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[MoP] Protection Warrior


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#21 A1win

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 09:51 AM

The last 7.5% expertise is only half as valuable as the first 7.5% by definition since it only affects parry and not dodge and parry. However, since the first half actually increases your chance to hit by 15%, it's twice as good as hit, and the second half equal to hit. Or am I wrong? Do bosses actually have 15% chance to parry and 7.5% chance to dodge?

#22 Charybdis

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 10:35 AM

The last 7.5% expertise is only half as valuable as the first 7.5% by definition since it only affects parry and not dodge and parry. However, since the first half actually increases your chance to hit by 15%, it's twice as good as hit, and the second half equal to hit. Or am I wrong? Do bosses actually have 15% chance to parry and 7.5% chance to dodge?


Incorrect on both. Bosses have 7.5% dodge and 7.5% parry, and Expertise affects dodge first then parry, hence why its value is steady. As stated in the OP, Blizz has done an excellent job of balancing the various tank stats, which means expertise is not twice as valuable as hit for the first 7.5% because then that wouldn't be balanced.

#23 A1win

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 11:45 AM

Incorrect on both. Bosses have 7.5% dodge and 7.5% parry, and Expertise affects dodge first then parry, hence why its value is steady. As stated in the OP, Blizz has done an excellent job of balancing the various tank stats, which means expertise is not twice as valuable as hit for the first 7.5% because then that wouldn't be balanced.


Ah, that makes things easier then. So in other words, expertise becomes better after the "soft cap" for tanks (and it doesn't make sense to call it a "soft cap" anymore), since removing a parry also decreases damage taken on its own due to not granting a faster hit for the boss (assuming parry still works this way). If I'm not wrong again, this should mean that it's better to get 15% expertise instead of 7.5% expertise and 7.5% hit.

#24 Dots

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 12:28 PM

Many bosses had parry haste disabled since TBC and it was subsequently completely removed from the game, I think that happened with Cataclysm. The only difference between expertise "soft cap" and "hard cap" now is that the parry reduction won't do anything while attacking from the back.

#25 kagan

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 08:39 PM

The last 7.5% is just as valuable as the first 7.5% since you're attacking the boss from the front. There's no reason to feel that getting to 15% is any less worthwhile than getting to 7.5%, unless you're sitting at full rage all the time, or have enough rage to completely mitigate all of the incoming damage. With SBar and SBlock being so heavy on your rage usage and being your best guaranteed way of reducing or eliminating incoming damage, hitting 15% is going to be a very very safe bet.


very safe, but in current gear getting 15% exp is almost near impossible, unless your specifically gearing your trinkets to get it, but then you are sacrificing 2600~ stamina.

i honestly don't think its worth it in current gear, but it may be something to look at with heroic stats.

im pretty comfortable with the EH>hit=exp>mastery>2xparry=dodge

#26 Dots

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 11:38 PM

It's very easy to cap both hit and expertise with gems, enchants and reforge even in 463 gear. That still leaves the trinket slots for stamina, which is plenty at least for 10 man. 25 might be different, but being in full control of your rage is really good either way.

#27 Iol

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 09:54 PM

And to revisit the stamina point - I'm not denying that higher stamina is less relative damage taken. This is only important if you are concerned about your health % at any given point. This is only really a critical bit if death (the magical 0%) is likely to occur. Higher stamina is also higher absolute damage taken - and when healer mana economy is taken into account that can be quite important.


Well, not to nitpick but if you are taking into account healer mana efficiency, you need to consider the type of healer. As a shaman, your health % at any given point is quite important to me. If you can survive 2 non-blocked boss hit with 50% HP instead of needing 60% hp, that roughly translate to a 6% healing bonus on my end, at those HP %, at my current gear level. (Overall its a bit more complex than that, but thats for us shaman to worry about...) Also, a shaman healer will up your HP by 10%, giving more value to stam.

However, I'm not saying that you should stack stam over everything if you have a Shaman healer. What I am saying is that you may want to give more value to stam with a shaman healer and less with a disc priest since stam doesnt change much to how their shields protect you, however they like it when you parry more and their shields stay up a bit longer during its cooldown.

