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MoP Fire Mage Compendium 5.1 - Pyros'R'Us


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#81 Berthold

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 08:16 AM

I am in the middle of adding the dot spread from IB to simcraft and looking for some *exact* data on it, which I couldn't find yet.

On impact, Inferno Blast checks the target for Pyro/Combust/Ignite dot and the copies the dot over to other targets. My question is, how does it copy them.

Assuming I have a 200k ignite that has already ticked for 2 secs, i.e, has 100k damage remaining: Does the new target have a:
2 second Ignite with 100k damage
4 second Ignite with 100k damage
4 second Ignite with 200k damage

Does the spreaded dot benefit from haste or mastery?
Does the behavior differ for the three dot types?

Combatlogs to back up explanations or similar would be greatly appreciated.
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#82 rh8452

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:46 AM

Doing some brief testing:

When casting pyroblast at a training dummy which is deep frozen, then impacting the resulting pyroblast dot onto an adjacent dummy, the impacted dot retains the shatter crit modifier of the original dot.

When casting pyroblast at a training dummy, deep freezing an adjacent dummy, then impacting the pyroblast dot onto the frozen dummy, the impacted pyroblast dot appears to gain the shatter crit modifier, continuing to crit after the freeze wears off.

This hints to the mechanic having been changed along with dot snapshotting changes for mages. An impacted dot appears to snapshot the target's conditions when the dot is applied regardless of the conditions of the original target.

However, another test shows that your conditions don't affect the impacted dot.

Casting pyroblast on a target while standing in rune of power results in a dot that ticks for a specific amount. Stepping out of the rune, then impacting the dot, causes the impacted dot to continue ticking for the original dot's amount despite you not having the rune buff any longer.

Thus, impacted dots appear to continue to be exact duplicates of the original dot in both duration and buff modifiers, but are affected by the target's relevant debuffs when applied.

#83 Berthold

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:48 AM

Thanks for testing!

I will go with a check and store buffs on cast and check debuffs on impact/tick, and copy the dot state when spreading. Combustion is now spreading this way.

However, to make things more complicated, for ignite/pyroblast, we can already have one of those dots on the target. I'd assume that it then refreshes the dot with the added damage and recalculates ticks/haste based on your current stats.. Any chance you can check for that?
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#84 rh8452

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 04:04 AM

Ignite is unaffected by haste or crit and ticks at a fixed duration / frequency regardless of what amounts you have. It is only affected by mastery. If ignite is refreshed, its tick amount is calculated by the amount the fireball/pyroblast/inferno blast that created it hit for. Those spells are affected by crit, spellpower or haste in their respective ways, but unaffected by mastery. Ignite is applied, then its tick damage is increased based on your mastery when applied.

Pyroblast's dot does not "bank" the way ignite does, if the pyroblast dot is reapplied, the dot overwrites the old one and gains whatever crit or haste modifiers you had at the moment it was reapplied, the same way most other dots ingame will.

#85 Berthold

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 08:14 AM

Thanks for the clarification. The latest simcraft now spreads dots correctly with Inferno Blast and the profile is looking for improvements in AoE settings:-)
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#86 Jojocalypso

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 05:49 PM

I need some quick help understanding Alter Time and how to best use it effectively.

Here's my current interpretation of AT: I'm dps'ing a single target and I get Pyro and HU! procs while I have combustion available. I pop AT, which in 6 seconds, should bring me back to this current state of Pyro, HU!, and combustion. I then fire off pyro, IB, pyro, and combust, assuming that once I complete those, the 6 seconds should be up and I'll be returned to that previous state, ready for more pyro! and a combustion once the current one ends.

Since that hasn't been happening, I assume I'm interpreting AT incorrectly. How should one optimally use it? Thanks!

#87 Xriswest

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 08:01 PM

AT does not reset the cooldown of spells used. What that means is that if you get a Pyroblast! and HU proc you would pop: AT, Pyro, IB (for the HU proc), Pyro, AT (second time to reset procs), Pyro, Combustion. You will be left with a HU proc however IB will not be off cooldown again.
For the biggest bang take the Tier 1 talent Presence of Mind and use the following sequence once you have a Pyroblast! proc: PoM, AT, Pyro, Pyro, AT, Pyro, Pyro, Combustion

#88 Jojocalypso

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 08:10 PM

Ok, that makes a lot more sense. I do have PoM, so in that last example where the rotation is:

PoM, AT, Pyro, Pyro, AT, Pyro, Pyro, Combust.. where would I activate trinkets/other procs? Before the first AT? From reading the OP, it seems like AT is best used when procs/lust/etc are already rolling, meaning the optimum rotation (given procable trinkets) is:

Trinkets/Lust/etc, PoM, AT, Pyro, Pyro, AT, Pyro, Pyro, Combust. Right?

