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MoP Fire Mage Compendium 5.1 - Pyros'R'Us


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#41 ingix

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:21 AM

regarding the rotation: are you saying the best possible rotation atm is to cast pyro! only when you have HS and HU up? but waiting till the last second to pyro! in case the HU doesn't proc? or am i getting it wrong? i tried it on the dummy and most of the times after the HS procced, sometimed it could expire if i was waiting for a new HU proc

#42 Calicia

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 04:25 AM

regarding the rotation: are you saying the best possible rotation atm is to cast pyro! only when you have HS and HU up? but waiting till the last second to pyro! in case the HU doesn't proc? or am i getting it wrong? i tried it on the dummy and most of the times after the HS procced, sometimed it could expire if i was waiting for a new HU proc


No, I'm saying that casting Pyro moves up the priority order when both Pyro! and HU have procced. I put it in brackets to indicate that this was a conditional step, but I'll try to find a clearer way of putting it.

#43 Pyryte

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:56 PM

Easy way to automate the swap:

1. Set up two equipment sets, one with no weapon and one with your windsong weapon.
2. Macro set swaps into your abilities.

#showtooltip Evocation
/equipset FireNoWeapon
/cast Evocation

#showtooltip Mage Bomb
/equipset FireWeapon
/cast [nochanneling] Mage Bomb

Repeat for other abilities. Given no ICD, no downside to this approach I can see.


I use this exact macro except I add in a line before the /cast to use my potion and pop my resin trinket. You're correct though, it works like a charm.

#44 Pyryte

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:57 PM

I'm sure many of you are either working on Garalon or were, and certainly will be on Heroic. Regarding spreading Combustion, I've seen a few mages say they can spread it from body to legs, but on our attempts the other night that didn't work a single time for me. I even tried to line it up with an animation in which the legs seemed closer to the body.

You can spread from legs to body for sure, but can anyone actually verify if you can spread from body to legs? Thanks.

#45 nathanbp

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 03:30 PM

It worked for me last night:
[20:47:33.437] Garalon afflicted by Combustion from Nathanbp
[20:47:33.649] Nathanbp casts Inferno Blast on Garalon
[20:47:33.839] Nathanbp Inferno Blast Garalon *43002*
[20:47:34.262] Garalon's Leg afflicted by Combustion from Nathanbp

If you have to control a robot dinosaur that fires lazers and there's a time when you shouldn't be shooting those lazers then the encounter is clearly flawed beyond hope of fixing.


#46 eswedge

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 05:00 PM

Combustion did spread seem to spread from his body to legs, but only seemed to spread to a single leg (regardless of how many were up), never consistently the same leg either.

#47 stýx

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:59 PM

For me combustion did spread from body->2legs. But only from leg->body.
What i did was using the legs bonus damage to build up a large ignite and then spread combustion from legs to body, if another leg got healed i would spread combustion from body to that leg.

#48 Creditor85

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:21 PM

i suggest dots spread out from body only to forelegs, but from any legs to body

#49 midgettoes

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 05:43 AM

Regarding refreshing the Living Bomb 3 seconds earlier.

First of all, i can confirm that the explosion does occur if you recast living bomb the instant the tooltip goes from "3 seconds remaining" to "2 seconds remaining".

Whether it is beneficial to do so or not, is not so obvious.
Living bomb lasts 12 seconds, with a single explosion at the end of the duration.
If you recast living bomb every 10 seconds, you get more frequent explosions, but you do not get more ticks.

More to the point, anyone who maintains 100% bomb uptime over a period of 60 seconds will get the same amount of ticks, regardless of how many bombs he casts. Casting a bomb every 10 seconds as opposed to every 12 seconds increases the amount of explosions per minute by 1, but sacrifices a second's worth of casting time, reducing the amount of time a player has to dedicate to main rotation from 55 seconds per minute to 54 (in perfect latency conditions).

Is the additional explosion per minute worth losing a second from every 55 seconds of main rotation? Tough call.


Assuming you have perfect latency, and you wait for living bomb to drop off before refreshing, you are most likely still going to miss .5-2 seconds (from current cast) at least, which means you WILL miss ticks. I use the 'you can detonate with 3 seconds left' as a safety net situation. Once I stop casting and my living bomb is within that range, I reapply.

As for whether it is worth it? Just look at the damage numbers. Living bomb explodes for 1395 +104.5% sp (wowhead), fireball is ~1500 (average) +150%sp. Fireball takes ~2x the cast time (at a reasonable haste level). Clearly, the LB explosion is worth more than half the fireball. The only other complication I can think of is ignite (~15% of fireball dmg over 4 sec), which LB does not proc. But even with that included, LB comes out ahead (significantly).

I would say it is ideal to refresh LB asap - and in doing so, maximise the explosions - but not at the expense of cancelling a spell cast (obviously).

