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Like Water - The Brewmaster Discussion Thread


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#1 Pisshands

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 05:48 AM

This post has been promoted to an article


Edited by Pisshands, 10 December 2013 - 01:10 PM.


#2 Netukka

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 06:01 PM

Good thing that someone made a thread like this for BM as well. Nice overall information. Few things that caught my eye though.

-You mention Elusive Brew is a function of crit/hit/exp/haste. Since auto attacks use a single roll system, hit/exp values do not matter when considering EB generation. Only crit (and haste slightly) matter.
-On point of taking unnecessary damage. One method is purposefully sitting down, especially at the start of a pull. Just let your healers know before you take too many crits for fun.
-I think you are downplaying value of Chi Wave as a reactionary heal a bit, especially considering current PTR patch notes. Even in its current form, it can act as a 100k+ instant heal that also bounces to self/others. Just macro it to hit yourself first. Next patch it will be even better, healing for insane amounts AND being free. Just cant spam it as much (which you really dont do anyway, unless you arent tanking).

Also one point on stamina, mastery and certain bosses forcing us to do things differently. So far Ive noticed on Grand Empress HC 25 (and I presume Sha of Fear has same issue) that you HAVE TO reforge/gem/enchant/gear for some extra stamina/mastery. Even if crit/haste provide better damage reduction per point, sometimes RNG is against you and you get bursted down. I suggest keeping stamina trinkets in inventory, for example DMF + msv trash or VP trinket and being ready to reforge for much more mastery just to eliminate some aspects of RNG. Even if getting triple hit through EB on Sha of Fear is extremely unlikely, it CAN happen and you dont want to be one shot when it does.

Again though, good thing someone put the effort in to make this thread.

#3 Pisshands

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 08:28 PM

Good catch on EB gearing and sitting down, complete oversights on my part. As for Chi Wave, any downplaying its value on my part is completely unintended.

I think your final statement about needing Stamina and Mastery for H-25 Shek'zeer, et. al., very strongly exemplifies one of my basic thoughts on the class. Monk scaling with gear is extremely high, probably the best of any tank class. This makes sense because we gear and play very much like a pure dps. As a result, when we are not well-geared (beginning of an expansion/tier), this puts us in the unenviable position of having to deviate from our best practices for damage reduction by acquiring Stamina in order to stay alive.

If you want a really striking example of how bad our low-gear scaling is, take a Monk into a challenge mode, then immediately afterward take a DK into the same challenge mode. It is night and day, and the blame rests solely on our low starting health and armor.

Appreciate the positive feedback and would love for someone mathematically gifted to help me in streamlining section 13.

#4 Netukka

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 11:31 PM

I think section 13 looks OK in general - As long as its clear that stat values change depending on your current gear and people shouldnt "blindly" trust the tables presented, even if they are close to truth. Values of haste for example change a bit depending whether you are running ascendance or not (and values of ascendance can change depending on how much SCK/EH you use).

And about t14 4-set bonus.
-Works for yourself for 20% increase in absorbtion size.
-Works for the increased self heals during guard, 30->36%.
-Works for shields summoned by statue.

#5 Bemxuu

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 12:25 AM

I am not backed up by any viable math, just my experience, but I hope that counts.

Though as it is a popular fact that reducing total damage taken and doing some damage on top of that is a good thing to do, any tanks' primary task is to survive by himself. I've been on few top 5 logs at the beginning of MSV raids while I was blindly following TDR priorities, but I kept dying much more often than our second tank, who's honestly not even close to being called skilled. After discovering that fact I decided to set myself a threshold of zero healing survival. I aimed for 4 hits with nothing but Shuffle on. That took some offensive stam gemming at the beginning, but right now I find it more effective to reach it through stacking mastery, since I can actually avoid all the damage from stagger by PBing. Ok, all the serious damage. Currently I have 10% mastery (4 base+6 from gear) unbuffed and without elixirs - and i still want more.
If the fight is magic-heavy (Lei Shi, Elegon), I put on my stam trinkets; if there are huge bursts of physical damage (Meljarak and Shek'zeer would be good instances of that), I put on my passive mastery trinkets; for fights that don't absolutely demand me going for either one of those (Gara'Jal, Garalon), I put on my agility/damage trinkets. Trinkets and consumables swapping is a really good way of preparing yourself for new challenge without crippling your performance on previous ones.
One might say that my obsession with damage smoothing causes me to take more damage after all. That's true, but let's recall Cata. Who were the best tanks? Paladins. Not because they took least damage, but because it came predictably. With low mastery you might face unlucky streaks in dodging damage. Even if you won't get healed, it will cause your healer to switch to mana intensive heals which wastes all the mana you conserved through your TDR-style play. However, high mastery is really useless if you don't make enough Chi for Shuffle, PBs and Guards. I currently sit at 8% hit+exp and 12,5 energy per second unbuffed with power strikes and I manage to keep up my Shuffle, maintain ZS HoT on me (it doesn't overheal much since I don't PB light stagger) and Guard on cooldown - that's done through usage of cooldowns that reduces the required amount of PBs and through taking advantage of lulz in DTPS.

