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5.2 Changes Discussion


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#181 Enzo90910

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:23 AM

Looks like a 8.3% buff to everything but poisons, hmmm something like a 3-4% buff overall (likely less by end of T15)?

#182 fierydemise

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 08:37 PM

Looks like all that work on RPPM proc rates as a function of ilvl was for not (at least in the general case). Blue Post:

For clarification, does the last statement about the proc rate multipliers apply to all the agility trinkets or just the Rune of Re-Origination?

Just Rune of Re-Origination.

#183 Impatientus

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:20 PM

Looks like a 8.3% buff to everything but poisons, hmmm something like a 3-4% buff overall (likely less by end of T15)?


it's all damage, poisons included. so 8.33% on top of (or rather multiplied by) the ~3.5% buff from Dispatch and Envenom.

the RPPM nerf will hit every proc it's used in, meaning weapon enchants, trinket procs, the works. It remains to be seen what impact this will have on our simulated dps.

#184 Astrylian

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:02 PM

it's all damage, poisons included.


No it's not. Assassin's Resolve applies only to damage that requires a dagger equipped.

EDIT: Nevermind, looks like this got fixed. It used to work this way, but no longer seems to. Apologies for the confusion.
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#185 Grimwolf

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 04:13 AM

No it's not. Assassin's Resolve applies only to damage that requires a dagger equipped.


Are you sure about that?

While wielding daggers, your maximum Energy is increased by 20 and your damage is increased by 20%.


Assassin's Resolve requires daggers, but the tool-tip seems to say all damage. Of course, I've been known to misread tool-tips..

*The 20% damage increase is from the old tool-tip on wowhead. It hasn't been updated yet.

#186 Nalinaa

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:54 AM

Are you sure about that?



Assassin's Resolve requires daggers, but the tool-tip seems to say all damage. Of course, I've been known to misread tool-tips..

*The 20% damage increase is from the old tool-tip on wowhead. It hasn't been updated yet.


It's all damage you deal, you can test it by hitting the dummy with one on dagger, then switching it for anything but a dagger and the poison damage goes down about 20% (more or less based on if you lose mastery/agi), same with venomous vim and I am sure it will be the case for all other damage. Not just damage that the daggers exclusively deal.

Not that it matters all that much because that PTR change never made it to live, so things will be they same as they were in regards to Assassin's Resolve.

#187 Khazilein

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 03:02 PM

It's all damage you deal, you can test it by hitting the dummy with one on dagger, then switching it for anything but a dagger and the poison damage goes down about 20% (more or less based on if you lose mastery/agi), same with venomous vim and I am sure it will be the case for all other damage. Not just damage that the daggers exclusively deal.

Not that it matters all that much because that PTR change never made it to live, so things will be they same as they were in regards to Assassin's Resolve.


Of course it did. Just the tooltip is not changed till the next real mini patch.
Its 30 % and for every damage, including poisons and everything.

Just tested it on a dummy. ~25k ticks of deadly poison with 2 daggers, with 1 fist+1dagger ~19k so thats about 30 %

#188 Vikken

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 05:04 PM

Of course it did. Just the tooltip is not changed till the next real mini patch.
Its 30 % and for every damage, including poisons and everything.

Just tested it on a dummy. ~25k ticks of deadly poison with 2 daggers, with 1 fist+1dagger ~19k so thats about 30 %



Just to sort the confusion, rolling restarts this morning could have applied hotfixes. Rygarius was tweeting that he was compiling them last night.

Using ST (it's static damage), some vendor daggers and no procs and whatnot, damage was 18245. After unequipping weapons, damage was 14034. 14034 x 1.3 = 18244.

So, to confirm, It appears that the (30%) buff is working now.

EDIT: I RETESTED AFTER THE HOTFIX NOTES, AND IT APPEARS THAT THE MULTIPLIER IS NOW 1.25, WHICH AGREES WITH THE HOTFIX NOTES.

#189 dommy

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:16 AM

I apologize if this has been discussed, but I acquired and and after about an hour of messing around with it, including a 15 minute session on dummies, it seems as though the procs don't stack. Regardless of whether this is intended or something that needs to be corrected, I refunded the former just in case. I guess this might serve as a "heads up" to anyone thinking of purchasing the VP trinket.

If anyone has seen a blue post addressing the stacking procs, please let me know.

Thanks in advance.

