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MoP Fire Mage Compendium 5.1 - Pyros'R'Us


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#21 dirby

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:10 PM

I am unsure if it matters or not. But when using Invocation, is it better to cast Evo right when the buff expires or when there are 5 seconds (roughly the evo channel time) left on it? Is it a DPS loss to cast Evo when you have 15 seconds left on the buff but there is 4-6 seconds of downtime? Would it matter using a global to recast a bomb, cast IB (with HU) or cast a Pyro! make a considerable difference before casting Evo?

These may sound like convoluted questions but any insight would be great.

#22 Korvinas

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 03:00 AM

Int would have to be worth twice as much as the secondary stat for gemming pure Int to be better.


I have been curious about this and I did a few quick calculations based on my own stat weights

brilliant - (160*1.1)*3.83 = 674.08
potent - ((80*1.1)*3.83) + ((160)*1.97) = 652.24
smooth - (320)*1.97 = 630.4

Which means that gemming potent gems to get a socket bonus will be nearly always worth it and other than that gem pure int.

The only thing that may invalidate this is if simcraft accounts for the 1.1 multiplier in its stat weights.

#23 semata

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 09:08 AM

The rotation section advices using Incanter's Ward and Evocation "whenever off CD", which seems incorrect to me.

Depending on the encounter, casting Incanter's Ward on CD would be a significant DPS loss. IW's passive damage bonus is inactive while it is on cooldown. Therefore, unless you can reliably expect non-trivial damage at some point in the next 8 seconds, casting IW will pointlessly reduce your damage by 6% for the next 25 seconds. So perhaps instead of advising casting on CD, the rotation should say to cast IW either when expecting incoming raid damage, or when there is fire nearby that can be ran into, within the next 8 seconds.

Similarly, Evocation should not be used on CD, but instead whenever the damage buff has expired. Evocation with the Invocation talent has only a 10 second CD while the damage buff lasts for 40 seconds, so casting on CD is significantly suboptimal.

There may be an exception to this if preparing for a critical burn phase that will last longer than what you have left on the Invocation buff. For instance, when killing the sparks on Elegon, it might be worthwhile to evocate before during the phase change (or, in the lull between the first and second waves). Having the 25% damage bonus is a significant boost for killing all waves.

To dirby above, hopefully this also answered your question.

#24 Ushikawa

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 03:33 PM

Glyph of Mirror Image is now a DPS increase for Fire Mages. It still does not allow the mirror images to cast Fire Blast, but the extra damage from Fireball makes up for it.

Simcraft results of 50,000 iterations over a 600 second fight using nothing but Mirror Image

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#25 stýx

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:23 PM

your statement about using !pyro if HS+HU is active, should be more clear.

Assuming HS+HU. You should continue with one more Fb, and not use !pyro immediately, because of the way 0.5s cancel delay on HU works. As well as the 0.75s max travel time on some of our spells.

Fb->!pyro, even if Fb fails to crit but the !pyro does crit you get another HS, because the !pyro lands within the 0.5s cancel delay of Fb. If you would just use !pyro without the Fb first, you would only roll the dice once instead of twice so to say.
If both of them crit you get !pyro+Hu. Repeat Fb->!pyro.

On another note; Activating AT prematurely results in less than the +6s to basically all trinkets pots and hero at pull, and should be taken into consideration, when choosing PoM for AT->!pyro->PoM-pyro->AT->!pyro->PoM-pyro, thus resulting in only a ~3s gain to pot/trinkets/hero.

Here is the Alter Time + Combustion method I was talking about earlier if you want to add it:

*You have Pyro! proc*
>Pop PoM
>Pop AT
>Pyro! + Instant cast Pyroblast from PoM
>Deactivate AT
>Pyro! + Instant cast Pryoblast from PoM
>Combustion

It should also be worth noting that if you gain a HU proc over the course of this spell chain, you should turn it into a Pyro! with IB and fire it off.


IB decrease your ignite significantly if you already have 2+ pyro's in the pool, so i would not advise this when building ignite for combustion.


Edited for clarification as it seems people were mixing up my points about Fb->!pyro and my point about IB.

#26 Doroteasenjk

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 08:05 PM

when using Invocation, is it better to cast Evo right when the buff expires or when there are 5 seconds (roughly the evo channel time) left on it?

When you are evocating, you are doing no DPS (except for DoTs). Evocating sooner increases your downtime. If you wait for your buff to drop off, you will be evocating at a time when you aren't doing significant DPS, so your lack of buff lines up with lack of DPS.