Now some feedback.
1. I believe Dizzying Haze doesn't work on bosses. That's why you don't get the DoT from Breath, by the way. You can check logs for Brewmasters on Stone Guards. Highest dps parses are from monks that tank both dogs, so they get hit frequently, still there are zero melee misses in the log from any of the dogs, no Dizzying Haze debuff applied through Keg Smashing and no ticks from Breath (which happen if the target has Haze on them).
2. Your way of using Guard is viable, but not the only viable. After Vengeance ramp-up nerf (let's say our thanks to tanks abusing their Ardent Defender on Spirit Kings, whoever that class might be ;) ) you don't get that much Vengeance from a single damaging attack, so it makes sense to use it BEFORE that one and utilize the healing bonus to top yourself for that one. Also, it's worth mentioning that Glyph of Guard used to increase Statue's Guard (i don't recall testing it recently).
3. The amount of staggered damage does not increase too much during FB. With glyphed version of it one would jump from 50 to 70 stagger percentage, which is 40% increase, but total damage taken will be reduced by 25%, so that's just 1.4*0,75=1,05 => 5% increase in Stagger damage.
4. I figured out I had to switch off my stam gear for my blue WW gear for Garalon due to one funny fact that is there on the DH tooltip, but many tanks don't pay attention to it until they encounter the same problem: bosses' attacks do not do sufficient damage to proc DH. Out of curiosity and boredom I checked stam consumables+stam trinkets - and I didn't spend a single charge of DH through the course of fight. So, don't do that, don't go too crazy about effective health.
5. You should mention charges on Zen. There are abilities that consume charges. Most important instance - Lei Shi. She will not break your Zen, but she will spend 5 charges quite fast.
6. On fights where it might be essential to use Avert Harm, you should line it up with Zen. For instance, AH will kill you on heroic Ta'yak if you try to pop it for Unseen Strike: you get the damage from the raid, then you get your share of damage that kills you. However, on fights where you don't risk being one-shotted, you can use it with just Guard and GotOx spheres.
7. SCK is great for generating GotOx spheres, but you cannot consume them while you are still spinning. Yep, SCK cripples you: you cannot self heal, you cannot interrupt spells or push your OHSH-buttons and worst of all you cannot even pick up GotOx spheres. Try gathering some, hitting SCK and moving on top of them - spheres will not be consumed until you stop spinning. They are pretty much reverse Sparks from Heroic Will - they take some to start doing their work. And, it is not mentioned in talents section that PS is a poor talent for AoE-heavy fights where it is more beneficial to keep spinning for better damage/raid guards. You can still fit some in, lining jabs, kegs and TPs with picking up the spheres, though.
8. EH behaves funny sometimes. If you keep ping-ponging up and down through 35% threshold and constantly putting EH on cooldown, you might not see EH's cooldown reset for some subsequent drops in health. I believe it has sort of a ICD on number of times you reset it going up and down, but I did not encounter the bug too often to be worried about it. I think last time I saw it, it was our progression kill of normal Sha, lol ;) Another worthy note is that it makes sense not to use on cooldown. From my DK experience: you might heal more by hitting it on CD, but it makes more sense to hit it when neither your heal, nor your healers' heals will overheal. Turn on your battle text and hit EH whenever you encounter a streak of hits that you consider dangerous. For me that would be 3 hits. For Pisshands it might be 2, if he doesn't have that much effective health. This way you always can pull your HP back to safe zone without making your heals switch to ineffective healing. Really, don't use it if it's just one meaningless hit - let HoTs and weak heals do their work.
9. Worth mentioning: Transcendence could be used to evade some bosses. Until recent nerfs, it made perfect sense to reset Spirit Kings whenever the next one was not Subetai.
10. Roll is useful when you are slowed for whatever the reason, but still need to move quickly. Say, your DPS failed at killing Courage in time, so hope for the best and roll if hopes were not enough. Also, rolling backwards and Clashing moves you about where you stood before, so no annoying repositioning for DPS.
On a side note: Protectors are one-tankable in normal, even in Elite. But that's an off-topic statement.
11. Some creatures are immune to Leer taunt. I guess, it's the same restriction as for Earth Elemental or AotD.
12. Monks' elixir anyone? The name speaks for itself, y'know ;) It's battle elixir, so you can use it with Mantid.
13. Hero loses some of its defensive value if it's used for final burn. You'll just end up having some residual uptime on Shuffle after the fight ends, so you probably should use your healing tier more often in such cases. Excess Shuffle uptime = poorly spent Chi.