#89 Prokaryt

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:08 PM

Ok, that makes a lot more sense. I do have PoM, so in that last example where the rotation is:

PoM, AT, Pyro, Pyro, AT, Pyro, Pyro, Combust.. where would I activate trinkets/other procs? Before the first AT? From reading the OP, it seems like AT is best used when procs/lust/etc are already rolling, meaning the optimum rotation (given procable trinkets) is:

Trinkets/Lust/etc, PoM, AT, Pyro, Pyro, AT, Pyro, Pyro, Combust. Right?



You are correct, you want all potions/trinkets/haste/racials popped before casting AT. Also keep casting Pyro's as long as they are instant, dont stop at 2. For optimal play focus on casting combustion with a high ignite rather than rigidly casting it at the end of a set sequence.

#90 Jojocalypso

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 04:03 PM

You are correct, you want all potions/trinkets/haste/racials popped before casting AT. Also keep casting Pyro's as long as they are instant, dont stop at 2. For optimal play focus on casting combustion with a high ignite rather than rigidly casting it at the end of a set sequence.


What addons/techniques do you use to determine when the optimal time to combust is? Does CombustionHelper tell you when you have the largest rolling ignite?

#91 Doroteasenjk

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:56 PM

What addons/techniques do you use to determine when the optimal time to combust is? Does CombustionHelper tell you when you have the largest rolling ignite?


I notice that the Mage UI thread has not been updated in a long time so I will answer here.

CombustionHelper has a number of advantages but it tries to do a number of things such as tracking pyroblast, etc. MyBigIgnite only shows you the size of your current ignite tick (in either tick size or ignite DPS) and you can set a threshold where you want to seriously consider a combustion.

However, no UI can tell you what the "largest" rolling ignite is. You have to use your experience and other indicators to predict whether you can add to the flames, as it were.

#92 bonermobile

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:22 PM

For optimal play focus on casting combustion with a high ignite rather than rigidly casting it at the end of a set sequence.

This is the most important part, blindly using Combustion after you've run through all your Hot Streaks and Presence of Mind charges can be bad. If the first 2 or 3 Pyroblasts crit and the last 1 or 2 don't you can lose a significant chunk of damage on your Combustions.

#93 Prokaryt

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:49 PM

Getting good combustions is the difference between middle of the pack and top 3 dps IMO. At the same time any fight with adds introduces a wrinkle where you may want to sacrifice an optimal ignite for optimal spreading. The difficulty for fire mages comes with timing CD's and Procs together since we only really have Combustion+AT(PoM) as CDs.

For example on Tortos if I pop all CDS on the pull with my procs up I can get a higher combustion but lose a few seconds of DoT time with the turtle spawn timer. Its fairly RNG with getting everything to align and it can vary from 7-12 seconds of combustion on the turtles. In situations like this does anyone feel like it is vastly superior to hold it for full up time on all adds or do you just go with the more optimal ignite? Tortos is just an example; I'm trying to think in general about fights with adds worth spreading combustion. I feel "mathing it out" is not realistically feasible since for me the variables and randomness are too great to model but feel free to prove me wrong.

#94 Jojocalypso

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:14 PM

Good point. I've also experienced similar situations and have more often gone with the "get the combustion online and spread it asap" mentality. Then again, I'm not really raiding just yet, just doing LFR's until I figure out my schedule.

#95 katmage

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 08:29 PM

For example on Tortos if I pop all CDS on the pull with my procs up I can get a higher combustion but lose a few seconds of DoT time with the turtle spawn timer. Its fairly RNG with getting everything to align and it can vary from 7-12 seconds of combustion on the turtles. In situations like this does anyone feel like it is vastly superior to hold it for full up time on all adds or do you just go with the more optimal ignite? Tortos is just an example; I'm trying to think in general about fights with adds worth spreading combustion. I feel "mathing it out" is not realistically feasible since for me the variables and randomness are too great to model but feel free to prove me wrong.


It really depends how much holding your CDs will affect your combustion. With a trinket like Wushoolay's, you'll be able to start a good ignite rolling then pop alter time at 14 seconds in and still have a big intellect buff up until you use combustion. If you have four short intellect procs on pull, you'll get a better combustion by capitalising on them with alter time, even if it means less uptime on the turtles. I haven't put any maths into it, but in my experience there's a big difference between spreading a good combustion, and spreading a subpar one.

#96 Nandchan

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 06:15 PM

Is it better to use combustion (almost) as soon as the 1.5m are up (assuming I glyphed it for the larger 3m burst), even if I have a relatively low ignite running, or should I wait until I get a somewhat better ignite, thus delaying the 3m burst (assuming I want to line them up again)? How long should I delay my 3m burst in order to get a larger 1.5m ignite?

