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#21 Mendenbarr

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 05:28 AM

I've started creating a sim for the waiting, and have managed to bump up the crit% of obliterate by 10%. However, for some reason the sim is not casting as many obliterates as the default profile, indicating it's over-capping runes at at some point.

Unless I'm missing something, the line
actions+=/obliterate,if=(Blood=2|Frost=2|Unholy=2)
should place not wasting runes as above everything else without a cooldown, rime excluded. However, when I remove the line
actions+=/obliterate,if=runic_power<=76
the sim loses 10 obliterates.

I've tried changing the (Blood=2|Frost=2|Unholy=2) to (Blood=>1.8|Frost>=1.8|Unholy>=1.8), but it doesn't seem to recognize a partial rune, and simply truncates it up to 2, leaving no change.

I'm assuming the problem lies in the sim letting the runes get to 2, being in the middle of a GCD or having rime up, and being unable to IMMEDIATELY spend them, causing them to overcap. If anyone can think of a way around this, I'd love to hear it.

If anyone can think of another reason the obliterates have dropped by 10%, i'd also love to hear it.

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#22 xbit

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 06:06 PM

Unless I'm missing something, the line
actions+=/obliterate,if=(Blood=2|Frost=2|Unholy=2)
should place not wasting runes as above everything else without a cooldown, rime excluded. However, when I remove the line
actions+=/obliterate,if=runic_power<=76
the sim loses 10 obliterates.

I've tried changing the (Blood=2|Frost=2|Unholy=2) to (Blood=>1.8|Frost>=1.8|Unholy>=1.8), but it doesn't seem to recognize a partial rune, and simply truncates it up to 2, leaving no change.

I'm assuming the problem lies in the sim letting the runes get to 2, being in the middle of a GCD or having rime up, and being unable to IMMEDIATELY spend them, causing them to overcap. If anyone can think of a way around this, I'd love to hear it.


simc will tell you if you're wasting runes in the resources section of the report. Example:

[TABLE]Resource Gains | Type | Count | Total | Average | Overflow |
rune_regen_all | None | 5529.23 | 152.27 | 0.03 | 2.97 | 1.92% |
rune_regen_unholy | None | 1841.79 | 50.80 | 0.03 | 0.94 | 1.81% |
rune_regen_blood | None | 1856.48 | 50.38 | 0.03 | 1.37 | 2.64% |
rune_regen_frost | None | 1830.95 | 51.09 | 0.03 | 0.67 | 1.29%[/TABLE]

I'm wasting 0.94 unholy runes, 1.37 blood (death as frost) runes, 0.67 frost runes. Check that table as you modify the priority to see what's going on.

As for (Blood=>1.8|Frost>=1.8|Unholy>=1.8), it doesn't work that way. You probably want (Blood=1&Blood.cooldown_remains<=2)|(Frost...)|...

#23 Mendenbarr

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:08 AM

simc will tell you if you're wasting runes in the resources section of the report. Example:

[TABLE]Resource Gains | Type | Count | Total | Average | Overflow |
rune_regen_all | None | 5529.23 | 152.27 | 0.03 | 2.97 | 1.92% |
rune_regen_unholy | None | 1841.79 | 50.80 | 0.03 | 0.94 | 1.81% |
rune_regen_blood | None | 1856.48 | 50.38 | 0.03 | 1.37 | 2.64% |
rune_regen_frost | None | 1830.95 | 51.09 | 0.03 | 0.67 | 1.29%[/TABLE]

I'm wasting 0.94 unholy runes, 1.37 blood (death as frost) runes, 0.67 frost runes. Check that table as you modify the priority to see what's going on.

As for (Blood=>1.8|Frost>=1.8|Unholy>=1.8), it doesn't work that way. You probably want (Blood=1&Blood.cooldown_remains<=2)|(Frost...)|...


Thanks for the help! Looking at the overflow is helping me to nail down more of where the lost damage is going, and most, if not all, seems to be going to runes. Despite having 60 seconds of free GCDs through the sim, I can't convince it to spend runic below 40 for the entire run, which I'm convinced is helping to lead to the over-capping, not having GCDs when you need them.
However, the line
actions+=/obliterate,if=(Blood=1&Blood.cooldown_remains<=2|Frost=1&Frost.cooldown_remains<=2|Unholy=1&Unholy.cooldown_remains<=2)
produces the same results as the line
actions+=/obliterate,if=(Blood=1|Frost=1|Unholy=1), so I'm not convinced that's the correct way to tell them sim to spend runes at 90% capped. Still looking for ideas about fixing the overflow problem, because I've optimized the sim to 16% extra crit rate on obliterates, which is amazing, if we can fix overflow.