Despite high number of additions/corrections, I am very enthusiastic about your work. I always thought BMs need a guide with more stress on practice than theory and you did put a lot of information together, which is invaluable for beginners.

#6 Pisshands

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 02:09 AM

I think section 13 looks OK in general - As long as its clear that stat values change depending on your current gear and people shouldnt "blindly" trust the tables presented, even if they are close to truth. Values of haste for example change a bit depending whether you are running ascendance or not (and values of ascendance can change depending on how much SCK/EH you use).

And about t14 4-set bonus.
-Works for yourself for 20% increase in absorbtion size.
-Works for the increased self heals during guard, 30->36%.
-Works for shields summoned by statue.


Thank you for that.

The thing about putting hard numerical values next to statistics, especially when considering Haste and Chi generation, is that they are situational values based upon an ideal scenario in which you are allowed to tank a boss from the beginning of the fight until the end with no downtime, no AoE, no magic damage, etc. Moreover, they are based upon an expectation of perfect performance - no Keg Smash delayed by a global, no loss of uptime on Shuffle, no wasted Elusive Brew. As such, these and any stat weights should only be treated as a guide, with intelligent consideration given to fight specifics.
100% Shuffle uptime is not nearly as valuable on fights that feature a taunt switch or downtime of incoming damage (Will of the Emperor), and Haste becomes less valuable on these fights than in the ideal Patchwerk fight.

SCK is great for generating GotOx spheres, but you cannot consume them while you are still spinning. Yep, SCK cripples you: you cannot self heal, you cannot interrupt spells or push your OHSH-buttons and worst of all you cannot even pick up GotOx spheres. Try gathering some, hitting SCK and moving on top of them - spheres will not be consumed until you stop spinning.


Actually, GotOx orbs just take about two seconds from being spawned to being usable. It's not an issue with SCK, it's incidental that SCK lasts around 2 seconds from the time of an orb spawn at the beginning of the SCK until the end of the channel. Good post overall, appreciate the input.

#7 Blehninja

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 06:04 AM

I would just like to say awesome work with the guide!

I myself picked up a few tricks I hadn’t thought of. And just strengthen that I have been doing the right thing since the start.

Some comments regarding lower level raiding, (my guild just got MV normal down a few weeks ago) which would be good for people just starting out monk tanking.
- Chi burst can be a quite good heal for the raid when its used at good vengeance, throwing around 100k healing is amazing; I often use it when tank switching to give the healers some help with the start dmg.
- Don’t despair when your healers have a hard time healing you when starting out, my healer had to learn how I take damage. And healing gets easier with every gear upgrade.

#8 Bemxuu

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 09:26 AM

Actually, GotOx orbs just take about two seconds from being spawned to being usable. It's not an issue with SCK, it's incidental that SCK lasts around 2 seconds from the time of an orb spawn at the beginning of the SCK until the end of the channel. Good post overall, appreciate the input.