#190 Saan

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 03:24 PM

Was it the issue that they simply were unable to go off at the same time, or was the issue that, when they did both proc, one took precedence over the other? If the latter, which one took precedence, and was there a pattern to it? If the former, did you try and determine if they share the same ICD?

#191 dommy

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:38 PM

Was it the issue that they simply were unable to go off at the same time, or was the issue that, when they did both proc, one took precedence over the other? If the latter, which one took precedence, and was there a pattern to it? If the former, did you try and determine if they share the same ICD?


According to a blue post, has a real proc per minute of 0.56 with an ICD of only 22 seconds. Someone on wowhead did math and because of the rppm of 0.56, it realistically procs every 107s ((1 / 0.56) * 60) = ~107s, which is roughly about what the ICD is of : 105s.

Now that you mention it, while I was testing them out on a dummy, after the initial buff from , I never saw it again, so you could be correct in that took precedence. Also, if the 105s ICD and the ~107s proc are strictly enforced, then theoretically both buffs should trigger almost right after the other. However, I did not personally experience this.

#192 fierydemise

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 05:28 PM

Also, if the 105s ICD and the ~107s proc are strictly enforced, then theoretically both buffs should trigger almost right after the other.

That assumption right there is your problem, RPPM trinkets can exhibit quite substantial deviation from their expected proc interval because there is no ICD to enforce the interval, instead you simply have a low chance chance to proc on every ability.

#193 dommy

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 05:42 PM

That assumption right there is your problem, RPPM trinkets can exhibit quite substantial deviation from their expected proc interval because there is no ICD to enforce the interval, instead you simply have a low chance chance to proc on every ability.


I didn't intend it to be an assumption and tried to qualify the statement by saying "if the cooldowns are strictly enforced." If you're right in that there's just a super low proc chance, then I guess my concern is that I never experienced a simultaneous proc while experimenting with both trinkets. Even with low proc chances, I think I should have seen it at some point. And that alone was enough for me to refund the rep trinket.

#194 fierydemise

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 05:45 PM

Also you are not counting the impact of haste on the proc interval. RPPM procs/second = RPPM*haste/60 so seconds per proc would be 60/(RPPM*haste). Given your 19.72% haste the expected proc interval would be just under 90 seconds.

#195 Simonhowl

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 08:26 AM

@dommy
Also if you refer to the 522 ilvl Renataki's Soul Charm then the proc rate will be lower still due to the way the new ilvl proc scaling works, which in turn would raise the average proc interval.

The proc frequency changes based on the ilvl of the trinket:

541 ilevel = 112.88% proc multiplier
535 ilevel = 106.74% proc multiplier
528 ilevel = 100.00% proc multiplier
522 ilevel = 94.56% proc multiplier
502 ilevel = 78.49% proc multiplier
463 ilevel = 54.57% proc multiplier

Proc rate multiplied by 0.1 for non-agility specs. Proc rate multiplied by 0.25 against player controlled units. Proc rate multiplied by 1/(1.15^((528-ItemLevel)/15) for the various Item Level versions of the trinket.

Source:
PTR Class and Set Bonus Issues, Part III - Forums - World of Warcraft

#196 Astrylian

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 09:49 AM

@dommy
Also if you refer to the 522 ilvl Renataki's Soul Charm then the proc rate will be lower still due to the way the new ilvl proc scaling works, which in turn would raise the average proc interval.

The proc frequency changes based on the ilvl of the trinket:

541 ilevel = 112.88% proc multiplier
535 ilevel = 106.74% proc multiplier
528 ilevel = 100.00% proc multiplier
522 ilevel = 94.56% proc multiplier
502 ilevel = 78.49% proc multiplier
463 ilevel = 54.57% proc multiplier

Proc rate multiplied by 0.1 for non-agility specs. Proc rate multiplied by 0.25 against player controlled units. Proc rate multiplied by 1/(1.15^((528-ItemLevel)/15) for the various Item Level versions of the trinket.

Source:
PTR Class and Set Bonus Issues, Part III - Forums - World of Warcraft



You misunderstand. That "Proc rate multiplied by..." part only applies to the Rune of Re-origination.
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#197 pinkshirtbadman

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:20 PM

I apologize if this has been discussed, but I acquired and and after about an hour of messing around with it, including a 15 minute session on dummies, it seems as though the procs don't stack. Regardless of whether this is intended or something that needs to be corrected, I refunded the former just in case. I guess this might serve as a "heads up" to anyone thinking of purchasing the VP trinket.

