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[MoP] Protection Warrior


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#1 Berthold

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:09 AM

*will update with your smart ideas and talent/glyph recommendations*
Credit: Tauftamir
Mogu'shan Vaults

The Stone Guard
Bladestorm - Situational use in popping a chain cobalt mines, if freedom abilities from other classes are at a premium. If this isn't needed, Avatar seems the most helpful as the enrage timer (if it exists) is not challenging on any difficulty.

Vigilance - As safeguard cannot be used on the second tank, this doubles up as an extra cooldown for them. The unlimited taunts are less useful because you must have cast it before taunting, otherwise it will not take effect until taunt comes off cooldown. This would require you to know in advance that you are going to mess it up.

Feng the Accursed
Safeguard - Given the frequency of tank swaps, having this available each time the other tank takes over is useful.

Shockwave - Useful for stunning the shadow minions spawned by the shield.

Dragon Roar - If stuns and snares are plentiful in your setup, you should be able to utilise Dragon Roar on each spawn of shadow minions.

Gara'jal the Spiritbinder
Safeguard - You can intervene shadow attacks, when you are not tanking, and use this on three occasions (pre-banishment, emergence, and before the other tank is banished) per tanking round.

Dragon Roar+BB can be used at the start of your tank round, and again to effectively one-shot one of your severer's, reducing the need for your DPS to help you.

The Spirit Kings
You can get some decent mileage out of Shockwave and Stormbolt for dealing with Subetai's Slight of Hand ability. You can keep him stunned for the full duration (until pillage) with both. You can also interrupt pillage completely with a stun (use the ability as pillage comes off cooldown).

Vigilance is reasonably useful for protecting people hit by pinning arrow, though other classes have much better tools for dealing with that than we do.

Elegon

Use Dragon Roar with Bloodbath for burst on the adds between phases (Group them all up with Mocking Banner for AoE/Control). Glyph of Heroic Leap is also handy, as on whichever crystal wave your group struggles with the most you can utilise a Bloodbath'ed Leap and Dragon Roar to hit all three crystals on one side and knock off a good third of the HP, plus the followup damage from the bleed.

Will of the Emperor

Piercing Howl, to drop a slow on Courage's which spawn on my side, but this is temporary and very situational. Vigilance is handy to allow certain classes to soak Titan Sparks if they have weaker personal cooldowns.
Avatar is useful if a Courage actually reaches you.
Glyph of Leap and Enraged Speed are semi-useful, for dodging devastating arcs if you have trouble with that.

Heart of Fear

Imperial Vizier Zor'lok

Blade Lord Ta'yak

Garalon

Wind Lord Mel'jarak

Amber-Shaper Un'sok

Grand Empress Shek'zeer


Terrace of Endless Spring

Protectors of the Endless

Tsulong

Lei Shi

Sha of Fear

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#2 Berthold

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:10 AM

placeholder for T15 Boss information.
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#3 Berthold

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:12 AM

placeholder for T16 Boss information.
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#4 Berthold

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:12 AM

placeholder for T17 ? Boss information.
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#5 squishye

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:49 PM

Optimal Dodge/Parry %:
D = (90.4 * P + 5.01 * 237.1 - 3.219 * 90.4) / 237.1

D: optimal dodge (%)
P: current parry (%)

D: 7.60 / P: 10.00
D: 7.98 / P: 11.00
D: 8.36 / P: 12.00
D: 8.74 / P: 13.00
D: 9.12 / P: 14.00
D: 9.50 / P: 15.00
D: 9.88 / P: 16.00
D: 10.26 / P: 17.00
D: 10.65 / P: 18.00
D: 11.03 / P: 19.00
D: 11.41 / P: 20.00
D: 11.79 / P: 21.00
D: 12.17 / P: 22.00

#6 Krennick

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:13 AM

Good overview.

I disagree slightly with some of the conclusions about stamina - there is such a thing as health sufficiency after which stamina is of limited value. And since you likely reach sufficiency with one or two stamina trinkets and regemming and reforging is not something you can do on the fly I would recommend gemming, enchanting and reforging for secondary stats.

