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[MoP] Protection Warrior


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#41 Rudon13

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:04 AM

If you compare melee swings, you can see that he has a lot more AP (possibly from vengeance), which I assume to be the primary reason for the differences. Still, I see some place for an Off-Tank/DPS section for the guide. Your thoughts are welcome. Please provide simcraft/ World of Logs to prove your point.


i was wondering if that was alot to do with it and have started using safeguard on cd on the MT to try to get some more vengeance and its helped a little bit but i still feel like im holding back the raid when our MT is a dk doing 20k more dps than me if not more on certain fights. it just feels like they've hindered off tank dps with vengeance being such a huge part of a tanks dps

#42 A1win

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 01:54 AM

i was wondering if that was alot to do with it and have started using safeguard on cd on the MT to try to get some more vengeance and its helped a little bit but i still feel like im holding back the raid when our MT is a dk doing 20k more dps than me if not more on certain fights. it just feels like they've hindered off tank dps with vengeance being such a huge part of a tanks dps


Taking Vengeance from the MT to the OT doesn't do anything to raid DPS. You shouldn't be worrying about that because it's just the way the game works. Just let the rest of the raid realize that too if they are questioning your DPS.

#43 kagan

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:39 PM

i was wondering if that was alot to do with it and have started using safeguard on cd on the MT to try to get some more vengeance and its helped a little bit but i still feel like im holding back the raid when our MT is a dk doing 20k more dps than me if not more on certain fights. it just feels like they've hindered off tank dps with vengeance being such a huge part of a tanks dps


on OT fights your dps will be low, on fights like elegon/stone guard(main tank)/emps you should be pushing 80-100k on those fights. fights where you are purely OT/utility tank will be alot lower.

#44 Gritty

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:55 PM

Theck's and my own work both show that Shield Barrier reduces melee damage taken ~10% more than Shield Block if you are getting hit very regularly, i.e., your vengeance level is on par with the incoming damage. However, if you are just started tanking the boss, or he does a very strong melee attack only once in a while, shield block will be your choice directly before the attack.


Could you show me what formula you used for this result. Assuming a static fight with ~70k vengeance blockable hits only, I am finding Shield Block is ~30% stronger than Shield Barrier. Where Barrier will absorb ~160k my math brings me to around ~210k damage blocked (caused from Shield Block and excluding regular block) from this said boss who only uses blockable attacks and averages you at 70k vengeance.

#45 Berthold

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 04:38 PM

Napkin Math is here http://elitistjerks....20/#post2197684. Also simcraft has full support for protection warriors (and you can just sim SBar vs SBlock). I should make this more prominent in the OP.
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#46 damagedgoods

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:59 PM

I was just watching directions about that MoP prot warrior only using Heroic Strike or Cleave on Ultimatum proc. Is there any negative impact to just completely ignoring the proc and not using it at all?

#47 Berthold

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 07:06 PM

It's free damage (on the off-gcd) and a chance for a weapon proc.... So sure you do not need to, but why wouldn't you.
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#48 Bryjoered

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:38 PM

Hi, why is hit ranked higher than expertise, they function in the same way. A miss is the same as a dodge or parry. Also, why is hit/exp ranked above mastery none of the best tanks seem to be sacrificing mastery to reach the hit/exp cap.

By your stat priority, warr tanks should be reaching the expertise cap before they even think about reforging for mastery, which just seems wrong. For right now it seems like the most common priority is stamina>mastery>hit (7.5) =exp(up to 15%)> parry>dodge

#49 Berthold

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:02 PM

I can't comment on what other tanks are doing, I only know what looks to be the best approach and that tells me that hit/expertise/mastery are pretty even, with parry and dodge coming closely after them. I can only imagine that a lot of people have a hard time forgetting that for ~8 years, hit/expertise were crappy tank stats.
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#50 Bryjoered

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:19 PM

spell miss is mitigated via hit, not expertise. And I can't comment on what other tanks are doing, I only know what looks to be the best approach and that tells me that hit/expertise/mastery are pretty even, with parry and dodge coming closely after them. I can only imagine that a lot of people have a hard time forgetting that for ~8 years, hit/expertise were crappy tank stats.