#50 Zeemag

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 02:08 AM

I came across a spread sheet with the haste break points for mages. Since it's not published here yet I figured I'd share it. It says that for a non goblin, not using frost armor, with the 5% raid buff wants 3036 haste for living bomb, 3056 for nether temptest, 3056 for glyphed combustion, and 4052 for unglyhphed combustion. The link includes every other variation too.

https://docs.google....xZmFYa0E#gid=39

#51 sizenomatter

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 03:38 PM

To bring up the HS+HU debate again:

I find it better to use my pyro! procs whenever combustion is on CD. My reasoning is because if I get a HS+HU setup and I'm still casting fireball I don't have a guaranteed extra HS proc. This is because I cannot use IB to give me another HS. If I cast IB after my fireball finishes I just overwrote my HS proc. If I cast pyro! and then try to cast IB I will not be able to catch the HU proc in time due to the GCD from using pyro! Countless times I have found myself in this setup and to avoid this issue I try to use my pyro! procs as soon as they are up. The only time I don't use my pyro! procs immediately are when I know I need to start stacking ignite for Combustion.

#52 midgettoes

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 01:23 AM

To bring up the HS+HU debate again:

I find it better to use my pyro! procs whenever combustion is on CD. My reasoning is because if I get a HS+HU setup and I'm still casting fireball I don't have a guaranteed extra HS proc. This is because I cannot use IB to give me another HS. If I cast IB after my fireball finishes I just overwrote my HS proc. If I cast pyro! and then try to cast IB I will not be able to catch the HU proc in time due to the GCD from using pyro! Countless times I have found myself in this setup and to avoid this issue I try to use my pyro! procs as soon as they are up. The only time I don't use my pyro! procs immediately are when I know I need to start stacking ignite for Combustion.


When do you get into this position? Assuming you follow the rotation in the OP this shouldn't happen? You cast fireball to fill, and IB when you get HU (refreshing LB in between). The only scenario you could get HU and Pyro! at the same time is when
Fireball 1 cast
Fireball 2 cast
Fireball 1 lands (crit) - HU
Fireball 2 cast ends
Inferno blast cast (crit) - Pyro!
Fireball 2 lands (crit) - Pyro! + HU!

Obviously the next step here, as in the OP rotation, is to use Pyro! You can't use IB as it is on CD.

The only other scenario I can see this happening is as you cast combustion (as the initial damage can hit/crit, causing HU to proc Pyro! or lose HU). In this case you could feasibly get Pyro! and HU at the same time as IB is off CD (as combustion resets this CD). In this case, use Pyro and resume normal rotation (or use IB if multiple targets, and resume normal rotation - you will lose a single Pyro! proc).

Is there another situation this can occur?

#53 Dyspho

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:14 AM

Assuming you have perfect latency, and you wait for living bomb to drop off before refreshing, you are most likely still going to miss .5-2 seconds (from current cast) at least, which means you WILL miss ticks. I use the 'you can detonate with 3 seconds left' as a safety net situation. Once I stop casting and my living bomb is within that range, I reapply.

As for whether it is worth it? Just look at the damage numbers. Living bomb explodes for 1395 +104.5% sp (wowhead), fireball is ~1500 (average) +150%sp. Fireball takes ~2x the cast time (at a reasonable haste level). Clearly, the LB explosion is worth more than half the fireball. The only other complication I can think of is ignite (~15% of fireball dmg over 4 sec), which LB does not proc. But even with that included, LB comes out ahead (significantly).

I would say it is ideal to refresh LB asap - and in doing so, maximise the explosions - but not at the expense of cancelling a spell cast (obviously).


If refreshing LB asap, over the fight you'll cast less FB and more LB. however LB doesn't proc HU or HS, so refreshing LB asap will provide less pyro proc causing a small loss of dps. The gain of the LB explosion count seems not worth it.

#54 Dyspho

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:17 AM

When do you get into this position? Assuming you follow the rotation in the OP this shouldn't happen? You cast fireball to fill, and IB when you get HU (refreshing LB in between). The only scenario you could get HU and Pyro! at the same time is when
Fireball 1 cast
Fireball 2 cast
Fireball 1 lands (crit) - HU
Fireball 2 cast ends
Inferno blast cast (crit) - Pyro!
Fireball 2 lands (crit) - Pyro! + HU!

Obviously the next step here, as in the OP rotation, is to use Pyro! You can't use IB as it is on CD.

The only other scenario I can see this happening is as you cast combustion (as the initial damage can hit/crit, causing HU to proc Pyro! or lose HU). In this case you could feasibly get Pyro! and HU at the same time as IB is off CD (as combustion resets this CD). In this case, use Pyro and resume normal rotation (or use IB if multiple targets, and resume normal rotation - you will lose a single Pyro! proc).

Is there another situation this can occur?