Also, do not disregard strength so quickly. Every 100 points of strength are worth something like 93/94 points of parry rating. That means the blue 463 plate pieces that are designed for tanking are worse for tanking than the balanced pieces that happen not to have haste or crit - a loss of of effective secondary stats.

Like helm: 216 str vs 174 secondaries. Well 216 str is approximately 200 parry rating, so you would lose 26 points in secondary tanking stats by going to the item that is designed for tanking. This is napkin-math style off the top of my head (and using a higher str piece which in this case has haste or crit - but for some slots pieces do exist without haste or crit), but the times I've checked it with actual pieces it's been the same way. I am not sure it's still true for the 489 epics but this message is certainly true - don't dismiss strength.

#7 Lowmaine

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:45 AM

Just reading over this, I don't mean to sound nitpicky, but do you honestly recommend 15% Expertise in tank gear? Seems a little overkill don't you think? At least until maybe Heroic T14 at the earliest if we wanna still be able to have some avoidance and mastery. >_>;

Also, on the note of Talents specifically centric to Protection; what's your opinion on the final tier? Avatar seems like a decent survival cooldown due to the boost in rage generation, and it's also very nice for damage. Bloodbath is the choice for pure DPS and Storm Bolt hits like a truck.

#8 Baenhoof

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 06:11 AM

Also, on the note of Talents specifically centric to Protection; what's your opinion on the final tier?


Talents should be situationally chosen, as stated in the OP. Personally, I tend to prefer Avatar for pulling single-target boss encounters, if only to generate rage for initial shield blocks/barriers faster. It also comes in handy in just about every situation for the same reason. I like to use it on a tank swap, too, for generating a spot of extra threat.
I have not personally found a use for Bloodbath yet but I imagine it would come in handy in a fight that required kiting.
I have also gotten the most use out of Stormbolt when on add duty.

But obviously, YMMV.

#9 Berthold

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 06:46 AM

squishye, linked your post regarding ratios.

krennick, do you have some more background for strength being so strong? I (tried to) model the current diminishing return formulaes in simcraft and it's giving me 1 strength ~ 0.3 parry after DR. I also changed the stamina section.

Regarding expertise being so high.. The question is why not? It's generating a lot of rage, which we can turn into SBlock/SBar meaning more avoidance and ends up being *more* damage reduction than dodge/parry.
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#10 Berthold

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 06:54 AM

Boss hitting a tank hard:

Gear + 1000 mastery: max hit for 50.3% HP, average hit 14.1% hp.
Gear + 2000 mastery: max hit for 50.3% HP, average hit 13.9% hp.
Gear + 1500 stamina: max hit for 47.7% HP, average hit 13.7% hp.

This means that not only the trinket slot (1000 mastery vs 1500 stamina) goes to stamina, but you also would like to socket stamina (2000 mastery vs 1500 stamina) if you are going to minimize *relative* damage taken.
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#11 Lowmaine

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:11 AM

Oh, quick macro for Dodge/Parry ratios that Waniou has in his Diminishing Returns thread on the WoW Forums:

/run d=GetDodgeChance() p=235.5*d/65.631440-((235.5/65.631440)*5.01-3.22) DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Ideal parry for current dodge: "..string.format("%.2f",p))


#12 Krennick

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:12 AM

Always be aware that I may be full of bullshit - my facts and data are interspersed with opinion. In the matter of strength I feel I'm on pretty solid ground tho.

At level 90 I used some +parry and +str food and judged how much more parry % (after diminishing returns) I got out of it as seen on my character sheet. Without concerning myself with exact numbers I concluded that 100 str was equal to about 95 parry rating. Then a day or two after I read some tank threads somewhere (here or tankspot most likely) where someone said that 1 str was worth 0.94 parry and someone else corrected him saying that according to the formulas (which I happily admit not knowing) it is more like 0.93 (with some nitpicky additional digits thrown in for fun and games)

And to revisit the stamina point - I'm not denying that higher stamina is less relative damage taken. This is only important if you are concerned about your health % at any given point. This is only really a critical bit if death (the magical 0%) is likely to occur. Higher stamina is also higher absolute damage taken - and when healer mana economy is taken into account that can be quite important.