Even reading thecks blog about warriors brings me to the conclusion that hit/exp is the way to go, but I don't see where he says they outperform mastery. I still don't. see how a dodge and a miss are different. So your saying that hit governs two thing whether I miss and whether my spell hits. But what if my spell misses isn't that functionally the same as a miss or a dodge
As of patch 5.04 expertise and hit both add to spell hit for all classes,. Expertise only gives spell hit up to 7.5, so hit/exp are equal until exp one or both gets to 7.5. If exp gets there first, hit then needs to be leveled.

#51 Berthold

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:43 AM

you were obviously right with exp providing spell hit. I should stop replying early in the morning. Will comment on the other things soon.
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#52 Bryjoered

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:18 PM

Theck posted on the mr robot forums and said that exp and hit are exactly equal until caps. So, having 15% exp and 0% hit are the same as 7.5% exp and 7.5% hit

#53 A1win

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:20 PM

Theck posted on the mr robot forums and said that exp and hit are exactly equal until caps. So, having 15% exp and 0% hit are the same as 7.5% exp and 7.5% hit


I still believe that expertise only affects dodge and parry chance and hit only affects miss chance. They are still practically exactly identical until caps, even though they are technically different. 7.5% hit removes chance to miss, 7.5% expertise removes target's chance to dodge, and the last 7.5% expertise (to 15% total) removes target's chance to parry. Each provides an equal amount of chance of landing an attack (parry obviously only if you hit from front), but they do it in different ways. It would be silly to have two stats do the exact same thing.

#54 Bryjoered

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:45 PM

I still believe that expertise only affects dodge and parry chance and hit only affects miss chance. They are still practically exactly identical until caps, even though they are technically different. 7.5% hit removes chance to miss, 7.5% expertise removes target's chance to dodge, and the last 7.5% expertise (to 15% total) removes target's chance to parry. Each provides an equal amount of chance of landing an attack (parry obviously only if you hit from front), but they do it in different ways. It would be silly to have two stats do the exact same thing.


Yeah, so 15% exp and zero hit would leave you with zero chance for the boss to parry or dodge your attack but 7.5% for your attack to miss. 7.5 hit and 7.5 exp would leave you with zero chance for your target to dodge the attack and zero chance for your target to be missed, but 7.5% chance to parry. Same shit either way. The boss has an equal chance of dodging/paarying/being missed intially.

#55 Berthold

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 09:16 AM

Regarding mastery being valued better than hit/exp by others. There is an undocumented internal cooldown of 3 secs for gaining rage from a critical block. It might be that Theck didn't implement this when doing his analysis. This has a significant impact on the mastery value.

Hit being valued slightly above expertise is due to thunderclap ignoring parry/dodge anyways.
I just ran the latest simcraft for a T14H tank getting hit by 700k before mitigation every 2.5secs:

SBlock on CD, extra rage into SBar
Hit: 0.7, Exp: 0.66, Mastery 0.62, Parry 0.48, Strength 0.47, Dodge 0.43

SBar on CD without overwriting the buff
Hit: 0.68, Exp: 0.67, Parry 0.51, Strength 0.5, Dodge 0.46, Mastery 0.4
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#56 Bryjoered

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:12 AM

Thunderclap has such a minimal impact on a boss fight though. Unless you are add tanking, where it will be used on cooldown basically, you use it once every 30 seconds or maybe not at all if someone in your raid can apply the "weakened blows" debuff. Still, I see what you're saying weird the Mastery has that pointless internal cooldown, but Theck said that Mastery is definitely slightly better in terms of total damage reduction.

#57 Berthold

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 07:36 AM

If somebody else is providing weakened blows, then Hit/Exp are identical.

And regarding Mastery: As I was saying, without modeling the ICD of Crit Block, mastery is better. Taking it into account, it loses a lot of its value. I would assume that this is the reason why theck and I/Simcraft come to different results.

Without the ICD our defensive capability would scale with the number of mobs, i.e., 10 mobs hitting for 20k would give us more rage (thus more active mitigation) than a single mob hitting for 200k. We would be a lot better on multi-target fights than the other tanks (Prot Pala trash tank anyone??). So this might be the reason for it.
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#58 Bloodhawker

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 01:24 PM

Not only Thunderclap, but Shockwave (not sure about that) and Dragon Roar (definitely) aren't affected by expertise as well. While Dragon Roar is offensive only, Shockwave can have defensive value on stunnable targets.

