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The Art of Combat


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#41 Mr_V

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 02:28 PM

I have just upgraded Windswept Pages Shado-Pan's agility/haste trinket Hawkmaster Talon as according to the Shadowcraft it was the largest dps gain for my current gear for VP-sold gear.

Just wondering about this though - the tooltip says:

+1079 Agility
Use: Increases your haste by 3,595 for 15 sec. (1 Min Cooldown)

For combat spec, haste is most important after hit/expertise cap, and much more important than mastery/crit. However, seeing that trinket is USE and not PROC, I'm wondering what is the best time to use it? My initial thought is to macro it to be used with Adrenaline Rush and Shadowblades.

But does this make sense? Haste helps energy regeneration, i.e. speed of the attacks. Since Adrenaline Rush already boosts energy regeneration by 100%, would it not make more sense to use this trinket in between Adrenaline Rushes, when I'm actually waiting for energy to be regenerated to do a few SS's and other hits?

Of course, a good answer is "use whenever possible" as it has a relatively short CD, but just wondering would I benefit more, if I had the option, in trying to use it between Adrenaline Rushes rather than during them?

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#42 CodeNameSly

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 03:22 PM

But does this make sense? Haste helps energy regeneration, i.e. speed of the attacks. Since Adrenaline Rush already boosts energy regeneration by 100%, would it not make more sense to use this trinket in between Adrenaline Rushes, when I'm actually waiting for energy to be regenerated to do a few SS's and other hits?


As long as you don't end up capping on energy when you use it during AR, then there is no problem with doing so. Indeed, if you're using AR and Shadow Blades together, this will be optimal. Obviously you will be able to use it between ARs, as well. Most likely you will be able to use it with first AR, on CD, during second AR, etc.

#43 Slymon

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:41 PM

1. Have anyone done any math considering saving CP's for a higher insight level through Anticipation vs. reaching a higher insight level faster with the help of the energy you regen from your finishers?
When I try to save up 9-10 CP's for a higher insight level, I feel like things are going so slow. At my current state of gear, I'm nowhere near capping energy without AR/SB. So I'm wondering if that extra energy that I might gain from a couple of "early" evis will be a dps gain?

2. I've caught myself a few times really pushing to get rupture up before a KS. It naturally seems like a dps gain to have all dots up before you go into a state you can't controll. But after reading here, it seems like I shouldn't use a damaging finisher at all. I should just save up as many CP's as possible. And if KS still got a few secs on CD, I should use Evis instead while waiting and a SS to dump energy beofre the KS.
Am I correct?

#44 Guaicow

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:08 AM

Is rupture a DPS gain EVEN if you are in the final seconds of Deep Insight?

#45 Chult86

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:21 AM

Is rupture a DPS gain EVEN if you are in the final seconds of Deep Insight?


I thought it was established that Rupture ticks don't change, so if you apply it during DI it will keep ticking for that 30% increased damage.
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#46 Viper

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:38 AM

I thought it was established that Rupture ticks don't change, so if you apply it during DI it will keep ticking for that 30% increased damage.

This. The choice of using Rupture vs using Evis doesn't depend on Insight level because the damage is calculated at the time of application.

From the logs:

[22:58:37.391] Viper Rupture Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 10655
[22:58:39.412] Viper Rupture Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 10655
[22:58:41.385] Viper Rupture Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 10655
[22:58:43.390] Viper Rupture Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 10655
[22:58:43.463] Viper's Deep Insight fades from Viper
[22:58:45.403] Viper Rupture Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 10655
[22:58:47.452] Viper Rupture Gara'jal the Spiritbinder *21949*
[22:58:49.405] Viper Rupture Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 10655
[22:58:51.465] Viper Rupture Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 10655



#47 Feano

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 02:22 PM

Can anyone clarify; I have a ilvl 502 Dagger and a 489 Fist wep, I'm assuming I should be using the dagger as my mainhand for the extra melee damage as it's the biggest portion of my damage breakdown, although i'd be losing SS and KS dmg etc.

Can't seem to find a definitive answer anywhere..

#48 Dharenna

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:53 PM

Can anyone clarify; I have a ilvl 502 Dagger and a 489 Fist wep, I'm assuming I should be using the dagger as my mainhand for the extra melee damage as it's the biggest portion of my damage breakdown, although i'd be losing SS and KS dmg etc.

Can't seem to find a definitive answer anywhere..


On this case you did not pay attention the very first article on this thread.
---
Gearing section:
"Always use a slow(2.6s speed) mainhand."
---

I think it should be colored red and written in 40pt font - since every now and then someone comes up with idea of using dagger on MH as combat. Due weapon normalization you never do that, not even if dagger is like 15 item-levels higher.

#49 Feano

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:42 AM

That's what I wanted clarification on, as "Always use a slow(2.6s speed) mainhand." isn't actually the case, nor is there any explanation of why.