So, wait.

#27 Omnia

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:04 PM

If you wait for your buff to drop off, you will be evocating at a time when you aren't doing significant DPS, so your lack of buff lines up with lack of DPS.


You may want to refresh 2 seconds before Invocation fades, to avoid having the last FB or Pyro cast right after the buff fades. Of course if FB/Pyro damage is calculated at cast instead of land time (is it?), then that's less of an issue.

#28 ironcurtain

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 04:50 PM

I have been curious about this and I did a few quick calculations based on my own stat weights

brilliant - (160*1.1)*3.83 = 674.08
potent - ((80*1.1)*3.83) + ((160)*1.97) = 652.24
smooth - (320)*1.97 = 630.4

Which means that gemming potent gems to get a socket bonus will be nearly always worth it and other than that gem pure int.

The only thing that may invalidate this is if simcraft accounts for the 1.1 multiplier in its stat weights.

Which it does afaik.

#29 Korvinas

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 11:49 PM

You may want to refresh 2 seconds before Invocation fades, to avoid having the last FB or Pyro cast right after the buff fades. Of course if FB/Pyro damage is calculated at cast instead of land time (is it?), then that's less of an issue.


They are calculated at cast as most spells are.

#30 Calicia

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:09 PM

Glyph of Mirror Image is now a DPS increase for Fire Mages. It still does not allow the mirror images to cast Fire Blast, but the extra damage from Fireball makes up for it.


Thanks. Added to glyphs section.


I believe a better test would be Fireball if Pyro dot is up and scorch to fish when it isn't--though I doubt scorch will beat fireball under any real circumstances.

Edit: I ran Simcraft under all 3 circumstances with results: PoM=79k, Scorch=69k, Scorch if no Pyro=77k. Scorch if no pyro and Fireball with PoM sim pretty close.


Thanks. Amended rotation to list Scorch to HU fish only when there's no Pyro DoT.


The rotation section advices using Incanter's Ward and Evocation "whenever off CD", which seems incorrect to me.

Depending on the encounter, casting Incanter's Ward on CD would be a significant DPS loss. IW's passive damage bonus is inactive while it is on cooldown. Therefore, unless you can reliably expect non-trivial damage at some point in the next 8 seconds, casting IW will pointlessly reduce your damage by 6% for the next 25 seconds. So perhaps instead of advising casting on CD, the rotation should say to cast IW either when expecting incoming raid damage, or when there is fire nearby that can be ran into, within the next 8 seconds.

Similarly, Evocation should not be used on CD, but instead whenever the damage buff has expired. Evocation with the Invocation talent has only a 10 second CD while the damage buff lasts for 40 seconds, so casting on CD is significantly suboptimal.


Good points. Amended rotation advice to take them into account.

I think most boss encounters at the moment allow for IW to get the damage required to be useful, either through raid-wide damage or through doing something like running into an amethyst pool or the like, so using it on CD right now is viable for bosses, though not necessarily for trash. I haven't seen any of the Heart of Fear or Terrace stuff yet, though, so don't know if it would be viable in there.


To add some clarification on the ignite for combustion build up, and your statement about only using !pyro if HU is procced.

assuming !pyro+Hu. you should proc your !pyro with IB and continue to fireball till you have these conditions.

Always start with a fireball. because of the 0.5s cancel delay on HU. If you Fb->!pyro Even if only the !pyro crit you get another !pyro, since the first !pyro lands within the 0.5s cancel delay. if Both crits you get !pyro+Hu and can get lucky and get another !pyro.
This is another reason i find PoM to be overvalued, as i normally have little problems getting 2-4+ pyros into my AT combination. and even without AT its not uncommon to get 2-3+ pyro's
Also activating AT prematurely results in less than the +6s to basicly all trinkets pots and hero at pull, and should be taken into consideration.
I have also seen people suggest using IB if you get a Hu during this chain, and normally it would be 2-3 pyro in to the chain that it is suggested, i find this somewhat stupid as IB lowers your ignite by a large amount, assuming you have 2-3 pyro's in your ignite pool, you might as well combust at this point or take your chances of a higher ignite after AT reset.


I'm assuming you're referring to this part?:

[*] (Pyro only if Pyro! and HU have both procced)


I'm not suggesting Pyro only ever is cast if you have a Pyro! + HU combo, only that casting Pyro becomes higher on the priority list if both are procced in order to take advantage of both, rather than risk losing the Pyro!