Without the ICD our defensive capability would scale with the number of mobs

We still have an effect that does this: Revenge resetting on avoiding.

#59 Berthold

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 01:40 PM

You are definitely right, yet the revenge resetting only scales up to a small number of mobs, as we only can hit revenge every 1.5 seconds at most. We also do not want to clip Shield Slam, so assuming combined dodge+parry of 25%, three mobs with a swing timer of 1.5 are already giving enough procs: Over 6 seconds we are attacked 12 times, thus dodge or parry 3 times, allowing for SS ->Rev -> Rev -> Rev
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#60 Tauftamir

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 06:23 PM

but Theck said that Mastery is definitely slightly better in terms of total damage reduction.


I believe this is the follow-up blog which Theck posted - L90 Warrior Mitigation Followup | Sacred Duty

I think that whether you use hit and expertise comes down to a damage smoothing argument. Hit and expertise might not give you the highest TDR, but they give you more Shield Barriers to use in the gaps between SB casts, which smooths your damage intake. It’s much the same rationale as the “Bleed” vs “Shield Barrier Only” comparison in the blog post.

I’m in the “damage smoothing” camp myself, so I see no problem with aiming for hit and expertise caps (soft or hard, depending on preference) before stacking more mastery.


I understand Theck's analysis misses some points raised earlier in the thread, but the conclusion on his analysis was that by gearing towards hit and expertise, you smooth damage taken.
Tanks are usually killed in a burst window of 3-4 unmitigated hits, which can be smoothed by having Hit and Expertise.
My experience is that it's very difficult to smooth spike damage when you cannot guarantee that rage generators will land in a specific time window before a burst ability.

Further, Theck's analysis showed that hit and expertise were very powerful stats in a "tank switch" scenario, due to being able to start tanking with 120 rage pooled. These situations also represent a majority of actual tanking situations in current content, with the only "solo tank" boss being Spirit Kings heroic (where only Meng and Subetai do any appreciable melee damage), Zorlok in normal (where there are repeated breaks in melee damage being taken), and arguably Mel'jarak (where you can revenge enough to keep full rage anyway).

Lastly, I'm finding in MoP that the damage I am contributing as a tank is much more relevant than in previous expansions. This comment in anecdotal, but for me, the difference between contributing 40k DPS and 80k DPS is significant in terms of overall encounter success compared to keeping up-time on Shield Block/Shield Barrier as high as possible in situations where it is actually unnecessary.

To go back to your original question, this is why I've chosen the gearing strategy I'm currently using.
However with a reforging mount and reforgelite, it's very straightforward to change stat allocations around on a per fight basis if necessary.

TLDR

It's really no different than the latest prot warrior theorycraft which says mastery is THE BEST STAT, when in reality warrior mastery is a giant fucking pile of shit. It relies on you gaining rage via crit block which assumes the boss is constantly hitting you at a reasonable quick pace which hasn't happened in like 3 expansions or something.


On a separate topic for the fight specific talents/glyphs, I have a few more observations:

Spirit Kings:

You can get some decent mileage out of Shockwave and Stormbolt for dealing with Subetai's Slight of Hand ability. You can keep him stunned for the full duration (until pillage) with both if you don't have someone else in the raid to deal with it. You can also interrupt pillage completely with a stun (use the ability as pillage comes off cooldown).

Vigilance is reasonably useful for protecting people hit by pinning arrow, though other classes have much better tools for dealing with that than we do.

I usually run DPS increasing glyphs for this boss (e.g. Incite, HTL) as only Meng does any real damage.

Elegon:

I prefer to use Dragon Roar with Bloodbath for burst on the adds between phases (I group them all up with Mocking Banner for AoE/Control). Glyph of Heroic Leap is also handy, as on whichever crystal wave your group struggles with the most you can utilise a Bloodbath'ed Leap and Dragon Roar to hit all three crystals on one side and knock off a good third of the HP, plus the followup damage from the bleed.

Will of the Emperor:

I quite like Piercing Howl, to drop a slow on Courage's which spawn on my side, but this is temporary and very situational. Vigilance is handy to allow certain classes to soak Titan Sparks if they have weaker personal cooldowns.
Avatar is useful if a Courage actually reaches you. In reality this shouldn't happen, but it's nice in case it does.
Glyph of Leap and Enraged Speed are semi-useful, for dodging devastating arcs if you have trouble with that.

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