Here is my most accurate sim at this time:

Spoiler


It has a 57% crit rate on obliterate, and a 22% crit rate on frost strike, but wastes 8.5% of runic from obliterates and 6% overall rune regen (11% from blood runes), however it doesn't waste RE procs at all!
I'll keep mulling over it, but help would be appreciated.

#24 bighandxyz

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 03:14 PM

I have notice a significant dps gain by always saving 1 pair of runes, and using them exactly right when swing timer would have proc killing machine. After enough practice if KM have proc, it would consume KM otherwise it would continue and nothing else would change.

In between I weaves in frost strikes and oblit to make sure not cap on any of the resources, and I agree with you logically speaking there should be not dps loss assuming that you don't have crazy amount of haste (like during BL) so that you don't cap runes. You should have many available gcd that delaying 2x runes would not be dps loss at all as you will be able to spend them and "lost resources" after swing timer pass

I have tried to sim this kind of behavior, without any luck. Just going to have to accept its the limitation of the software. Its a priority based simulator that you can't sim for when this new rotation is no longer priority based in the traditional sense

#25 kend7510

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:35 PM

This isn't exactly a priority question but related to the topic at hand with regards to oblit around KM procs:

Why is it that everywhere I read people say Runic Empowerment is the best for Frost, rather than Blood Tap?

Blood Tap removes a layer of RNG, and you can easily oblit right after a KM proc without having to wait. It also eliminates the problem that sometimes (albeit rarely) RE will leave with 2 unholy runes and no death runes for a few seconds (by proccing a depleted U while the other U is almost ready).

I realize with BT, each FS is mathematically equivalent to 40% of a rune while RE has a 45% per-FS chance of proccing a rune. But BT is in your control while RE is not. With Frost DPS relatively dependent on procs, wouldn't BT be a much better choice than RE? (Sort of like on use trinkets better than proc trinkets, even if theoretical max uptime is smaller)

#26 Mendenbarr

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 06:08 AM

This isn't exactly a priority question but related to the topic at hand with regards to oblit around KM procs:

Why is it that everywhere I read people say Runic Empowerment is the best for Frost, rather than Blood Tap?

Blood Tap removes a layer of RNG, and you can easily oblit right after a KM proc without having to wait. It also eliminates the problem that sometimes (albeit rarely) RE will leave with 2 unholy runes and no death runes for a few seconds (by proccing a depleted U while the other U is almost ready).

I realize with BT, each FS is mathematically equivalent to 40% of a rune while RE has a 45% per-FS chance of proccing a rune. But BT is in your control while RE is not. With Frost DPS relatively dependent on procs, wouldn't BT be a much better choice than RE? (Sort of like on use trinkets better than proc trinkets, even if theoretical max uptime is smaller)



As you said, it's 40% of a rune vs. 45% of a rune, so the control you get from BT has to be able to worth that 5% of a rune every single frost strike. Why do most people say that RE is better? The sim says it is. Pure and simple, simcraft compares both and says that you get more damage from RE than BT. Now, this cleary does not mean it is actually better, but it is a leg to stand on.

Let's look at the facts:

Benefits from RE:
12.5% more runes than BT

Benefits from BT:
Allows you to obliterate with KM procced without waiting.
Allows you to FS even with all runes at 1
Makes it less likely to have 2 unholy and no frost, or vice versa.
Gives you more runes during burst phases and times with lots of procs up.

Sadly, it's very very difficult to use math in this situation, as the value of blood tap is hard to numerically determine.
I'll look into improving the sim for blood tap's use, but it's mostly personal preference, as any existing difference between the two is very small.

#27 Xemnosyst

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:44 PM

I'll look into improving the sim for blood tap's use, but it's mostly personal preference, as any existing difference between the two is very small.


Feel free to use my action list as a starting point. There are many differences between it and the default, each tested to show an improvement (after adjusting the default to always use .react with KM). Specifically for Blood Tap, it keeps Blood Charge stacks as high as possible without overflowing, then uses them to capitalize on KM procs and Soul Reaper. With the default BiS profile's gear, sims show (50k iterations each):

116,259 dps w/ BT (64.6% KM on OB, 28.2 sec waiting, 66 Blood Taps)
116,136 dps w/ RE (46.2% KM on OB, 25.9 sec waiting, 76.8 Runic Empowerments)
113,183 dps w/ RC (47.2% KM on OB, 38.5 sec waiting)

Spoiler


Edit: Also spending BT on Soul Reaper is a benefit. I updated everything above accordingly.

