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#21 Schmoopy

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 05:32 PM

I am pretty sure Elusiveness does not have any effect on Voodoo Dolls. Can anyone confirm? If so you will want to amend the summary as below:

Gara'jal the Spiritbinder
- Glyph of Deadly Momentum for the adds.
- Elusiveness for when you are targeted by voodoo dolls.


I have tested elusiveness on voodoo doll damage and it does not effect it in any way. See my post on page 3 of the raid mechanics thread: http://elitistjerks....d_mechanics/p3/ (I cannot link directly to the relevant post because add is blocking the button). It should still work for the Shadow Bolts that the adds cast. This damage is not AoE damage, so it will not be reduced via feint unless you spec elusiveness.

#22 Viper

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 10:14 PM

With the 5.1 change to Dancing Steel ( Windsong and Elemental Force Information - Forums - World of Warcraft ), the values in http://elitistjerks....p5/#post2207687 can be revisited to illustrate the relative value on MH and OH.

At BIS EP values:
Windsong any hand (61.2% uptime of some stat) = 1144 EP
5.0 Dancing Steel OH (24.2% uptime of agi) = 1094 EP
5.1 Dancing Steel any hand (50.2% uptime of agi) = 2270 EP

These are relatively straightforward to ballpark, the 5.0 MH Dancing Steel value is a bit tougher since it varies with special ability frequency. Just drawing straight from my own logs, on a fight like Garajal I've seen around 70% uptime on dancing steel when I only have it on my MH (playing as combat). With an uptime like that, you'd be talking about 3165 EP. That said, I don't know if this is statistically relevant so I'm putting it here with a big caveat. Overall it seems like their goal may be to keep 2x dancing steel in the same general realm of dps but shift the contribution of each enchant to be a little less weighted towards the MH.

#23 Jerle

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 12:44 PM

I have a question about the rotation, I currently have a worgen rogue with 467 average ilevel (couple of epics, nothing that good) and I find my dps over about 50mil to be about 38k on the raiders dummy. I can provide exact stats at a later date if needed.

Regardless, my question is this: How much better should my dps be with rupture (it is 38k with or without) and how do I use this rotation?

At the moment i find myself unable to evisc most of the time due to the durations of S&D and rupture both being too low at the wrong time (e.g. both have 15secs left) which does not leave enough time to evisc -> refresh both before one drops. So as it is, when I use rupture I only really evisc on rare occasions / when AR + SB are active. As I said before, my dps does not really change at all and in fact becomes more difficult to manage than the simplistic evisc approach as I have no idea what to do about the clashing durations that always seem to appear. In addition to this, when I look at my recount evisc is ALWAYS above rupture on damage dealt, making me question the choice to add it in at all.

One last question I would like to ask, does the KS damage increase affect deadly poison / rupture ticks, or is it just the KS damage?

#24 Kirtar88

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 01:57 PM

Regardless, my question is this: How much better should my dps be with rupture (it is 38k with or without) and how do I use this rotation?

[...]

One last question I would like to ask, does the KS damage increase affect deadly poison / rupture ticks, or is it just the KS damage?


- If you have to decide between rupture and evis, only use rupture when the remaining has <3 seconds duration. It will always be a dps increase, but it's only minor. Probably around +1-2% dps. It's normal that your evis deals more damage than rupture per execution. The reason why you want to use rupture is, that it costs 10 energy less then evis and so it's damage per energy spent is higher than evis'. If you don't feel any dps gain from weaving rupture due to the increasing complexity or whatever, you might as well skip using it until you feel comfortable with it.

- Always keep SnDs uptime prioritized over everything else. So try to always refresh it with whatever CP you currently have once its duration hits <2s, so the GCD used for SnD will almost exactly refresh it, once it fades. You might want to try refreshing SnD before entering deep insight with at least 2 CP if the remaining duration of SnD is less than ~16s, so you won't have to refresh it while in deep insight.

- The bonus damage from KS doesn't increase previously applied dots from poison or rupture. It increases it's own damage and the whitehits(+shadow blades) done while KS is active.

#25 Alash

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 03:54 PM

Given that Adrenaline Rush is now off GCD, the macro could be expanded upon:

#showtooltip
/startattack
/cast Adrenaline Rush
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Sinister Strike

There's a debate to be had on whether the risk of energy capping exceeds the risk of losing that CP if you're at 4-5 Anticipation stacks. However, given the nature of Restless Blades I find that you're likely to use AR at much fewer CPs, thus going a long way to diminish the risk, while maximizing use of GCDs.