Could there be a limit on spheres then? I clearly recall stepping on my spheres a good minute after Meljarak fight began, but still forced to wait until they got sucked in (and there were many - good share of them should have disappeared, no?). It's either SCK or rapid sphere refreshing given finite limit on their number.
I also recalled some other points this night:
1. When it's absolutely necessary, you can switch your stance to Tiger to DPS. Usually, that's either an all-in burn when enrage is a few seconds away and you're not tanking or early burn when you have some time to do damage before switching stance. Switching stances wipes your Chi to 1 point and wipes your Shuffle, so mind that and switch to Ox Stance in advance to stack your shuffle back for the latter scenario.
2. SCK still cripples BMs even if I made an ass of myself with spheres. You stop your auto-attack during SCK, so for fights with extended AoE phases you generate less EB stacks. Taking a glance at Meljarak Normal: Kuroiwolf is dealing with adds at the beginning, so he's spinning a lot and uptime on his EB is poor, to say the least. It goes up dramatically after he stops spinning. Still, there's a good way to cope with that - make a short break inbetween SCKs. Be it Keg Smash, TP or just half a second of waiting, give yourself some time to land that autoattack unless you're drowning in energy. For a fights with short periods of AoE do not bother. On Elegon's transition p3 to p1 you might find yourself tanking the adds (don't, if you can; if your raid knows how to use threat wipes, Tricks and Misdirects, you can kite the guys around throwing some kegs at first and then stunlock them afterwards). However, this AoE should not last more than 15 seconds, so it's not a big deal at all.
3. Ah, recalled. With all the mobility and saves you have, you can win some time even after the boss enrages. On One-Big-Nuke encounters you can hit your Zen for that hit. I survived both Elegon's and Garalon's enrage casts (which didn't help me much on neither, since Elegon killed me like second afterwards and Garalon simply despawns a second after the jump). If it's a matter of a second, you should spend it on enrage to win some time, since losing dps time by using it earlier is generally a bad idea. For Run-Fast-Hit-Hard-type enrages you can exploit your mobility. Simply start rolling backwards half a second before the boss enrages, then use your transcendance to get to the other side of the room and hit all of your defensives. If your fellow raiders keep track of who's next on threat table, you can call out Chimaeron tactic. This actually helped me twice - we managed to kill H Spirit Kings by winning enough time to get the crazy guy to Cowardice phase and I won some time on Protectors Normal Elite kill.

#9 Spleener

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 05:31 PM

Slight correction on racials:

For all monk specs, the Blood Elf racial Arcane Torrent gives 1 chi, not energy or mana. So it's effectively 1 jab/40 energy every 120 seconds, or 0.33333 (repeating, of course) energy/second.
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#10 Pisshands

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:50 PM

1. When it's absolutely necessary, you can switch your stance to Tiger to DPS. Usually, that's either an all-in burn when enrage is a few seconds away and you're not tanking or early burn when you have some time to do damage before switching stance. Switching stances wipes your Chi to 1 point and wipes your Shuffle, so mind that and switch to Ox Stance in advance to stack your shuffle back for the latter scenario.


Here is the math on Tiger v. Black Ox dps, based upon an eight-second window and my energy per second values using Ascension with 8232 Haste (19.37%, 15.1 EpS). Tiger Stance is roughly a 12% single-target dps increase, although the inability to use Keg Smash and the loss of 10% energy regen makes it a decided dps loss in multi-target.

DPS Breakdown
W = White Swings
D = Average Weapon DPS
A = Attack Power
J = Jab – .539D + .136A
TP = Tiger Palm – 1.079D + .273A
BK = Blackout Kick – 2.56D + .647A
KS = Keg Smash – 2.92D + .738A

Tiger Stance
1.2 * (4W + 3 * TP + 2.74 * J + 2.74 * BK)
1.2 * (4W + 3 * (1.079D + .273A) + 2.74 * (.539D + .136A) + 2.74 * (2.56D + .647A))
1.2 * (4W + (3.237D + .711A) + (1.477D + .373A) + (7.014D + 1.773A))
1.2 * (4W + 11.728D + 2.857A)
4.8W + 14.074D + 3.428A

Ox Stance
4W + 3 * TP + KS + 2.02 * J + 2.01 * BK
4W + 3 * (1.079D + .273A) + (2.92D + .738A) + 2.02 * (.539D + .136A) + 2.01 * (2.56D + .647A)
4W + (3.237D + .711A) + (2.92D + .738A) + (1.089D + .275A) + (5.146D + 1.300A)
4W + 12.392D + 3.024A

I think the bit about kiting bosses at an enrage is pretty well covered under mobility and the concepts of kiting in more normal situations. Although Transcendence requires a few seconds to prepare, Monks have a great kit for boss kiting.