#28 Piledriver

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:07 PM

I don't mean to sidetrack the conversation, but on the topic of wasting resources, I wanted to get some various opinions on using Soul Reaper at 35%.

Without KM, Soul Reaper hits harder than OB, so (and perhaps I could factor in the "swing timing" Dossou talked about) I should hit SR and waste a potential KM OB (which I may spend on an FS depending on Runes and RP that I have).

I am loathe to do this (and indeed I sometimes skip out on SR in favor of waiting) but the theory tells me that I shouldn't waste a SR because of the potential to hit harder and hope for a T5 proc on a FS and then get a KM for OB. I have hit SR many times then got a KM proc with no D or F rune to use and no proc on RE.

If we truly should maximize OB crits, perhaps it's better to ignore SR unless I necessarily have an extra F or D rune up (so FU and D or some combination of that) as well as enough to OB immediately after with a KM.

EDIT: I have not done any raiding thus far on my Death Knight and am woefully undergeared. Perhaps with an increase in gear, SR does outperform a KM Ob even without a crit on the SR (as well as being able to get in more SRs than I have thus far on heroic bosses versus raid bosses; however on Sha last night, I was doing considerably less damage with SRs than with OBs but I waited on OBs so perhaps I had a net loss I am not sure).

#29 Mendenbarr

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:44 PM

I don't mean to sidetrack the conversation, but on the topic of wasting resources, I wanted to get some various opinions on using Soul Reaper at 35%.

Without KM, Soul Reaper hits harder than OB, so (and perhaps I could factor in the "swing timing" Dossou talked about) I should hit SR and waste a potential KM OB (which I may spend on an FS depending on Runes and RP that I have).

I am loathe to do this (and indeed I sometimes skip out on SR in favor of waiting) but the theory tells me that I shouldn't waste a SR because of the potential to hit harder and hope for a T5 proc on a FS and then get a KM for OB. I have hit SR many times then got a KM proc with no D or F rune to use and no proc on RE.

If we truly should maximize OB crits, perhaps it's better to ignore SR unless I necessarily have an extra F or D rune up (so FU and D or some combination of that) as well as enough to OB immediately after with a KM.

EDIT: I have not done any raiding thus far on my Death Knight and am woefully undergeared. Perhaps with an increase in gear, SR does outperform a KM Ob even without a crit on the SR (as well as being able to get in more SRs than I have thus far on heroic bosses versus raid bosses; however on Sha last night, I was doing considerably less damage with SRs than with OBs but I waited on OBs so perhaps I had a net loss I am not sure).


Every-time you use a KM proc on an FS instead of a oblit, at my gear level at least, you waste around 50k dmg. SR hits for, what, 100k? So every second you wait on a SR, you lose (SRdmg/6)*1.(crit%), or (100/6)*1.15 for me. That's 20k dmg. This napkin math is not perfect, but illustrates that using a KM proc on oblit instead of SR is a gain, if it doesn't delay the SR by more than 2 seconds. However, you are far less likey to be GCD capped in the execute range than you are at the start of the fight, and so heres what I do:

Spam SR every 6 seconds. If a KM procs, or runes are about to cap, hit obliterate. Otherwise, tap away at FS. 95% of the time, you can hold onto 1-3 runes for SR, and have another 2 runes for km oblit ready to go, or ready to go soon. If km procs, and you've been doing well on FSs, you have low enough runic that you can afford to wait on the oblit, hit SR, and get both the km oblit and the SR, after your runes regen enough to oblit.

#30 Mendenbarr

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:44 PM

I'm attempting to restart the discussion in this thread, and would appreciate any feedback to anything in it.

In regards to the waiting vesus not waiting argument, I'm seeing solid arguments for both sides at the moment, and am no longer convinced it's a definitive gain, especially considering the lack of free GCDs for 2hand frost. My BiS default sim profile currently has 2hand waiting 5.7% of the time, and DW waiting 3.8% of the time, which makes it much harder to justify waiting. I'll continue doing research, and hopefully getting feedback, and write an updated section when I have enough information on the subject.