So maybe those stam trinkets are better than avoidance trinkets when healed by a shaman and to an extent a druid (hots do a better job if you arent topped all the time). The opposite could be true when healed by a priest or paladin (absorb mecanics).

Some food for thoughts.
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#28 kagan

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:31 PM

It's very easy to cap both hit and expertise with gems, enchants and reforge even in 463 gear. That still leaves the trinket slots for stamina, which is plenty at least for 10 man. 25 might be different, but being in full control of your rage is really good either way.



capping 5100 exp (15%) is not easy unless specifically gemmed/trinketed for. I know there is one dps STR trinket with 800 something expertise, i sit with an ilvl of 476 with dual stam trinkets and reforging to 4760 exp(racial) and 2500 hit is unreachable in my current gear.

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getting parried is annoying, but i dont think its worth losing mastery/stam for the last 7.5% just yet.

#29 Deadalious

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 03:49 PM

What enchant are you guys using? Colossus seems awesome because it literally is almost up, however 7,500 isn't really anywhere near remotely useful in 25 man.

River's song is obviously the one aimed at tanks, however, having 1450 dodge up for 7 seconds twice every minute seems to pale in comparison to 1450 strength.

#30 Tauftamir

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 05:09 PM

*will update with your smart ideas and talent/glyph recommendations*


Some observations on talent and glyph choices, I suspect this will be a source of discussion later in the thread.
My view is based on 10 Man Heroics (so YMMV).

Stone Guard:

Bladestorm - Situational use in popping a chain cobalt mines, if freedom abilities from other classes are at a premium. If this isn't needed, Avatar seems the most helpful as the enrage timer (if it exists) is not challenging on any difficulty.

Vigilance - As safeguard cannot be used on the second tank, this doubles up as an extra cooldown for them. The unlimited taunts are less useful because you must have cast it before taunting, otherwise it will not take effect until taunt comes off cooldown. This would require you to know in advance that you are going to mess it up.

Feng:

Safeguard - Given the frequency of tank swaps, having this available each time the other tank takes over is useful.

Shockwave - Useful for stunning the shadow minions spawned by the shield.

Dragon Roar - If stuns and snares are plentiful in your setup, you should be able to utilise Dragon Roar on each spawn of shadow minions.

Gara'Jal:

Safeguard - You can intervene shadow attacks, when you are not tanking, and use this on three occasions (pre-banishment, emergence, and before the other tank is banished) per tanking round.

Dragon Roar - Given the tight enrage, Dragon Roar (I believe?) sims best as a DPS talent, and can be used at the start of your tank round, and again to effectively one-shot one of your severer's, reducing the need for your DPS to help you.

Bloodbath - As above, I believe this also sims as the best DPS talent, and can be coupled with Dragon Roar for additional burst on these abilities. I find avatar less useful as there are very few gaps in SB/SBar with hit and expertise gear while tanking this boss, and the gaps can be covered with cooldowns.

Glyphs - Heavy Repercussions/Hold the Line - Depending on your RDPS, I find both of these helpful for increasing damage against the boss.

Re: The tanking enchant question -

I am currently using Dancing Steel, though I believe Berthold has completed the sims using Rivers Song.

I suppose the question is whether the dodge proc suffers a harsh enough DR to be worse at 2PPM compared to the Strength (Parry) from Dancing Steel at 1PPM.

Have you completed any analysis on these Berthold or would another person simming them be helpful?

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#31 A1win

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 02:27 AM

getting parried is annoying, but i dont think its worth losing mastery/stam for the last 7.5% just yet.


The last 7.5% expertise is just as useful as the first 7.5% expertise (as was discussed earlier). Why would you get it to 7.5% instead of, let's say, 5%, or 10%? Shouldn't it either be 0% or 15%? The same goes for hit since, in practice, it literally does the same thing as expertise.

I don't see any reason not to go for 7.5% hit and 15% expertise if you're going for them at all, except for not having high enough EHP, in which case stamina seems better until that criteria is filled. Other than that, gemming/reforging for hit and expertise seems like an all or nothing choice to me. After that, the decision comes down to stat weights.