#26 koaschten

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 05:17 PM

...or the risk of triggering AR when you actually have to be moving during the uptime if you just mindlessly spam your macro.
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#27 Kirtar88

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 05:19 PM

Given that Adrenaline Rush is now off GCD, the macro could be expanded upon:

#showtooltip
/startattack
/cast Adrenaline Rush
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Sinister Strike

There's a debate to be had on whether the risk of energy capping exceeds the risk of losing that CP if you're at 4-5 Anticipation stacks. However, given the nature of Restless Blades I find that you're likely to use AR at much fewer CPs, thus going a long way to diminish the risk, while maximizing use of GCDs.


The "/cast Sinister Strike" line will (sometimes) waste CP in a scenario, where you have three or more anticipation charges and use the macro(You kind of said that already). I often immediately use an offensive finisher after activating AR, so for maximum performance u'd probably also need macros with "/cast Eviscerate", "/cast Rupture" and "/cast Slice and Dice". With a hotkey configuration allowing the simultaneous use of SS/Evis/Rupture/SnD and the AR macro you shouldn't lose a GCD at all unless you're slow with button smashing.

I'm not sure about other rogues, but since i swapped all my gemming to maximise the haste amount on my gear, i sometimes have trouble(depends on energy restore procs) not to cap on energy while AR is up anyway, so i'd go for the variation of eliminating the risk of losing a CP.

Given the nature of Restless Blades for me it's actually more likely to have more CPs when using AR and this is why:
- AR often readies due to restless blades after using a finisher.
- If this finisher was used outsight of deep insight, we usually have some anticipation converted to CP afterwards.
- So we are somewhere around 1-5 CP and 40+ energy after using this finisher, because of Relentless Strikes. Add another one of two SS/RvS to get low on energy before popping AR and we are around 3-9 CP.
- So with two SS/RvS used before popping AR we could end up wasting 1-2 CP with the macro and even more if we used more SS/RvS before due to energy restore procs.

Some thoughts on the energy capping side:
- With my current gear(which is not too great) i got 28.23 energy reg per second and ~1.2s speed on both weapons when AR is active annd a 37,5% chance to trigger my mastery when raidbuffed.
- Using finishers with 5 CP grants 25 energy, so rupture and SnD "don't consume" energy with 5 CP and evis uses 10 energy.
- Our GCD while AR is active is 0.8s when glyphed.
- The proc chance of combat potency is 20% for main gauche and (20*OffhandWeaponSpeed/1.4)% for OH whitehits.(I use a 2.6 OH)

Math with my stats:
MH white every 1.2s, MH yellow every 0.8s, OH white every 1.2s.
-> ~2.08 MH attacks per second, that can proc main gauche into combat potency. -> ~2.34 energy per second from MH attacks.
-> ~0.83 OH attacks per second, that can proc potency with a chance of ~37.14% -> ~4.62 energy per second from OH attacks. (This assumes no misses on OH whites, actual value would be 4.21 energy per second)

That's a sum of 28.23 + 2.34 + 4.62 = 35.19 energy per second.

With the RvS debuff(assume no new application during AR, but a 100% uptime of the debuff) and AR/SB active one SS gives 2.2 CP on average, so we can use a 5 CP finisher every ~2.27 GCDs worth of SS, which can be done in 1.816 seconds with the AR glyph. Adding the finisher on another 0.8s GCD we generated and used 5 CP over the course of 2.616 seconds for the cost of 88-98 energy(2.2 times SS and 0-10 for finishers). In this 2.616 seconds i regenerate 92 energy on average.

Adding server lag and human behaviour, i will most likely generate more energy than i can use up(on average), so with better gear it might be impossible to not overcap on energy anyway with AR active, so i'd probably just go for eliminating the risk of wasting CPs and thus not use such a macro.

Any thoughts?

One additional note: When BF is active, we won't cap and thus risking the loss of CPs should be avoided.

#28 Hadouken

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 03:07 AM

I would realy preciate if you're doing the "final" calcs on the undead and troll racial :)

#29 Knarcus

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:09 PM

Hi, I have got several questions which I could not find the answer for in the rogue threads. I did not read all of them, but I did read most of the current ones.


1. Is it a good idea to use our CDs (AR+SB or KS) during Bloodlust?
If that is the case, how long should I wait for Bloodlust to match my CDs with it before I lose out on total DPS by not using my CDs on cooldown?


2. Should I turn off BF while attacking 2 Targets when I am using KS and turn it back on afterwards?


3. How does the targeting system for BF work? I think it uses my Proximity to the 2nd target, which I am not attacking, and the relative angle I am facing the 2nd target with.
- I think I found the answer to this on wowhead. One comment says that there is no angle requirement (BF can even copy attacks to targets behind you) and that there is a 5 yards max distance requirement to both targets. So you could hit one target that is 5 yards in front of you and BF would still copy the swings to the 2nd target 5yards behind you.
I will still leave the question up in case somebody has the same question.