Slight correction on racials:

For all monk specs, the Blood Elf racial Arcane Torrent gives 1 chi, not energy or mana. So it's effectively 1 jab/40 energy every 120 seconds, or 0.33333 (repeating, of course) energy/second.


Good catch. Appreciated, updated.

#11 Bemxuu

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 10:00 PM

I've seen that too somewhere, but i wasn't willing to give up my Ox stance thus resetting my Chi and Shuffle :) but i recall being fourth BM dps-wise on our first WoE kill and all three guys ahead of me were: a) asian B) using tiger stance. I don't know which factor had a greater influence :)

#12 Neara

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:33 AM

I made a habit to switch to tiger every time another tank taunts, nice to see that it's even a dps increase single target. It's just impossible to keep up your rotation otherwise on fights like lei shi and empress etc. where i am at 120k+ vengeance i'd have the boss back on me in 2 attacks and risk a wipe (lei shi it's not that rare that i push 200-250k). Tank dps matters nowadays and it's just a waste of time to stop for 2-5 seconds to let the other tank get a lead.

#13 promdates

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:54 AM

The one benefit to staying in tank stance for tank swaps is to stack shuffle, so you can use your chi for other things when you're actively tanking.
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#14 Pisshands

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:07 AM

I made a habit to switch to tiger every time another tank taunts, nice to see that it's even a dps increase single target. It's just impossible to keep up your rotation otherwise on fights like lei shi and empress etc. where i am at 120k+ vengeance i'd have the boss back on me in 2 attacks and risk a wipe (lei shi it's not that rare that i push 200-250k). Tank dps matters nowadays and it's just a waste of time to stop for 2-5 seconds to let the other tank get a lead.


Well, the mathematical breakdown of threat swapping is as follows:
  • All attacks generate a flat value of threat.
  • You pull threat when you reach 110% of the current target's threat value (110% in melee, 130% at range).
  • Taunting sets the caster's threat equal to the target's target's threat value and causes the target to change... targets.
The way this tends to work in execution is that, excluding fights without a hard threat wipe, pulling threat after a taunt switch is much more prone to occur early in a fight than later. I am very careful with threat on the first taunt switch of a fight. After that, not as much.

I definitely agree that the biggest asset afforded by Tiger Stance is the ability to continue dpsing without pulling threat.
Speaking from my own experience, my OT at the beginning of the expansion was a Warrior who had significant threat problems, and if I attempted to dps in Ox Stance within 10 seconds of a taunt I would invariably pull aggro. It was nerve-wracking. Hand of Salvation was really useful until the nerf/buffed the hell out of it (depends on your perspective) in 5.1.
While Tiger Stance is highly beneficial, I have since tried another method for threat issues: I got a Blood DK.
I gave him a heroic Starshatter and the problem has pretty much dissipated.
I understand you can't always choose your offtank, but Monk and DK compliment each other extremely well and have reasonably competitive threat and damage output without stepping on each other's toes for gear.
If you can't replace your OT, I suppose switching to Tiger Stance works almost as well.

The one benefit to staying in tank stance for tank swaps is to stack shuffle, so you can use your chi for other things when you're actively tanking.


This was the only way we got our first Heroic Gara'jal kill. I had a really long Shuffle built up, so I used Chi Wave on cooldown and PB'ed every Medium Stagger during the 20% enrage. Monk damage taken models are incredible in situations in which we can stack up a long Shuffle with impunity and allow ourselves to be more liberal with Chi for self-healing and PB. Not that you would stop Blackout Kicking entirely - you will still want the dps, but having the room to purify Staggers a hit sooner on average without any fear of losing Shuffle makes an enrage phase a lot easier for healers.

#15 Netukka

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 06:44 PM

Does anyone have experience running two monk tanks in 10mans and more specifically, can you do some special tactics with Statue shields? Since login problems messed our raid up we did 10man and this part from empress intrigued me...

Expression Editor - 30-12 16:46 - Netukka failing - World of Logs

You can see that I put over million damage absorb shields on 7 out of 8 non tanks in the raid. Obviously all bosses cant have phases like empress adds where you get crazy vengeance and do aoe dps, but with dual brewmasters you could regularly shield the whole raid with Guards. Maybe skip like amber shaper explosions with having them up or something?