#32 Morghie

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 03:24 AM

Actually River's Song stacks, and the act of stacking also resets the timer of the buff you get. In my opinion this makes it at least comparable to the 1450 strength.

#33 Berthold

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:34 AM

kagan, if you don't want to gem/enchant or select trinkets for expertise, then do not be surprised that you are not getting the exp cap. :-)
deadalious, if you run the numbers, river's song gives a little bite more damage reduction than dancing steel, but the latter gives more dps. Added to OP.
tauftamir, thanks for those suggestions, Added to OP. IIRC bloodbath does not work with dragon roar. Still a good choice for more dmg.
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#34 Gorinho

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 03:14 PM

What enchant are you guys using? Colossus seems awesome because it literally is almost up, however 7,500 isn't really anywhere near remotely useful in 25 man.

River's song is obviously the one aimed at tanks, however, having 1450 dodge up for 7 seconds twice every minute seems to pale in comparison to 1450 strength.


Weapon Chain - 200 Expertise

since all the rest suck and dancing steel is quite expensive for a blue weapon :(

#35 Dots

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:16 PM

IIRC bloodbath does not work with dragon roar. Still a good choice for more dmg.


It didn't always do that in the beta, but it was changed at some point. Bloodbath does work with Dragon's Roar now.

#36 Deadalious

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:20 PM

Weapon Chain - 200 Expertise

since all the rest suck and dancing steel is quite expensive for a blue weapon :(

Psch! I'm not some mesely blue weapon using peasant!

I think I might go with dancing steel however, even if River's Song gives a little bit overall more DR, It still gets effected by Diminishing and I have a lot of stuff(sadly) with dodge on it.

#37 Rudon13

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:44 PM

Ok looking for some input here as to how I can improve my dps as prot. I know i'm not suppose to be topping anything but i feel like i'm hindering my raid being 15-20k below everyone else. is it because im off tank and therefore dont get enough vengeance/rage? I know in a few of the fights i could use cds a little more liberal but i was saving for burn phases which maybe i got a little to conservative. but any help is appreciated as to how to improve my prot warrior dps!

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#38 zork

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:35 PM

...any help is appreciated as to how to improve my prot warrior dps!


Check Enk: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (Armory)
Compare that to your parse: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

He even outdps'ed the arms warrior of his raid. I cannot tell if he wore dps items in that fight. That depends heavily on his current gear level but nevertheless. If you check his abilities it lists Dragon Breath and Execute.

Some things to get from his parse:
- Execute is his 5th important damaging ability
- Dragon Breath (hopefully he did not use that on MC'ed players ...)
- He leaped 9 times, you did none
- You have the same Devastate count as Revenge. This seems unlikely. I would guess that you miss alot of options to use Devastate.

Execute and Vengeance together result in some serious dps. You should make use of that if your survivability can hold up. Make sure to stack up rage prior to the execute phase and use the 120 rage glyph.

I cannot find Bloodbath in the parse and I'm not sure if Bloodbath converts into Deep Wounds but combining Bloodbath and Dragon Roar or Blood Bath and Execute can result in some pretty heavy dot ticks.

On a sidenote. This is an interesting topic for the guide. Which abilities should a prot warrior use dps-wise in the following scenarios: single target, 2-target, 3-target, 4 or more targets? It should be possible to create a priority list on that. It can be complicated if the amount of Vengeance favors certain abilities.

If you have not heard of CLT yet make sure to check out Landsoul's CLT video. It basically tells you how to set up custom latency tolerance to 250ms+your ping. This allows you to combine off cooldown abilities without any gap added by the server.
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#39 Rudon13

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:52 PM

so its recommended to take dragon's roar+BB over shockwave+avatar since nerf hasnt gone live yet? my guild isnt hardcore so we arent even started on heroics yet so survivability is still the most important for me but i still feel like I shouldnt be that low in dps

#40 Berthold

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:40 AM

If you compare melee swings, you can see that he has a lot more AP (possibly from vengeance), which I assume to be the primary reason for the differences. Still, I see some place for an Off-Tank/DPS section for the guide. Your thoughts are welcome. Please provide simcraft/ World of Logs to prove your point.
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