4. My last question is regarding binding my trinkets and engineer enchant to my CDs:
Currently I only have my elove enchant every 60s ready, and there are trinkets in game with 90s and 120s on use CDs.
Is it a good idea to bind my gloves to Both AR+SB and KS? Or should I use them on cooldown for max uptime?

How long does it take for AR+SB take to be off CD when you are having 100% uptime against a single boss? How long vs 2 targets using BF?
Will that time match one of the listed trinket CD windows or will one of them be significantly earlier ready than the other? And if so, will it be worth the wait to match them up?

5. When fighting 2 targets (Stone Guard) should I switch targets whenever RvS fades for max poison uptime on both targets?


I know these are a lot of questions, I would really appreciate if you answered all of them.

PS:"[Glyph of Feint] - Any fight with AoE raid damage. Also adds 2 seconds to the duration of the elusiveness talent."
- It only adds 2 seconds to the overall duration, so you can get rid of the "Also"

#30 Druss

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:28 PM

Encounter tip for Garalon:

Be cautious using Killing Spree. You can still use it but only if you trigger it at a point where it will only attack a leg rather than the body (if you trigger it in range of the body that will put you under the boss and trigger a Crush).

#31 Kirtar88

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:51 PM

1. Is it a good idea to use our CDs (AR+SB or KS) during Bloodlust?
If that is the case, how long should I wait for Bloodlust to match my CDs with it before I lose out on total DPS by not using my CDs on cooldown? [...]

2. Should I turn off BF while attacking 2 Targets when I am using KS and turn it back on afterwards?

3. How does the targeting system for BF work? [...]

4. Currently I only have my elove enchant every 60s ready, and there are trinkets in game with 90s and 120s on use CDs. Is it a good idea to bind my gloves to Both AR+SB and KS? Or should I use them on cooldown for max uptime?

How long does it take for AR+SB take to be off CD when you are having 100% uptime against a single boss? How long vs 2 targets using BF?
Will that time match one of the listed trinket CD windows or will one of them be significantly earlier ready than the other? And if so, will it be worth the wait to match them up?

5. When fighting 2 targets (Stone Guard) should I switch targets whenever RvS fades for max poison uptime on both targets?


1. This comes down a lot to the need of extra dps while bloodlust is active and total fight length. If AR/KS is rdy when BL is popped and you delay it for 40 seconds, you're most of the time guaranteed to lose a full AR/KS over the course of the fight, so you should use it while BL is active, but not delay it to wait for BL. BL doesn't have a huge impact on KS in terms of energy capping, but for AR you will most likely perma-cap, but with the introduction of SB, using AR while BL is up, isn't too bad any longer. It might be beneficial to use AR without SB if a bloodlust will be active soon and line SB with bloodlust + potion. We probably need further discussion regarding this topic.

2. No.

3. It's a 360° with your character as the center, spreading the damage into all directions if there is a target to hit within range. So as you said, you can also hit targets behind you with BF.

4.1 For the gloves and trinkets you wan't to use them as often as possible throughout the encounter, so you need to compare the cooldown with the respective enrage timers. If your raid will wipe at e.g. 8:30 because of an enrage, your last use of such items should be at (8:30 - buff_duration), so 8:20 for the gloves and so on. If you got spare seconds according to those values and can delay it for the use with AR/KS you should go for it. Macroing the gloves might be a good idea, if its your only or strongest on-use effect, since most of them trigger their duration as cooldown for other on-uses so you want to use the strongest to line them with your dps cooldowns.

4.2 This significantly depends on the amount of haste your gear has. For your personal values you could run simC and check the interval of uses for AR and KS respectively. The T14H entry on the simC page shows that AR/SB occur every 87.75s and KS every 60.96s with 100% uptime on a patchwerk-encounter.

5. If you can manage to do so without losing dps, you should do it. You can even switch at any time for some whitehits to proc the poison and retarget your RvS target again before using SS or finishers. Try to keep track of your raids debuffs though(weakened armor, +4% phys. dmg taken, etc). If only one target has them, you want to stick with that one.

#32 Honzu

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:35 PM

2. Should I turn off BF while attacking 2 Targets when I am using KS and turn it back on afterwards?

Just a little clarification on Kirtar's 'no.' Blade flurry copies KS hits.

#33 shadowboy813

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:14 PM

I just want to note a minor correction in the single target rotation.

Clipping the last tick of a higher insight rupture IS a dps loss. It does not work the way it's described in the guide. What it does is if you apply rupture with say 1.5sec remaining on the current one, the new one is 25.5 sec and the last tick of the previous rupture takes on the per-tick new rupture value--there is no stacking/rolling. Basically what you get is 11 ticks at old value and 13 ticks at new value. It does NOT add the remaining deep insight damage to the new lower-insight rupture.