#50 Viper

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 04:24 AM

It's very nearly always the case. I loaded up my profile in Shadowcraft and gave myself a heroic (509) Spiritsever in the MH. I then searched around for which slow weapon matched its dps. The LFR (476) Gara'kal beat it by 300 dps. The 470 pvp weapons are finally worse. So I'd say as long as you have a slow weapon within 35 ilvls of your dagger, use the slow weapon. Generally speaking, that's always.

#51 Lilìtu

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:57 PM

You shouldn't look at the weapon dps for the MH's choice.

In your case, dagger has 3,5k dps, while fist has 3,1k, due to the lower item level. So, the dagger seems to be a better choice, but SS and RS are based on weapon maximum damage, not its dps. So the dagger has 8k damage, while fist has 10,5k, that's 2,5k more damage for every SS or RS, not counting mastery proc, blade flurry, etc etc.

At the same ilvl, a 2,6 weap does 44,5% more maximum damage than a 1,8, and that's the reason the legendary Golad had 45% SS and RS bonus.

Due to Combat Potency balancing, you have no more need of a fastest OH, and you can choose both 1,8 and 2,6 weapons, where 2,6 OHs do a little more KS damage.

#52 Chult86

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:30 PM

Any calculations about how much stronger (or not) a slow OH is in comparison to a fast OH of the same DPS range?

Not talking about the problems with the KS Usage like Garalon where you could prefer a faster OH for the same amount of energyregen but more poison proccs.

I am askin that, cause a few rogues (and roguetwinks) of relatively good guilds, where a gearing problem shouldnt be significant, are wearing some daggers in their OH's.


Using two slow weapons pulls ahead mostly due to KS damage iirc. When you're not able to safely KS, on fights like Garalon, you're better off using a dagger offhand.
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#53 reg0ner

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:21 PM

Using two slow weapons pulls ahead mostly due to KS damage iirc. When you're not able to safely KS, on fights like Garalon, you're better off using a dagger offhand.


Who says you can't KS on Garalon? Sure you can; the legs.

#54 Jinjiro

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:24 PM

Who says you can't KS on Garalon? Sure you can; the legs.


That's insanely risky, however, since you can (and probably will) KS to underneath him - triggering Crush. If there's a way to avoid this it would be nice to post it here and on the mechanics thread.

#55 Roketsu86

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:37 PM

That's insanely risky, however, since you can (and probably will) KS to underneath him - triggering Crush. If there's a way to avoid this it would be nice to post it here and on the mechanics thread.


It actually is in the mechanics thread here. For the sake of completeness I'll copy it to this post as well though:

Oh, are the targets Killing Spree can attack determined by what's within range when you initiate killing spree, rather than what's near you at any given jump?


On Garalon that is the case.

using KS on the fron legs is more beneficial because 100% of the KS Damge will be partially copied by Blade Flurry.
while using KS on the rear legs I experienced about 20% of my KS hits being partially copied.

I think this is due to the front legs being closer to the body than the rear legs.

However, on the front legs you have to be very cautious, using KS while being a little too close will teleport you into the purple circle. The rear legs are more position friendly regarding that.



#56 bromli

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:35 PM

I could be wrong here, but wouldn't a heavy cleave fight like garalon favor slow OH anyway? Poison procs are the only benefit of fast OH, and those aren't copied. You would (I think) need a fight where a) you can't spree, and B) there's little to no flurry opportunity in order for fast OH to win. There aren't any fights like that currently, and if there were I'd just go assass.

#57 bi0bi0

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:43 PM

That's insanely risky, however, since you can (and probably will) KS to underneath him - triggering Crush. If there's a way to avoid this it would be nice to post it here and on the mechanics thread.


get 11y from the Body away and press KS, its still risky havent done it on Heroic until now (RangeDisplay is an nice Addon for this, put the body @focus and let you Display the Range to it, also good too see if it is in BF range)

#58 Moritsume

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:45 PM

Regarding KS on Garalon, I tried last night and thought I had it down pretty well until one put me in the purple circle. He didn't begin to stomp until after Killing Spree was over (unfortunately the last hit left me in the purple circle). The hits made on the body where I then went back to the leg did not trigger a crush.

With this in mind, the minor glyph for Killing Spree that puts you in the same spot you started it at seems like it would solve the problem even if your KS goes astray and hits the body, since it would port you back to your starting spot near the leg.

#59 Hurlbut

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:32 AM

Just thought I would post and request a quick edit to the OP that the Anticipation bug generating extra CP's with CT has been hotfixed as of the Nov. 28th hotfix.

#60 Twoboxer

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:40 AM

With this in mind, the minor glyph for Killing Spree that puts you in the same spot you started it at seems like it would solve the problem even if your KS goes astray and hits [Garalon's] body, since it would port you back to your starting spot near the leg.

On LFR I've been "seen" under the body and caused Crush when starting on the leg with the glyph.




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