viewable spreadsheet? I have 1646 haste at the moment unbuffed and I'm getting the Sacred Shield (apsorb part) 6 times, the 6th is coming literally as SS itself falls off.

#57 Sparty

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:04 PM

Got the maths in a viewable spreadsheet? I have 1646 haste at the moment unbuffed and I'm getting the Sacred Shield (apsorb part) 6 times, the 6th is coming literally as SS itself falls off.


Maths of Pandaria: Healer Haste Breakpoint Cards - Blogs - Totem Spot

#58 Highmeh

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:13 PM

Maths of Pandaria: Healer Haste Breakpoint Cards - Blogs - Totem Spot


Note: Light's Hammer and Execution Sentence don't actually scale with haste, so ignore those on the table. Light's Hammer should always be 16 ticks, and Execution Sentence should always be 10 ticks.

Edit: I left a note for Binkenstein (author of the tables linked above and an overall brilliant theorycrafter) to update the holy paladin one specifically for the level 90 talents, so you should see those removed from the table at some point in the future. :)

#59 LunaSaint

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 10:57 AM

I've noticed an interesting buggy interaction with Hammer of Wrath and Holy Avenger. HoW generates 2 holy power while HA is up, as if the spell generated 0 hp in normal situations. This isn't the case with Judgement, either.

But considering that HoW costs next to no mana, this looks like a useful way to squeeze out that extra bit of healing during some of the more intense parts of encounters.

Examples in the current tier where you'll want to use HA and HoW is available:
Gara'jal's frenzy, Elegon (all kinds of opportunities thanks to adds), Spirit Kings on heroic, too.

Almost certain it is a bug, though. Can't expect this interaction to last.

#60 Rrui

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 06:27 PM

Why would you use HA though?




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