If anyone has seen a blue post addressing the stacking procs, please let me know.

Thanks in advance.

From what I've seen and I don't have logs to back this up at the moment, but after several, hours of raids, five mans and sitting on dummies what Ive seen is

The buff from can proc if you already have the buff from on you.
However the reverse is not true. I never once got superluminal from while I had or had recently had blades from the Soul Charm almost as if the soul charm was resetting the ICD on Vicious tailsman.

Upon further examination it appears the times I was getting both was just crazy luck that they'd both proc at exactly the same time. It seems after sitting on the dummies for awhile I can only ever get ONE to proc the entire fight, whichever one goes off first in the fight seems to be the only one that will for the rest of the encounter.
I don't really imagine this is intended, as they're completely different styles of buff, despite both proccing agility, also since you can get both at the same time ( this would only happen once, near the start of the fight).

I've put in a ticket, but I don't know that I'll get a specific response. if so I'll share it here.

Last edit, I promise, my apologies.
I am now getting both procs all fight long, mostly staggered, but occasionally at the same time, I kept going until I got both at once starting with blades and both at once starting with superluminal. Vanished and repeated on a new encounter and got the same results.
Either it got fixed in the last 30 minutes while I was logged out (which I find unlikely) or all I can advise is if you're having problems with both going off at once, try un-equiping them and re-equiping them, that's the only change I made between attempts

#198 Knarcus

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 04:05 PM

The T6 Slice and Dice Bonus was changed, it no longer grants 5 energy every 2 seconds, and the 45% Slice and Dice it provides is lost once you lose the 2 piece T6 buff by any means.

However, I still wondered, how much the T6 bonus is really worth. Of course you would not want to lose the current T15 or T14 bonus, but one specialty of T6 is, that it has 8 pieces, meaning you can obtain both T15 4p and T6 2p at the same time.
So I went out and got myself a wrist and boots, since they are items of the lowest Item budget and gemmed and enchanted them with the best enchants and gems possible, still the amount of stats lost was enormous.

Shadowcraft proposed a DPS loss of about 6000 dps for the bracers and 7400 for the boots.

With the T6 pieces I went on to LFR to see how I would perform, it didn't turn out too bad, but it was just LFR with random bloodlust going.
http://www.worldoflo...ce/?s=287&e=593 - First LFR try, I slacked on rupture, only 90% uptime
Details for Nihna - 13-03 15:47 - Moo Fighters - World of Logs - second LFR try, I managed my CDs better, still only 93.6% Rupture
Analyze - 13-03 19:46 - Moo Fighters - World of Logs - third try, this time in normal mode. I died at 93% of the fight passed, therefore dps would have been a little higher

Analyze - 13-03 19:46 - Moo Fighters - World of Logs - Horridon normal with T6 (multi rup + marked for death)
Analyze - 13-03 19:46 - Moo Fighters - World of Logs - Council normal with T6 multi rub + marked for death

I used it on Tortos for a while, but then switched back to regular gear.
What I am trying to say here, is that I think there is potential in using 2 T6 pieces, even post nerf.
The bonus only applies mostly to single target fights via Slice and Dice, I am not sure how it interacts with RPPM trinkets, I think they don't really help with gearing towards using T6 bonus because they favor haste.
I think the damage the T6 provides mainly comes from more DP procs and therefore high mastery.

What are your thoughts on the T6 bonus?

#199 Nalinaa

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 06:33 PM

To give you a very rough estimate on how good that bonus is I am going to use shadowcraft to switch from dwarf (0 dps bonus for assassination) to goblin (1% haste which is approximately 1/5th the dps you would get from that set bonus)

DPS as blood elf (default):134968.4

DPS as dwarf (no dps boost):134420

DPS as goblin (1% auto attack haste): 135076.3

The difference between dwarf to goblin was 656.3. The minor differences in starting stats and the scaling with haste as you get more making it better or worse especially with the RPPM trinkets will skew the actual results, but the set bonus should be worth about 3281.5 DPS.

Even with more generous estimations and actual math there is no way I believe that set bonus will make up for the loss of stats from the two pieces of gear you replaced. In fact with the pieces you replaced you could probably gem/enchant/reforge all haste and you would get almost as much if not more auto attack haste than it would have provided (2125 haste) not to mention the boost to energy regen.

I could go on about losing other stats like the agi and stam (for survivability) scaling with raid buffs among other things but it would be hitting a dead horse.




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