I'm also not completely clear on what you're suggesting with Pyro! + HU. If you have both, you shouldn't cast IB until you've cast Pyro, otherwise the Pyro! proc from HU + IB will overwrite the existing Pyro! proc. If you go Pyro - IB - Pyro on a Pyro! + HU combo, then I don't see where the 0.5 sec delay comes into it, unless the second Pyro crits and gives another HU. At which point there's not much you can do except FB (or Scorch) and hope for a second crit from there before HU drops off, since IB is on CD (unless Combustion is off CD and you can use it to reset IB).

I've noted about using AT with approx. 6 sec left on buffs, thanks :)

#31 stýx

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:35 PM

I'm not suggesting Pyro only ever is cast if you have a Pyro! + HU combo, only that casting Pyro becomes higher on the priority list if both are procced in order to take advantage of both, rather than risk losing the Pyro!

I'm also not completely clear on what you're suggesting with Pyro! + HU. If you have both, you shouldn't cast IB until you've cast Pyro, otherwise the Pyro! proc from HU + IB will overwrite the existing Pyro! proc. If you go Pyro - IB - Pyro on a Pyro! + HU combo, then I don't see where the 0.5 sec delay comes into it, unless the second Pyro crits and gives another HU. At which point there's not much you can do except FB (or Scorch) and hope for a second crit from there before HU drops off, since IB is on CD (unless Combustion is off CD and you can use it to reset IB).

I've noted about using AT with approx. 6 sec left on buffs, thanks :)


I am saying Pyro should only be cast with HS+HU->Fb->!pyro. This will never overwrite a HS. It will generate a higher chance of another HS, compared to just HS+HU->!pyro.

Edit: I have cleared up my first post i hope it will bring some clarification to my point, sorry for the confusion.

#32 Verndroid

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 10:09 AM

Love your work on this thread. :-)

Notes:
You list Glyph of mirror images under Major Glyphs but it is a Minor Glyph.

Clarification:

8. Fireball (or glyphed FFB) if Pyro DoT is on target, Scorch if it isn't (and you have the talent)

I am a little confused about scorch. Might be the wording or just me not knowing "something". I assume you recommend casting scorch to proc an ignite DoT but the way it is worded it sounds like you are referring to a Pyro DoT ?

#33 Calicia

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 10:38 AM

Love your work on this thread. :-)

Notes:
You list Glyph of mirror images under Major Glyphs but it is a Minor Glyph.

Clarification:

I am a little confused about scorch. Might be the wording or just me not knowing "something". I assume you recommend casting scorch to proc an ignite DoT but the way it is worded it sounds like you are referring to a Pyro DoT ?


Ack, you are correct, that's what I get for making edits at the end of an 18 hour day :)

I am referring to a Pyro DoT - using Scorch's faster cast time to 'fish' for a crit to get HU to proc so you can get a Pryo out asap, then switching to FB as the main filler once the Pyro DoT is up.

#34 Ayö

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 12:26 AM

Thanks. Added to glyphs section.

I'm also not completely clear on what you're suggesting with Pyro! + HU. If you have both, you shouldn't cast IB until you've cast Pyro, otherwise the Pyro! proc from HU + IB will overwrite the existing Pyro! proc. If you go Pyro - IB - Pyro on a Pyro! + HU combo, then I don't see where the 0.5 sec delay comes into it, unless the second Pyro crits and gives another HU. At which point there's not much you can do except FB (or Scorch) and hope for a second crit from there before HU drops off, since IB is on CD (unless Combustion is off CD and you can use it to reset IB).


Indeed overwrite an existing Pyro! is a mistake.
You can't use Combustion in order to reset IB to get a Pyro! from your HU. COmbustion direct damages will effect the HU proc after your combo and waste it or make it a Pyro!.

I think our rotation is led by COmbustion CD.
When it's avalaible, for each HU proc with IB on CD, you may cast FB, to make a bigger ignit. (the more with 5.1, and the combustion ignoring pyro dot)
When it's on CD,the goal is to get Pyro! procs, we may cast the better ( %crit/sec incant ) spell, and that's scorch

#35 Gaws

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 10:44 AM

Living Bomb's explosion occurs when you let it drop off or if you refresh it when it has under 2 seconds left.
Didn't believe the author in THIS guide, but after trying it in raid and on target dummies, I can confirm it does work that way.
I don't know if it was common knowledge, but I was under the impression the explosion happened only if you would let it drop off.