If a fight goes thus that the tank rarely goes below half health as long as the healers have mana - the tank could arguably swap ALL stamina to hit/expertise/dodge/parry and become less of a drain on healer mana. It's true that it's death that we need to worry about - and the worst case scenario. But if the worst case scenario doesn't even get close to killing the tank, stamina is not necessary to stack. It is in fact worthless.

Edit: I did not "judge" - I calculated how much parry I got out of every point of str and parry rating and used that to judge the two stats against each other while ignoring diminishing returns.

#13 Krennick

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:22 AM

About the shield block vs shield barrier - there is one element of the discussion I think is missing - the worst case scenario. Quoting myself from tank spot this morning:

Worst case scenario - shield block. You use shield block, not knowing or thinking that a lot of the dmg incoming is not blockable. End result is that you use rage and get no mitigation for it.
Worst case scenario - shield barrier. You might mitigate slightly less than you would have if you had used shield block. You still get some decent mitigation out of your rage.

Therefore the DEFAULT recommendation should be to use shield barrier. It would allow even unthinking idiots not to ruin things for themselves. It might not always be best, but it will always be good.


Ofc don't put THAT in the initial post. But think about whether this angle deserves some air time. The fact that shield block misapplied is a 100% waste of rage - where as shield barrier misapplied still does good mitigation.

Ignoring ofc that using either while taking no dmg is the same kind of wasted rage and therefore irrelevant to any comparison.

#14 Malevolencia

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:55 PM

squishye, linked your post regarding ratios.

krennick, do you have some more background for strength being so strong? I (tried to) model the current diminishing return formulaes in simcraft and it's giving me 1 strength ~ 0.3 parry after DR. I also changed the stamina section.

Regarding expertise being so high.. The question is why not? It's generating a lot of rage, which we can turn into SBlock/SBar meaning more avoidance and ends up being *more* damage reduction than dodge/parry.


Think that's the old model of str where it gave ~25% parry rating (plus some bonuses). Testing it now ingame by swapping between a str ring with parry and a str ring without, and then removing the ring slot entirely, I find that str is very close to parry now, about 95% rating from str as already stated.

For basic boss tips:

Stone Guard, never use shield block, shield barrier 100% as the dot is not blockable and does like 70%+ of the boss' dps

Feng, here the magic damage is high, but personally (on heroic) I found the damage intake smoother with using shield block nonetheless. I will admit I died both ways to some of his burst, but I did seem to die less often using shield block. Stacking some more stamina on this one is probably good for surviving the burst..

Gara'jal, it is possible to have shield block up for every single shadowy attack (assuming tanks rotate every ~minute when banished) and important that you do so. He uses it reliably, so whenever the timer is below 6seconds to the next shadowy attack it is safe to activate shield block. You should activate it as early as possible for each shadowy attack (as due to the 9sec cd, your usages will get later and later as the fight progresses). This assumes you have enough hit/exp to maintain rage generation ofc.

Spirit Kings, nothing really special. Melee dmg mainly so block > barrier for smoothing damage on the tank.

Elegon, try to have a big barrier (60 rage) ready for the breathes and adds exploding.

Will of the Emperor, shield block all the way. You should be able to pool rage and block-charges while doing the dance, and then have near 100% uptime on block when the boss is actually meleeing you.

Safeguard is imo the best talent from that tier for any boss with 2 tanks rotating, mass reflect rarely works on anything (Lei Shi? only, in beta, anyway..) and vigilance is just worse due to the much longer cd for not much dmg reduction gain.

#15 squishye

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:17 PM

Oh, quick macro for Dodge/Parry ratios that Waniou has in his Diminishing Returns thread on the WoW Forums:

/run d=GetDodgeChance() p=235.5*d/65.631440-((235.5/65.631440)*5.01-3.22) DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Ideal parry for current dodge: "..string.format("%.2f",p))


The macro for that Dodge/Parry ratio is not right. It uses dodge DR constant from lv85 (65.63) instead of the right one at lv90 (90.4). And I don't agree with the parry DR constant either, but since our numbers are very close, it probably doesn't matter. If you follow that macro, you'll end up having too much parry like most prot warriors in "top guilds".