Also Xuen dying because it taunts stuff is really fucking stupid. I wish blizz just be removed it or a glyph added to remove it.

#16 Pisshands

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 09:00 PM

Does anyone have experience running two monk tanks in 10mans and more specifically, can you do some special tactics with Statue shields? Since login problems messed our raid up we did 10man and this part from empress intrigued me...

Expression Editor - 30-12 16:46 - Netukka failing - World of Logs

You can see that I put over million damage absorb shields on 7 out of 8 non tanks in the raid. Obviously all bosses cant have phases like empress adds where you get crazy vengeance and do aoe dps, but with dual brewmasters you could regularly shield the whole raid with Guards. Maybe skip like amber shaper explosions with having them up or something?

Also Xuen dying because it taunts stuff is really fucking stupid. I wish blizz just be removed it or a glyph added to remove it.


I think the interaction of two Black Ox Statues is worth exploring. Will they overwrite or stack with the other's Guard? Will they Guard the other Brewmaster? Does that overwrite or stack with the Brewmaster's Guard? I don't know the answer to any of these questions, but it's definitely worth testing.

Not to deviate too far from the topic of the thread, but yes, the notion that Xuen taunts for Brewmasters makes zero sense. If you hate that Xuen taunts (you should), go to the official forums and make noise. I have, and enough noise about this bad idea will bring the horrible design to their attention and result in a rework.
To be clear, Xuen is not a problem in 95% of raiding, I just do not understand how the taunt made its way through the iterative design process:
"We should add more utility to Xuen than just being a damage cooldown." "How about a taunt?" "I'm sure that Windwalkers and Fistweavers would appreciate that." "No, let's give it to Brewmasters. They're tanks, so let's give them a tank pet." "Perfect."
Tanks need to be pummeled for Vengeance. The very notion that a tank class would want a pet to taunt off of them is reflective of a design philosophy older than Vengeance. If they wanted Xuen to provide utility to Brewmasters, he should provide a shield or self-healing to the Monk while he is out. That said, I don't feel he needs any utility for Brewmasters whatsoever.

Taunt should be completely removed from baseline Xuen and a new minor glyph should be added:
Glyph of the Angry Feline - Xuen the White Tiger will now taunt targets affected by Crackling Tiger Lightning.

Edited to posit an idea and a lesson:
If Xuen gave the Brewmaster Vengeance equal to the damage he takes and had a damage reduction mechanic of some sort, his taunt would actually be mighty useful.
Let's say Xuen gets redesigned to transfer Vengeance, is capable of taunting bosses (active taunt, controlled by the Monk), benefits from the Monk's Shuffle, Staggers damage onto the Monk and is affected by the Monk's self-heals. Drop the duration from 45 seconds to 15 (12, maybe) and you have an amazing, unique tanking cooldown that fits what I imagine they were trying to approximate with the addition of the passive Xuen taunt.
Now, I'm not a huge fan of the idea, despite having come up with it. It's a bit clunky and feels fertile for bugs and cheesily exploiting mechanics, but it's an example of how taking an absolutely terrible basic idea and developing it further can make something extremely useful. Negativity is gratifying, but it isn't usually a path to progress.

#17 Neara

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 10:09 PM

On the topic of Xuen .. who else is annoyed that he prefers cleavetargets instead of maintargets. so damn frustrating on windlord heroic dmg phase and after the first keg smash he switches to an add >.> ... not to mention that with high vengeance his dmg is so high that keg smash isn't enough to keep him from pulling aggro. Tonight he kept pulling subetai off me while quiang was still up, even resulted in a wipe because subetai than picked me as an rain of arrows target after pillaging away from me.

#18 Bemxuu

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:59 AM

This was the only way we got our first Heroic Gara'jal kill. I had a really long Shuffle built up, so I used Chi Wave on cooldown and PB'ed every Medium Stagger during the 20% enrage. Monk damage taken models are incredible in situations in which we can stack up a long Shuffle with impunity and allow ourselves to be more liberal with Chi for self-healing and PB. Not that you would stop Blackout Kicking entirely - you will still want the dps, but having the room to purify Staggers a hit sooner on average without any fear of losing Shuffle makes an enrage phase a lot easier for healers.