The best next step is to cast FB + pyro ! : they will land approx at the same time so if only one of them crit your HU proc will become HS.

#55 sizenomatter

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:14 AM

Ahh, I missed the part in step 4 that said "..., then pyro"

Essentially the rotation says:

4. IB then pyro
5. pyro only if certain conditions are met.

Seems illogical because you will never get a step 5. There is also nothing in the rotation telling you to cast fireball when you have HS+HU and IB is on CD.

#56 Fex

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 05:13 PM

4. Inferno Blast when HU procs, then Pyro
5. (Pyro only if Pyro! and HU have both procced)
6. Living Bomb/Nether Tempest on or just before expiry, or Frost Bomb on CD
7. Pyro when it procs*
8. Fireball (or glyphed FFB) if Pyro DoT is on target, Scorch if it isn't (and you have the talent)


I think the "...then Pyro" in step #4 is redundant, and should be left out. There should be one step per line. The Pyro! proc you get from casting IB when HU procs is caught later in the priority list so it's not needed on line #4.

Steps #5-7 just emphasize that refreshing LB is a higher priority than casting pyroblast unless you have both Pyro! and HU, in which case you use up the Pyro! first, hit LB, now you have a chance your Pyroblast crit, to use another Pyro! proc, otherwise force it with an IB and then Pyroblast, then continue.

At least, that's how I read the list, and how I've been executing it in practice.

Edit: Removing the "then pyro" unfortunately causes the case of your current FB critting and IB (with HU up) critting, generating Pyro! + HU case, with LB about to expire, as Pyroblast first, then LB, which should be LB first, then Pyro, to ensure Pyromaniac buff does not expire as you're casting the Pyroblast. Some better language should be employed to reflect this border case. Or common sense should be used, but I may be expecting too much ...

#57 Lyan

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:32 PM

I came across a spread sheet with the haste break points for mages. Since it's not published here yet I figured I'd share it. It says that for a non goblin, not using frost armor, with the 5% raid buff wants 3036 haste for living bomb, 3056 for nether temptest, 3056 for glyphed combustion, and 4052 for unglyhphed combustion. The link includes every other variation too.

https://docs.google....xZmFYa0E#gid=39


So if I understand this correct we will be going to use unglyphed Combustion as soon as we hit 4052 haste (as nongoblins). Because that would give us 12 ticks on combustion -> 24 in the time of a glyphed combustion while glyphed combustion would just give us 23 ticks because you need 5036 haste to get this 24th tick. I have no clue on the math behind this and I don't want to question anything behind this but I think this looks kinda weird. Still, if true would be interesting.

#58 midgettoes

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:14 AM

If refreshing LB asap, over the fight you'll cast less FB and more LB. however LB doesn't proc HU or HS, so refreshing LB asap will provide less pyro proc causing a small loss of dps. The gain of the LB explosion count seems not worth it.


It isn't just the explosion you are after though. As I mentioned, use the few seconds to proc an explosion as a safety net. If you are routinely waiting for LB to finish you are going to miss a few ticks of living bomb as well as fewer explosions over the fight. You only refresh LB ASAP where you happen to have just finished a cast as the LB is able to explode if refreshed - an incredibly rare situation.

More often than not you find yourself refreshing LB with 0-2 seconds remaining I found.

LB proccing HS should be irrelevant, since, as I said, you only use that 'proc ASAP' as a safety net. Obviously if you have HU up you use IB before refreshing LB. Yes LB cannot proc HU, but I feel the additional LB ticks + explosions make up for that.

#59 midgettoes

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:21 AM

The best next step is to cast FB + pyro ! : they will land approx at the same time so if only one of them crit your HU proc will become HS.


Very interesting. Yes I agree. Does the OP rotation need to be updated for this? Thanks for pointing this out!

So if I understand this correct we will be going to use unglyphed Combustion as soon as we hit 4052 haste (as nongoblins). Because that would give us 12 ticks on combustion -> 24 in the time of a glyphed combustion while glyphed combustion would just give us 23 ticks because you need 5036 haste to get this 24th tick. I have no clue on the math behind this and I don't want to question anything behind this but I think this looks kinda weird. Still, if true would be interesting.


I would still use glyphed combustion. The reasoning is simply the fact that, while it would be possible to get extra ticks from an unglyphed combustion, it can also take some time to get the correct allignment of procs/buffs up to get a big combustion in the first place. If your combustion is on a 45 second cooldown I find it goes out of sync with other procs (trinkets for example), and can be hard to get a good combustion off. Effectively, those extra ticks will tick for less, making the smaller ticking, harder hitting original combustion better.

#60 xerty

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:03 PM

RE Glyph of Combustion

Combustion Doubles both the initial damage and CD of Combustion.

Does Glyph of Combustion not also double the duration of the DoT ?




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