Think that's the old model of str where it gave ~25% parry rating (plus some bonuses). Testing it now ingame by swapping between a str ring with parry and a str ring without, and then removing the ring slot entirely, I find that str is very close to parry now, about 95% rating from str as already stated.


And here is the number for strength/parry ratio, so people can stop guessing: 952 STR = 1% Parry before DR, so 1 STR = 0.9296 (885/952=0.9296) parry rating. It takes "buffed" STR, so Mark/King (plate specialization if not in prot) will increase your parry rating.

#16 Berthold

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:48 PM

Malevolencia was right. Using the current conversion gives me indeed good value out of strength. Will update the OP tomorrow-ish
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#17 Charybdis

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:49 PM

You'll probably need a few sentences to go over the parry and strength quirks because there's base gear, trinkets, enchants, and gems to cover.

On the base gear front it'll be fairly obvious that parry goes up considerably since all warrior plate has strength on it. What needs more thought are the situations where we have lowered strength on a piece to increase a secondary stat. Thanks to reforging the extra secondary stats will probably be more useful than the raw strength lost.

With trinkets it's worthwhile to note that there are no parry trinkets in heroics or raids in MoP yet, so if tanks want avoidance from trinkets it'll have to be with dodge or strength. It is possible strength will come out ahead because it's almost as effective as parry but also provides some extra oomph to SBar, even though that extra contribution isn't much compared to what vengeance contributes.

With enchants there will be choices like Bracer: Major Dodge versus Bracer; Exceptional Strength. 170 dodge versus 170 strength might end up favoring the strength enchant for the same reasons it does for trinkets: Still worth about the same as parry, but helps with SBar (and DPS).

Both trinkets and enchants can do double time for DPS pieces too. Base items can also do it, but with the overlap only being expertise/hit/mastery and the possibility of a DPS spec not liking mastery it's less likely to be fully effective.

Gems change things. If it were 1:1 strength, parry, and dodge, strength might end up winning. Because secondary stats get double the rating amount though, the secondary stats are the clear winner for absolute ratings. Since expertise, mastery, and hit cover red, yellow, and blue sockets, respectively, worrying about strength probably isn't an issue.

Speaking of gems, there are the meta gems to consider. , , and all have their uses. I have not seen any discussion on them yet but chances are will minimize relative damage taken more than on physical fights as per the numbers on page 1. For absolute damage reduction there will probably be a certain mastery point where overtakes if it doesn't already do it from the start, but the various fights really need to be weighed to consider how much damage is blockable.

#18 Berthold

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:16 AM

Changed strength part, updated macro using Level 90 cap, added wowhead gear links using T14H level scalefactors.
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#19 BluBlaBlu

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 08:56 PM

Hard cap on Expertise? Isn't too much? Just asking

#20 Cthalupa

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 08:57 AM

Just reading over this, I don't mean to sound nitpicky, but do you honestly recommend 15% Expertise in tank gear? Seems a little overkill don't you think? At least until maybe Heroic T14 at the earliest if we wanna still be able to have some avoidance and mastery. >_>;

Also, on the note of Talents specifically centric to Protection; what's your opinion on the final tier? Avatar seems like a decent survival cooldown due to the boost in rage generation, and it's also very nice for damage. Bloodbath is the choice for pure DPS and Storm Bolt hits like a truck.


The last 7.5% is just as valuable as the first 7.5% since you're attacking the boss from the front. There's no reason to feel that getting to 15% is any less worthwhile than getting to 7.5%, unless you're sitting at full rage all the time, or have enough rage to completely mitigate all of the incoming damage. With SBar and SBlock being so heavy on your rage usage and being your best guaranteed way of reducing or eliminating incoming damage, hitting 15% is going to be a very very safe bet.




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