As for the rest of the thread, I'm happy with it in it's current state, but please keep in mind that most of the tips and tactics have a very small testing pool giving me any data on the validity of said ideas. If you find any particular idea to be helpful, or hurtful, to your personal performance, that feedback will greatly help me evaluate the value of keeping the section in this thread.

I intend to maintain this thread as long as I continue to frost, and as long as the information is useful to the community.


Some threads which have been picking up the discussion on other sites about the same topic ~

MMOchamp thread provided by Jessamy
Euliat's post and a discussion on battle.net
Euliat's source code for an alternative sim that incorporates waiting
Euliat's conclusion for GCD usage numbers



Also, while this isn't the perfect place for it, I'm wondering if anyone is considering the admittedly way to early to tell changes to unholy on the patch notes for 5.2

Unholy
Reaping now also applies to Icy Touch. (useless single target, with PS change, pretty much useless unless you want to force a frost into death and you're out of melee range)
Summon Gargoyle no longer costs Runic Power. (saves 60 runic every 3 minutes, 60 runic is worth about 2 death coils, or about 122k, plus the "free" rune from RE/BT/RC, which is worth about 74k, or 200k total/180 seconds is 1.1k dps, also makes bursting easier, no need t bank runic)
Gargoyle Strike now deals Shadow and Nature damage (was Nature only)(now benefits from mastery, I'm assuming, the BiS unholy sim has 47% mastery, and increasing gargoyles 575k to 862k, a 287k bonus every 3 minutes, which is great burst, and also 1.6k dps.)
Ebon Plaguebringer now causes Plague Strike to inflict Frost Fever, in addition to its other effects. (nice for target swaps, useless single target as FeS/outbreak should keep up diseases fine, maybe makes PL/PS worth using once per minute?)

Sims have unholy about 8k behind, single target BiS, atm, with these changes, I see unholy being 2.7k up, but still about 4-5k behind frost.

#31 MagdalenaDK

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 05:22 PM

Here is Euliat's latest post on the issue of Killing Machine, 2h Frost and waiting: [2H PvE Frost] Killing Machine: Do you feel lucky?

I sincerely hope this ends the debate. He's essentially replicated the same math that he used in during the MoP beta, which lead him to his initial assertion then. Nothing has really changed since, and I have yet to see anyone satisfactorily challenge the conclusions he has drawn.

For those with little patience, I'll simply quote the conclusion he draws after his testing:

I would recommend that you do not stall to allow for more KM-OB’s. You are better off ignoring it.



#32 Mendenbarr

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 09:50 AM

Here is an exert from the OP.

There are three ways to get rid of unholy runes, let's see which is the best.
Death and decay: 48.2k dmg
Plague strike: 23.2k dmg + 100k (full duration disease, 10k per 3 seconds)
Obliterate: 78.1k dmg +45% chance for free HB = 113.2k dmg
HB: 78.0k dmg

Obviously your best bet is double HBs whenever possible, but let's say you have 1 unholy and 1 frost/death, what should you do?
In order from best to worst:

  • Using plague strike and HB gives 201.2k dmg IF diseases are about to fall off
  • Using plague leech, plague strike and 2 howling blasts gives 179.2k dmg
  • Using DnD and HB gives 126.2k dmg
  • Using obliterate gives 113.2k dmg
  • Using plague strike and HB gives 101.2k dmg
  • Ignoring the unholy rune and just spending the frost/death on HB gives 78k dmg

While it's true you can use plague strike and howling blast at half disease duration and count the 50% refresh as 50k dmg, it prolongs the ability to fully refresh diseases via the top option for 15 seconds, and is therefore not a damage gain. If blood plague is not just about to fall off, count it as if it isn't refreshing at all.

So, if diseases are about to fall off, plauge leech is off cd, or dnd is off cd, use the above options to remove unholy runes, otherwise just use obliterate if you have to.



However, I've noticed that simcraft has DnD very low for DW, and as such, I played around with it a bit and tried moving DnD up, which led to a slight overcapping which removed all the benefit. GCDs strike again. As such, I've come to the following conclusion, and updated the OP.

Note: Due to DW's current state of being close to GCD locked most of the time, we need to reexamine the way to deal with unholy runes. While the above-mentioned list is accurate in terms of numbers, obliterate is more complicated than it seems. Obliterate has two possibilities, it either does 78.1k in one GCD, or 156.1k dmg in 2 GCDs. While we can average this out easily, as done above, the GCD cost has to be considered. Using DnD/HB does slightly more than obliterate on average, but costs 2 GCDs. Using obliterate over DnD is a gain if you are GCD capped. Depending on luck, you'll either gain free damage with the rime proc, or gain a GCD which will avoid overflowing resources which will be a damage gain. If you are not GCD capped, DnD/HB wins out.