Out first H Gara'jal was exactly the opposite: we went there w/ 10ppl raid as opposed to our regular 25's. We were 3healing (2 disc+hpally), so it was only the enrage timer we were struggling with. so I was dpsing in Tiger Stance and switching to Ox for last 10 seconds before banishment. We killed him a split second after he hit enrage (i think... DBM timer stated that we were supposed to be dead by that moment). It really depends on your strategy and on whether you need more survivability or more damage. Another instance would be one of our Ta'yak wipes. We screwed up with leaving at 11%, so we had to run the whole thing once again. When the smoke cleared, we had 4 dps and 3 healers alive, as well as 2 tanks. It made perfect sense to ignore survivability and push for damage.

Dual brewmasters you could regularly shield the whole raid with Guards. Maybe skip like amber shaper explosions with having them up or something?

Also Xuen dying because it taunts stuff is really fucking stupid. I wish blizz just be removed it or a glyph added to remove it.


I doubt it will ever be a game-breaking tactic. You cannot control who's getting the shield, so entirely ignoring fights' mechanic through Statue abuse is, to say the least, unlikely. Rallying Cry/Aura Mastery/HotW heals, on the other hand, are done on demand and regardless of whether you're smashing smth and get smashed back. Of course, there are fights that include ALL the gimmicks that benefit Statue:
1. Damage increase
2. High uptime on boss
3. Constant AoE to eat through Guard.
Heroic Will would be the first instance that comes to mind.

Sometimes Xuen's taunt is a blessing :) whenever there is an opportunity to get one or more of those adds off me by using him with proper timing, I do it. Elegon, Meljarak, Shek'zeer.. Call me an old-school (or old fart, if you like it more), but I still believe that tanks' primary tasks are keeping everyone else from being attacked and surviving themselves. Therefore, I champion trading some damage for some survival in most cases (2 Gara's would be exceptions - Gara'jal and Garalon).
I've never seen him taunting the boss though o_O

Also, Pisshands, how come you didn't include our Taunt in mobility section? It's 50% speed increase does wonders. There are many occasions when you would like something to move faster. On example of MSV:
1. Guards. Faster cat swaps ftw!
2. Feng Heroic. Moving him away from his shield is nice. Do not taunt him while he's running to pick another weapon, though - you don't want him to move faster in this case.
3. Gara'jal. Pretty much no use. May be initial pull to cut on running-in time for melee.
4. Kings. Relocating bosses after Flanking Orders, moving the Crazed guy out of sphere leftovers and flanks and so on.
5. Elegon. Rapidly moving adds away from the buff zone.
6. Will. I'd say, there is no use for speed part of our taunt. Unless you want to troll another tank by speeding up his Courage, of course.

#19 Netukka

Netukka

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 06:21 PM

I doubt it will ever be a game-breaking tactic. You cannot control who's getting the shield, so entirely ignoring fights' mechanic through Statue abuse is, to say the least, unlikely. Rallying Cry/Aura Mastery/HotW heals, on the other hand, are done on demand and regardless of whether you're smashing smth and get smashed back. Of course, there are fights that include ALL the gimmicks that benefit Statue:
1. Damage increase
2. High uptime on boss
3. Constant AoE to eat through Guard.
Heroic Will would be the first instance that comes to mind.

Thats why I said double BM, not just one. As long as there isnt constant AoE damage going on (like H will), you can shield the whole raid. Think Blade Lord, there isnt much aoe damage going on before Unseen Strike so you could get statue shield on everyone and just eat it without cooldowns. Or on Amber Shaper in p2, if most slimes are dead in later p2 you could shield the raid and eat amber explosion (for whatever reason). Just examples what you could do that might allow some weirdness in t15.

Preventing constant AoE damage like H will is nice, but wasnt really what I was going for.

Problem with Xuen isnt that taunting mobs is necessarily "bad" (unless we are talking spirit kings, thats just stupid), its that more often than not it dies because it taunts adds. Also since it acts as a guardian rather than pet healers have a hard time getting around to heal it.

#20 Pisshands

Pisshands

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:19 PM

Also, Pisshands, how come you didn't include our Taunt in mobility section? It's 50% speed increase does wonders. There are many occasions when you would like something to move faster.


It was in the wordy, unreadable first draft, and presently on the to-add list.




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