Here is a picture demonstrating:

Posted Image

Note that there are 11 ticks at 3194 damage (a deep insight rupture--you can see the deep insight aura fade after the 5th tick). At 06:51:14 is the first tick of a new, no-insight rupture (you can tell because 3194 / 1.3 = 2456.9). Note that there are 11 ticks at 3194 damage and 13 ticks at 2457.

If it used the "rolling" method of ignite, the new rupture would have added about 266 (3194 / 12) damage to each tick of the new rupture. (3194 / 1.3) + 266 = 2723. The damage of the new rupture is almost exactly 23% (1 - 1/1.3) less than the deep insight rupture, on a per tick basis.

For that picture I used unenchanted weapons and unequipped my trinkets. There were no procs that increase my attack power. Revealing strike was not used. My attack power was 33,341.

#34 Kirtar88

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 03:26 PM

At http://elitistjerks....p8/#post2211070 i wrote the following:

- Apply 5 CP Rupture with a specific insight level (shallow, moderate, deep)
- Clip the last tick(duration <= 3 seconds) with a 5 CP Rupture of a lower insight level compared to the one you've been in when applying the first Rupture.

Result:
The clipped tick not only increased the duration of the new Rupture by up to 3 seconds(this was known before ofc), but also merged the former higher damage due to a higher inside level into the first tick of the new rupture.

Values:
- 5 CP no insight ticks: 2429 dmg
- 5 CP deep insight ticks: 3157 dmg
- 5 CP no insight rupture clipping a tick of a 5 CP deep insight rupture ticks: 5585(~2429+3157) dmg for the first tick and the usual 2429 for the others


What i said in the guide is that the additional damage of the higher insight tick will only be added to the first tick of your freshly applied rupture, not that it's damage will be evenly spread among all ticks. But your log indeed doesn't show that either, so it probably got fixed since i last tested it. I will try it again and post my combat log excerpt.

Edit: Tested it once more and i indeed couldn't get any extra damage to my first tick of the new lower insight rupture. Need to do the calculations now if it's still worthwile to clip the tick or not.

#35 shadowboy813

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:45 PM

In order for adding the two rupture tick damages to work without creating damage out of thin air, the first rupture would have to have a tick removed for a total of 23 ticks--otherwise clipping a tick of every rupture would become a dps gain and I do not believe that's what blizzard would intend.

As to whether or not it's worth clipping a higher insight rupture, I would guess no. It may still be better damage-per-energy than eviscerate, but it may be better to just pool the up-to-2 seconds (rupture ticks 2 seconds, clipping at 2<x<4 will lose a tick) and apply after it falls off, or add to anticipation charges (if talented) until then. Uptime for combat is not as important as it is for the other two specs. In late-gear scaling (not necessarily T14) it may even turn out that you don't want to clip the last tick of a higher-insight rupture at all, due to the fact that eviscerate has a higher AP coefficient than rupture.

In either case, due to those mechanics it is unequivocally a damage gain to clip the last tick of a lower insight rupture with a higher insight one. I did extensive testing on rupture clipping mechanics in beta, as seen in this post. The behavior is the same in the converse scenario where you clip a lower insight rupture with a higher one. I've found that no-insight to early shallow insight ruptures fall off during deep insight. Whether or not it's worth delaying the rupture if it falls off in moderate insight, I don't know.

#36 13a5ti

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:22 PM

With Engineering you can attach either
Nitro Boosts (massive movement speed boost, but can fail and leave a DoT on you, that can be cloaked; 3min CD)
or
Frag Belt (33,299 to 38,700 Fire Damage; 1min CD; no GCD; instant small 3y AoE; can crit; scales with some buffs like Touch of the Titans (Elegon); does not reset your swing timer; about 600DPS per target you can hit (do not use it on Wind Lord, the mini stun counts as CC!!))
to your belt.

#37 Egészségére

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:11 AM

Use

#showtooltip ambush
/cast [@focus] tricks of the trade
/cast ambush

when vanishing will boost your raid dps, if you dont glyph tricks and got shadow focus talent.

Not much but everything counts.

#38 Roketsu86

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:18 AM

Use

#showtooltip ambush
/cast [@focus] tricks of the trade
/cast ambush

when vanishing will boost your raid dps, if you dont glyph tricks and got shadow focus talent.

Not much but everything counts.


I would not recommend using a macro like that, as TotT is on the GCD and thus you'd spend more time in stealth and no auto attacking than you should.

#39 Seliathan

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:17 AM

TotT got its GCD removed quite a while ago, just fyi.

#40 Khazilein

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 09:58 AM

Would like to add for Amber-Shaper Un'sok: Preparation for removing Parasitic Growth.

The debuff is a major problem in this fight, being able to remove it more often, is a huge asset.




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