Another question I had: If you save your Pyroblast procs until you get another Heating Up, then cast a Fireball and an instant Pyro at the same time, then the Heating Up is upgraded to Pyroblast if either of the spells crit, thus giving you better chances of getting another Pyroblast proc than if you had consumed the first one right away and kept casting fireballs normally. However, if you have Inferno Blast up at the same time and neither of your spells crit, the Heating Up proc is wasted, even though you could have upgraded it with Inferno Blast. My question is basically whether it's better to always hold on to Pyroblast even if Inferno Blast is up, or whether it's better to just cast the Pyroblast as soon as Inferno Blast comes off cooldown.

Normally I'd try and answer these kinds of questions with simc, but I don't have a reliable fire profile that matches my actual numbers/what I'm doing ingame.

Edit: After playing a lot with the training dummy, simc, and addons like CombustionHelper, I think I found the answer to at least one of my questions in at least one situation: When combustion is off cooldown for the 1.5m burst, and a Pyroblast immediately leads into another Pyroblast proc (if I had Heating Up before), then it's better to consume the second Pyroblast proc straight away. If I get two big crits with pyro with only a GCD between them, then I immediately pass my threshold for combustion. If I squeeze another Fireball in between them though, the first ignite falls off too much for my threshold to be reached.

#97 Hamlet

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 06:52 PM

I've been curious about a lot of the questions that come up on this thread, that don't seem have to definitive answers. I spent a little time today trying to figure out what's the best rotation between Combustions (maximizing Combustions is another topic entirely, although one I still want to get to). As has been discussed, it basically comes down to 2 options:
A) After proccing Hot Streak with IB, hold onto it until you get a second HU. Then cast a simultaneous FB and Pyro!, hoping for at least one crit to repeat the process.
B) Cast Pyro! immediately after the IB, thus maximizing your ability to use IB to upgrade HU to HS as often as possible.

I made a simple spreadsheet that models both rotations as Markov chains (processes with a set number of states, each of which has a certain probability to lead to any of the others). It's still a work in progress--I've spent maybe an hour so far just setting something up to put the concept in place. For now rather than focus on conclusions, I'm going to describe the logic in detail below so people can try spot any issues that need to be refined.

--------

Rotation A (save HS procs until HS+HU)):
State 1: you have no HU or HS.
Action: cast FB until HU appears, complete 1 more FB and cast IB.
Transitions: if the final FB crits, state 4 (HU+HS). If not, state 3 (HS only).

State 2: you have HU only. Not applicable in this rotation.

State 3: you have HS only.
Action: cast FB until HU appears.
Transitions: always to state 4.

State 4: you have HS and HU.
Action: cast simultaneous FB and Pyro!
Transitions: if neither crits, state 1. if one crits, state 3. If both crit, repeat state 4.

Rotation B (use HS procs right away):
State 1: you have no HU or HS.
Action: cast FB until HU appears, complete 1 more FB and cast IB, then cast Pyro!.
Transitions: if the Pyro! doesn't crit, repeat state 1 (regardless of whether the final FB crit). If only the Pyro! crit, state 2 (HU only). If both the Pyro! and final FB crit, state 3 (HS).

State 2: you have HU and IB is on cooldown.
Action: cast one FB.
Transition: if it crits, state 3 (HS). If not, state 1.

State 3: you have HS.
Action: cast Pyro!
Transition: if it crits, state 2 (HU). If not, state 1.

State 4: you have HU+HS. Not applicable in this rotation.

---------

The attached spreadsheet implements the logic listed above and uses the transition probabilities to compute the average amount of time spend in each state in both of the rotations, to determine a mean long-term DPS. Living Bomb is ignored since it doesn't interact with HS--it should be mostly independent of the optimal sequence of DD spells. Haste and mastery are ignored since it affects the damage per execution time of all the relevant spells equally.

Like I said, will get into results at some point, but for now the main focus is whether the rotation logic is accurate or what corrections need to be made.

#98 Timisoreanu

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:59 AM

The rotation depends on what other proccs you have (trinkets), overall crit chance, encounter mechanics, Combustion CD etc.

IF you have like 5 sec left on combustion CD then it's advised to fish for HU+HS and if you get a decent ignite just combust it. Otherwise wait for one that worths using it.

If you are about to use all CD's (PoM, pot, AT), clearely allign them all and there is no other way to get a big ignite than stacking HU and HS.

Looking in Hamlet's spreadsheet, mathematically makes sence but when you have to deal with % chance everithing changes. Higher crit chance, higher the probabillity to benefit more from saving pyro! untill you get a new HU. Besides if you are using it 2 seconds later, nothing changes except your ignite that can be higher.

Only reason to use pyro! right away is if your 100% procc chance or intellect procc goes off in the next 1-2 seconds.
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