#33 Imodorox

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 04:23 AM

"Glyph of pestilence allows your diseases, when spread from the boss, to hit all 6 orbs during p2."

dont work anymore

#34 Chantuk

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 05:35 PM

dont work anymore



Check your positioning and timing when you hit Pest, it does work

#35 BreitlingDK

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:50 PM

I tried this last night and can confirm that it still does work exactly as it always has.

#36 Mendenbarr

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:56 PM

Updated the OP with some DW weapons, if you're curious about a weapon combo not listed PM me and I'll add it to the list. Also relocating simcraft profiles used here as it takes AGES to scroll through all of it when I'm editing the OP
>..<


And pestilence still works on elegon!



Profile and details for trinkets:
Spoiler




Profile and details for upgrades:

Spoiler




Profile for weapons:
Edit: forgot to put correct enchants on double normal kil'rak profile, that's been fixed, and added 2 weapon combos by request.


Spoiler


#37 Mendenbarr

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:46 AM

By request, adding weapon ranking for 2hand as well. Profile is below, here are details:

Ran both viable raiding weapons, normal and heroic versions, with every possible upgrade level. All sims are 50k iterations, using the default gearset and talents, being PL and RE, and are orcs with ench and engineering. Left the Shin'ka profile mostly alone, added both the legendary gem and a 160 strength gem in the prismatic socket. For Starshatter, the expertise had the potential to mess with the numbers, so I hard set the expertise to 2540, 200 higher than it would of been without a weapon, and converted all but 200 of the expertise on the weapon into haste. This yields accurate results, assuming you can find room in your gearset to reforge away the excess expertise you would gain by using starshatter, and turn it onto haste.

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#38 IceShot22

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:34 AM

So during my downtime, when I dont have runes for obliterate, but do have a single rune. I.e. One unholy, one frost, or one death rune, what do I use them on?

Also, I cant find a good rune addon that seems to work with 5.1, anyone have an addon they would recommend.

#39 CausalXXLinkXx

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:25 AM

So during my downtime, when I dont have runes for obliterate, but do have a single rune. I.e. One unholy, one frost, or one death rune, what do I use them on?

Also, I cant find a good rune addon that seems to work with 5.1, anyone have an addon they would recommend.


Use Acherus, it's by far the best one out there. It's not confusing to set up for someone who isn't UI Savvy, and it does what you want it to do, shows Runes, shows how many seconds they have left, spin when they are back up, and tracks Runic Power.

#40 Mendenbarr

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 05:43 AM

Set bonus evaluation:
This numbers apply to DW frost only, and only single target.


Dk T14:
2 set: Your Obliterate, Frost Strike, and Scourge Strike deal 10% increased damage.
Value: 4.77% dps increase
Note: Being nerfed to 4% in 5.2.
New Value: 1.91% dps increase
More notes: Single target only. Value calculated by taking the percent of DW's single target damage (with no set bonus) that is FS and oblit, and multiplying by the increase.


4 set: Your Pillar of Frost ability grants 5% additional Strength, and your Unholy Frenzy ability grants 10% additional haste.
Value: 1.17% dps increase
Notes: 3.51% increase when pillar (20 sec duration 60 sec cd) is up. Value calculated by Comparing a 50k single target sim with and without 4set.



Dk T15:
2 set: Your attacks have a chance to raise the spirit of a fallen Zandalari as your Death Knight minion for 15 sec.
Value: 3.3% dps increase
Notes: Single target only, but apeares to proc more often during aoe despite using RPPM system. More testing needed. Value calculated by Hitting a training dummy for 20 minutes on the PTR, and comparing spirits damage to the damage that would of been done with no set bonus.



4 set: Your Soul Reaper ability now deals additional Shadow Damage to targets below 45% instead of below 35%. Additionally, Killing Machine now also increases the critical strike chance of Soul Reaper.
Value: 2% dps increase
Notes: Single target only. Value given by Euliat, from his own sim.




Conclusion:
Going from 4 set t14 to double 2sets, after 5.2 hits, is a net 2.1% gain, ignoring the extra stats.
Going from double 2sets to 4 set t15 is a basically net gain, and a net loss, of 0%, ignoring the extra stats.




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