#36 Iroared

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 07:04 PM

Reading through this I noticed one (to my knowledge) inaccuracy:

Also note that if you have Windsong on your weapon and are using Invocation pre-pull, it's a good idea to unequip your weapon before casting your Evocation, then reequip it as you pull, to prevent a Windsong proc from being wasted.

Windsong has no cooldown, so if it does proc from evocation, you lose nothing. There might be a minor merit in doing that due to how windsong (and other RPPM procs) chance now depends on the time from last spell cast (up to 10 seconds), which makes your first spell have a higher chance of activating it, but I suspect this timer might reset when you re-equip the weapon (quite tricky to test, actually). Also, because of this mechanic, it should be benefitial to pop haste cooldowns (e.g. bloodlust) before your first spell lands, to further increase the chance of getting your proc off the bat (this also applies to Jade Spirit).

#37 Pyryte

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 08:45 PM

Reading through this I noticed one (to my knowledge) inaccuracy:

Windsong has no cooldown, so if it does proc from evocation, you lose nothing. There might be a minor merit in doing that due to how windsong (and other RPPM procs) chance now depends on the time from last spell cast (up to 10 seconds), which makes your first spell have a higher chance of activating it, but I suspect this timer might reset when you re-equip the weapon (quite tricky to test, actually). Also, because of this mechanic, it should be benefitial to pop haste cooldowns (e.g. bloodlust) before your first spell lands, to further increase the chance of getting your proc off the bat (this also applies to Jade Spirit).


I've tested this on live and almost everytime I use Evocation pre-pull with my weapon equipped it procs windsong and the duration runs out before I can get optimal usage out of it for my first Combustion. I've had great success proc wise equipping my weapon post-Evo. I've yet to have a single pull using this method without windsong proc'd during my first combustion. I can't say with 100% certainty that the timer doesn't reset, but as I've stated, I've yet to have a pull without it proccing almost immediately.

I wouldn't go as far as popping bloodlust before my first spell lands, but if you have an on-use haste trinket or something to that effect, I would agree that popping that right before your first spell lands would be optimal, in the same way you pre-pot and pop all your other on-use trinkets etc right before your first spell lands.

It ultimately comes down to having nothing to lose by unequipping your weapon and requipping it after Evo, but gaining a chance to have better timing on procs at the beginning of the fight so you might as well do it. :)

(inb4 1% wipe because someone forgot to re-equip their weapon)

#38 Spacedonkey

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 10:22 PM

Living Bomb's explosion occurs when you let it drop off or if u refresh it when it has under 2 seconds left.
Didn't believe the author in THIS guide, but after trying it in raid and on target dummies, I can confirm it does work that way.
I don't know if it was common knowledge, but I was under the impression the explosion happened only if you would let it drop off.

You can actually push it to anything under 3s and it will still explode.

#39 ShatteredHallsFeraz

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:06 PM

It ultimately comes down to having nothing to lose by unequipping your weapon and requipping it after Evo, but gaining a chance to have better timing on procs at the beginning of the fight so you might as well do it. :)


Easy way to automate the swap:

1. Set up two equipment sets, one with no weapon and one with your windsong weapon.
2. Macro set swaps into your abilities.

#showtooltip Evocation
/equipset FireNoWeapon
/cast Evocation

#showtooltip Mage Bomb
/equipset FireWeapon
/cast [nochanneling] Mage Bomb

Repeat for other abilities. Given no ICD, no downside to this approach I can see.

#40 maxi

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:07 AM

Regarding refreshing the Living Bomb 3 seconds earlier.

First of all, i can confirm that the explosion does occur if you recast living bomb the instant the tooltip goes from "3 seconds remaining" to "2 seconds remaining".

Whether it is beneficial to do so or not, is not so obvious.
Living bomb lasts 12 seconds, with a single explosion at the end of the duration.
If you recast living bomb every 10 seconds, you get more frequent explosions, but you do not get more ticks.

More to the point, anyone who maintains 100% bomb uptime over a period of 60 seconds will get the same amount of ticks, regardless of how many bombs he casts. Casting a bomb every 10 seconds as opposed to every 12 seconds increases the amount of explosions per minute by 1, but sacrifices a second's worth of casting time, reducing the amount of time a player has to dedicate to main rotation from 55 seconds per minute to 54 (in perfect latency conditions).

Is the additional explosion per minute worth losing a second from every 55 seconds of main rotation? Tough call.




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